Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I see. I should get around to watching season 2 of Log Horizon.
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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
I see. I should get around to watching season 2 of Log Horizon.
captjohnboyd
Member
I think it's becoming more and more clear that MiB isn't as sadistic as we are first lead to believe and I'm also willing to be whether the theory holds true or not that something seriously traumatic is going to happen to William so to me it's still a distinct possibility that I'm neither for nor against
Why not? All he has to experience is the reality of the park. The realization that none of it is real and his actions really have no consequences. That's the only barrier.
Night Hunter
Banned
Another thing speaking against the William = MiB theory, people are speculating that Logan and William enter the Park shortly after it opens, but Logan mentions several times that he has been there a few times and never made it out to Pariah.
I think we started to see a change in William this episode. Shooting the Union soldiers, the "no more pretending line"...there was a certain coldness in his eyes at times that highlighted he's letting himself go a bit.
I think Dolores is the key to his transformation. Betrayal, probably.
I think Dolores is the key to his transformation. Betrayal, probably.
MiamiWesker
Member
MIB is always wearing a tie around his neck, is he hiding that he was hung once? Maybe that will be the reveal, William getting strung up and escaping and then showing the scars on MIBs neck.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
i came into this thread just join the bernard is a host camp, which i assumed existed
i want my position on record.
Eh, the betrayal is just that she resets, forgets him.
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The Everyman
that's a very valid criticism if this theory pans out.
I'm fairly confident that they filmed a few different scenarios. Partly to help prevent leaks. Partly to allow for storyline adjustments without reshoots. And partly because of the multiple reshoots that did happen during the project's struggles.
If you look back at the fight scene in ep 2, MIB vs. Lawrence's cousins. MIB is straight up moving like a robot. Neck swivel, hip swivel, etc. But he moves like a human in other episodes. I'm sure plenty of the series was shot out of order, especially for the big name actors who had limited time to be on the set. I think MIB was supposed to be a robot at one point and then they changed their minds, but kept that fight footage because it looked cool and they couldn't or didn't want to reshoot that entire sequence for the sake of correcting body language.
Jimmi Simpson looks "enough" like Ed Harris to where they can go with it.
If you look back at the fight scene in ep 2, MIB vs. Lawrence's cousins. MIB is straight up moving like a robot. Neck swivel, hip swivel, etc. But he moves like a human in other episodes. I'm sure plenty of the series was shot out of order, especially for the big name actors who had limited time to be on the set. I think MIB was supposed to be a robot at one point and then they changed their minds, but kept that fight footage because it looked cool and they couldn't or didn't want to reshoot that entire sequence for the sake of correcting body language.
Jimmi Simpson looks "enough" like Ed Harris to where they can go with it.
None of that addresses the criticism.
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The Everyman
Yeah, I was just thinking about this. Also, they used to move like the old bartenderbot ford talks to does in the shop.
But maybe the bartender was pre alpha and the mechanical robots still have blood packs. It definitely didn't seem that way when Logan stabbed the old man's hand though.
I want this william = mib theory to be true, but it already feels a little flakey if it were.
How does CG young Ford and no CG young MiB break a narrative rule?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
It doesn't look robotic to me. Plus he gets hit with simunitions so he can't be a robot there.
It gives more purpose for MiB's character. If not for that it's just a random rich eccentric guy playing the game, who somehow is the only person to know about the deeper meaning to the park. That doesn't make much sense overall, and pretty unsatisfying as a character.
It could totally just be that Ed Harris moves somewhat stiffly because he is an older guy.
I think rather than point out specific things I should say that we shouldn't read too much into specifics because A) the show has had an extended production and a lot of changes may have taken place B) we're seeing things edited together that may not only have been filmed out of order, but individual scenes may be comprised of multiple takes filmed months apart and C) the showrunners are keeping a lot of open options depending on the show's renewal, if major cast members leave, etc.
How does that make any sense with all the MIB's actions in the pilot? Unless you think his entire role in the pilot was rewritten and reshot later on. Because this show wasn't ordered to series, the pilot was shot first.
