I haven't subscribed to the Wrestling Observer newsletter in awhile, but I believe Meltzer still does quarter-hour breakdowns.
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WWE Raw drops to lowest TV rating in 18 years
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I haven't subscribed to the Wrestling Observer newsletter in awhile, but I believe Meltzer still does quarter-hour breakdowns.
It's a star driven business where they've done everything possible to stop stars from being created for the past decade.
Ninja Scooter
Member
But did Vince ever really know how to create stars?
ratcliffja
Member
Daniel Bryan was to Mankind as C.M. Punk was to Steve Austin. He was a great story and him winning was a feel-good moment, but he didn't have the potential to light the wrestling world on fire by himself. It's a shame that Punk was so hated behind the scenes, because his brand of anti-establishment shooting was one that got a lot of people talking before it was completely squelched.
obijkenobi
Member
What were the numbers like when Punk was around? I was a lapsed wrestling fan that came back after his "shoot" promo and left again when it became obvious HHH was going to steal his thunder
Bruce Springsteen
Member
I would say it peaked MANY years ago, the ratings tell the story
I think if Bryan and Punk were still around with all the new blood that has been brought in we'd be seeing a new era on their backs.
Considering there are no stars on the horizon and their top guys right now are Reigns, HHH and Ambrose; they have no shot at reclaiming ratings. They would have been decent mid card fodder back in the Attitude Era.
The smarks don't make WWE money in any large amounts so thinking they'll return to glory because they signed a bunch of small spot monkeys from the indies and NJPW, they're in for a rude awakening. But I'm sure they already know that.
Their immediate goal should be looking to breed or find stars outside of the WWE and groom them as fast as possible before ratings plummet to the 1.0's. And no, guys like Daniel Bryan and AJ Styles aren't it. The closest they have is Brock but they're putting him in an irrelevant feud with the Wyatts and he's also getting up there in age.
Hopefully they do well but I see them completely being off TV and running purely on the Network by the end of 2017.
The smarks don't make WWE money in any large amounts so thinking they'll return to glory because they signed a bunch of small spot monkeys from the indies and NJPW, they're in for a rude awakening. But I'm sure they already know that.
Their immediate goal should be looking to breed or find stars outside of the WWE and groom them as fast as possible before ratings plummet to the 1.0's. And no, guys like Daniel Bryan and AJ Styles aren't it. The closest they have is Brock but they're putting him in an irrelevant feud with the Wyatts and he's also getting up there in age.
Hopefully they do well but I see them completely being off TV and running purely on the Network by the end of 2017.
UberTag
Member
The important thing is that Triple H got himself over. That one dude in the front row seems really excited about it.
ratcliffja
Member
I can't say for sure, but I do know that his anti-Vince rant was getting a lot of coverage outside of wrestling at a time where I wasn't following wrestling at all. I checked in and saw that a lot of people were interested in where the story would go, but instead he just got buried and he eventually quit about a year later when he was sent back into a midcard feud with Kane.
obijkenobi
Member
The important thing is that Triple H got himself over. That one dude in the front row seems really excited about it.
Lolz. Not only did HHH put Punk in his place, a month later Punk, Cena and HHH were all friends.
JesseEwiak
Member
Bryan and Punk never drew. Even Money in the Bank, after Punk got all the mainstream attention from his pipe bomb promo, was a disappointment buyrate wise and that was before the WWE "ruined" it.
Casual fans want a star, and neither of those two guys are stars to them. Reigns may not be the guy either, but he's far closer to the type of guy to draw the casual fan than Bryan or Punk was. Because yes, Austin or The Rock or Mankind weren't giants, but in the current WWE, they'd be the biggest guys outside of the actual giants (Kane/Big Show/etc.).
That's not to say they should be buried, but AJ Styles and Finn Balor ain't starting a new boom era either.
Dark Ninja
Member
Nah the higher ups don't want them as their guys. They would just be continued to be sabotaged to look terrible and make Roman look strong. The problem here is Vince primarily. The crowd is gonna like what he likes and that's final. He wont be proven wrong. They wont listen to the crowd and fans which they shouldn't always do. But when it makes sense they should react to what and who the crowd likes.
UberTag
Member
So what you're saying is that the future of WWE success stories is Braun Strowman and Baron Corbin. Am I right?
JesseEwiak
Member
What "crowd"? The crowd who buys tickets to the Rumble to boo Roman, but streams every other PPV and whines about it online or the family of 4 at a house show in Arkansas who spent $200 on Roman gear?
Honestly, yeah. At least they'd have a better shot. You need people that people can buy as a badass. Steve Austin wasn't Hulk Hogan, but he was still 6' 4" 240-260 ish and looked like a badass. Punk, Bryan, Styles, etc. don't look like badasses. Maybe Joe five years ago with a strict diet could've pulled it off, but he's too old now. Now, I think since the WWE sucks at booking things and a 3 hour RAW may be impossible to book well, they're still f'd, but that's beside the point.
The fanbase that will get you from a 3 rating to a 5 rating doesn't care about 5 star matches.
ratcliffja
Member
As somebody who grew up in Arkansas, I'd like to believe we have better taste than that. Then again, I saw a "Save the drama for you're mama" poster at a WCW house show in Fayetteville, so maybe I'm being too optimistic.
Dark Ninja
Member
When the crowd boo's your main event star who you aren't trying to sabotage. You should probably start to find out why he's getting boo'd in smarky Brooklyn, in hicksville, in Corpus Christi, in LA and everywhere else they go week after week. They are in trouble mostly because they have been killing guys for the past 10 years feeding them to Cena. They also make lots of questionable business decisions and selfish personal ones. When you jeopardize an angle to punish a guy because he said something on twitter or cause he didn't shake someone's hand on his way out, there's a problem. I think WWE is one of the few companies that hates all of its fans whether they are "internet" fans or not. "Internet fans" is a stupid term aswell in 2016. Lots of problems that can be solved but wont because this is Wrasslin.