He could have chosen the Black hat there. But he didn't
He will 30 years later
Doubt it as every other mention in previous eps have used the Swedish word for maze. It's just typical lazy and odd Swedish subtitles, as every other god damn show on that service :lol. Watching other shows makes it super clear that whoever is translating doesn't even watch the show as certain words or terms are often translated way out of context.
The cheapness would be the breaking of events that are presented in a causal chain, most notably (in my mind, anyway) Dolores bugging out and stumbling onto William in the woods.
I don't have the exact order of events written down for reference, but it was very much presented as being triggered by elements of what people are calling the 'present', and yet she stumbles into the 'past'. Cutting that into separate timelines would be like having someone throw a ball, then a cut to someone else catching it, and then hours later finding out that the person who threw the ball and the person who caught it were on the same field but 30 years apart, despite clearly being depicted as in the same spot at the same time -- multiplied by nearly every scene in the show.
You break basic causality and cinematic language, and you're just being a cheap asshole reaching for 'gotcha' moments. I'd like to think the show is more well thought out than that, even with the noted development problems. Even an unreliable narrator wouldn't (doesn't) allow for the world-class contortion this show would have to pull to patch multiple timelines together in a reasonable fashion.
I don't have the exact order of events written down for reference, but it was very much presented as being triggered by elements of what people are calling the 'present', and yet she stumbles into the 'past'. Cutting that into separate timelines would be like having someone throw a ball, then a cut to someone else catching it, and then hours later finding out that the person who threw the ball and the person who caught it were on the same field but 30 years apart, despite clearly being depicted as in the same spot at the same time -- multiplied by nearly every scene in the show.
You break basic causality and cinematic language, and you're just being a cheap asshole reaching for 'gotcha' moments. I'd like to think the show is more well thought out than that, even with the noted development problems. Even an unreliable narrator wouldn't (doesn't) allow for the world-class contortion this show would have to pull to patch multiple timelines together in a reasonable fashion.
That's true. Full disclosure I was against this theory until this episode and now so bought in.
If true I see it as the bookend of a mans life. Between what we know for a fact and assuming this is true William is heading straight for the incident which if he is MIB will change his life, get him pretty much unlimited access to the park, all because he stops it reaching its conclusion.
People are saying they don't see the change but think of this way. You stop the massacring of humans who you know are alive by hosts that maybe your not so sure, then 30 years to see the park from every angle, knowing both what the hosts are capable of and what they are made of. Plus you have the resources to find out a lot of stuff, about ford, about Arnold,information you didn't have when you stopped the it first time.
Possibly it's one mans attempt to if not right a wrong at least find out what the event that has took over his life to the point Westworld is his home really meant. What could have happened?
I can see all this, and I don't see his actions as much as black hatting as power running, he needs to get all the pieces in place.
This could all be wrong but if the theory is true it makes a lot of sense to me.
MiamiWesker
Member
I just watched MIB and Ford scene, when he talks about the outside world he says "the world WAS ..." he says was. So did something happen in the outside world?
Also why did he say he wanted to cut Ford open, is he a robot?
Also why did he say he wanted to cut Ford open, is he a robot?
I can't get over how great the whole premise of the show is.
It is a amazing we are getting a high budget sci-fi show like this. A concept and setting with huge potential.
I know the sex scenes are a little eye-rolling and the Western setting means less expensive sets but still......
......MOAR!
I want moar competent sci-fi on my TV screen.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
the orgy in the last ep was top notch.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
He could have chosen the Black hat there. But he didn't
He will 30 years later
i think they should also have brown
or grey
The Right Deal
Banned
The editing makes it pretty clear that if the theory ends up being true, they want to present it as a twist.
For the hosts time is a flat circle.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Dolores
like DOLOROUS
and not like DELOREAN
like DOLOROUS
and not like DELOREAN
Yes, it is really upsetting when they don't get the name of my robo-waifu right.
More_Badass
Member
Eh...I'd argue there's a difference between a twist and a reveal. The former is a gotcha moment, the latter brings clarity or new meaning to the story. And most people watching aren't digging into theories like we are. In the end, ideally one would be able to watch the season again and easily distinguish past vs present due to this newly revealed information
All you need to do is match-cut from William at his defining moment to MIB in a similar moment
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I share the AVClub review's concern that they're basically going to refuse to give us any concrete information about anything until the finale because they're trying to fuel an entire season with season long questions instead of answering and building on them to form new dramatic questions
Not necessarily, whats triggered this current malfunction is her dad bot whispering to her the Arnold code verbal command in episode 1. The malfunction she experienced 30 years ago could end with William saving the park by preventing her from finishing the maze and triggering the Arnold code to revert to a dormant state.
Not to sidetrack the MiB=William speculation, but can I just mention how much I love the way Evan Rachel Wood delivers dialog when Dolores is in analysis mode? Even just the way she says "no" has an almost creepy consistency and feels believably and subtly robotic. I totally buy the idea that she's entering a different communication state. She is a really terrific actor.
Did Arnold perhaps transfer his memories/consciousness to a host body - Dr. Ford?
That would explain Arnold's suicide as in his physical body dying but him living on as a host.
Arnold becomes one of his own creations so to speak.
MiB knows or suspects this perhaps which is why he takes out the knife and says "I wonder what I would find if I take you apart" near the end of the episode.
MarzipaNMOS
Member
Not sure why the MiB = William theory is so popular here, it's fairly outlandish given what we know. The Man in Black says (either in episode 1 or 2) that he's been coming to the park for 30 years. In last week's episode he mentions to Ford that he remembers when the hosts were robotic with mechanical parts, and not human-like with blood. He also suggests that he was fiscally responsible for saving the park all those years ago when he's talking to Ford. This is William's first time in the park -- he has never seen mechanical hosts. You can't really reconcile all 3 of these things if you're going to claim MiB = WIlliam. I don't doubt that there could be some element of time-travel, though.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
i think they should also have brownhat option, for neutral pathor grey
Like the one Dolores got?
For me by far the most compelling reason to believe William = MiB is that Dolores seems to be flashing between the different timelines. One is the present where she is on her own. And one is the past where she is with William.
Dolores is the crazy killer bot from the big incident in the past.
This time there will be a new rebellion also featuring Maeve and maybe Teddy. And this time probably Dolores will be more of a hero and not a killer bot.
Completely true, and it's going to be lost on a lot of people. They're going for a big audience, yet imagine trying to explain to a casual viewer that there's two Dolores' in different times and that one in the first scene wasn a different one from the second.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
That one guy did say the park was hemorrhaging money, which doesn't seem like something that'd start happening after 30+ years (it does after one of the original partners dies). William marrying into a super rich family seems like a way of gaining access to the kind of money needed to save the place. In turn that man would be a VIP if ever he decided to visit the park.
But other things counting against the theory seem valid.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
More_Badass
Member
I mean how many answers are there to offer?
What is the maze?
What happened with Arnold? (Although this is basically the same question since the two are so closely linked)
===
What is Ford's new storyline/motives? How is Bernard related?
===
Everything else isn't a mystery, but rather has unfolded organically. The host's evolving sentience, Bernard's motives and the behavior team's investigation, William's story, the Man In Black
And I disagree. I do feel the show has been answering and offering new questions.
Actually he never says he saved the park fiscally. He says Arnold wanted to destroy it and almost did, and he saved the park, which could easily mean William stops her from reaching the end of what Arnold started.
As for the robots people keep bringing up old bill but he was the second robot, and Arnold was still alive. Arnold died 34 years ago and the incident happened and MIB came 30 years ago so that's four years, and I think they state they passed Turing after the first and old bill sure as hell did not pass.
The way MIB talked about it didn't sound like robotics was like animitronics, and more like the outside was the same but the inner workings were mechanical not synthetic. I don't remember the exact wording but he said it along the lines of opened up and took apart, and every piece was perfect, leading me to believe it was only apparent if you dissected them and nothing in the William storyline refutes that.