The only thing is, Bryan and Punk were both ahead of the curve. Wrestling is trending to smaller performers. Outside of the WWE, there aren't that many jacked body builder type wrestlers like you'd find on the WWE roster. Smaller, more agile wrestlers are becoming the norm.
When Bryan and Punk came on the scene, that change hadn't seen the light of day in WWE yet. That is why when you put them against WWE guys, they're not going to look like championship material.
I feel that the powers that be in WWE are still pushing against the grain when it comes to this trend by keeping their home groan assets on top while the smaller more agile stars of tomorrow are either regulated to NXT or buried in the main roster.
The time will have to come though when WWE will realize that people want more action that the smaller wrestlers can provide.
This is actually a systemic problem- the larger guys just aren't getting into the business.
JesseEwiak
Member
The modern wrestling fans left in 2015 may be trending toward smaller wrestlers, but that's not what the casual fan wants. They want larger than life stars and guess what, a guy who they're taller and bigger than isn't that guy.
So yes, the crowd that can draw a 2.8 rating may want that, but isn't that what this whole thread about - how can draw the WWE draw the old audience back? Well, that's pretty simple - big dudes who kick ass. Look who was on top during the last bad period for the WWE? Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. Awesome wrestlers, but frankly, in the US, they both drew for shit. When did the WWE come back? When Austin, Rock, Mankind, Kane, etc. became big stars. Goldberg was the biggest star the WCW ever created.
Yes, the casual fan will like _a_ Rey Jr. sized guy. They might accept a division of them But, outside of Mexico, they aren't interested in a roster of Rey Jr. sized guys on top. Hell, even in Japan, guys have to "bulk up" to become legitimate main eventers.
Which, ironically, if you guys actually like long good matches on RAW and PPV's full of good to great matches, you don't want the WWE to get more popular. Because what was actually popular among the mainstream audience was short matches, long talking segments, and a shitty undercard, which you'll see in the Attitude Era.
Especially if you're a fan of the current new crop of Diva's - because again, the casual fans want hot girls in little clothing, not strong style matches between Sasha and Charlotte.
Paracelsus
Member
After the PG era we actually sorta got the smark era, which was never acknowledged. It's the era where people do not buy into anything and hijack everything to try and get who they want over. Still ongoing, since Reigns is not over and HHH is not booed because people could not care less. The bodybuilder schtick doesn't mean anything anymore when everybody except maybe kids is fully aware the thing is fake, so the best talkers with some flippy skills on the side or characters people earnestly sympathize with eventually go over.
JesseEwiak
Member
People are aware movies are fake, but Chris Pratt still had to get ripped to play Star Lord. Aesthetics matter to the mainstream and frankly, the fan who was watching Nitro in 1998 will not care about a guy who they think they can beat up being the 'top guy.'
I don't think that's actually the issue (This was happening before, and will happen again- Luger didn't fail in the Smark era.) We've been in the smark era for a while in ways that are actively bad. The matches are too long, have too many highspots as a regular thing (no seriously, stop diving over/through the ropes EVERY match guys) and we barely have any promos.
Guys don't have to be *that* big, (SCSA is 6'1") but they need to be big enough, and that's something that's been an issue as well, since there's so many alternative career options for those bodybuilder types nowadays.
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here. The mainstream crowd doesn't care what size the wrestler is, Daniel Bryan proved that. They just want someone to latch onto that they can believe in whose story doesn't insult their intelligence. It takes a perfect blend of booking, talent to carry the booking and incredible ring action. They haven't had all three mesh since Bryan.
UberTag
Member
Just a heads up... but most of those guys got over... NOT because of their size... but because of their storylines. The storylines were fresh and exciting and hadn't been done before and THEY were larger than life. And that translated to the stars who themselves were free to craft their characters dynamically and weren't married to a script that was written by one of 28 guys in the back (Freddie Prinze and the soap opera crew).
You're associating a strong Creative period with the size of the wrestler. Fact is, give a performer creative freedom and a compelling reason to watch them kick ass and just about ANYONE can get over. It's that freedom for the performer and that freshness to be bold and creative that doesn't exist today.
WWE thrived when it was creatively ambitious... and today's WWE is creatively bankrupt.
Paracelsus
Member
Kurt Angle is 5'8''
Austin had no power moves before or after the neck broke, neither did Freepaul H. If the problem is "I could beat that guy up" have Ambrose lift some more and put him against Owens for the world title. If the problem is "the wrestler must look like someone both men and women would love to wank to" like Orton then it's another issue altogether.
You can't throw your water bottle and boo the director to force them to change the script or the actors.
Austin was billed at 6' 2" and I doubt he was even 6' 0" without shoes. He was properly ripped but not skinny. Punk, Bryan, Styles etc have boxer type bodies that are very lean, low body fat.
Perhaps the WWE were lucky Austin got injured, although it limited his ring time it meant he was never exposed like Cena where he rolled out the same five moves every match. Austin filled a huge variety of roles and there was always the pretense he could wrestle. Cena should be back on TV as soon as possible, shoulder injury be damned. Commissioner, GM or just being a wildcard.
And just to add how awesome the Stone Cold Stunner is as a finisher. I particularly hate the FINISHER OUT OF NOWHERE shit (RKO, ZigZag etc). There should be a set up or some sort of pose to signal the move. The Stunner has the kick to the gut and Austin could embellish with the middle fingers. The Pedigree has a whole set up. Even the Rock Bottom while simple has an extended period in the grasp.
Maybe if Cena can't do his finisher he could steal the Stunner for a bit.
Without Bryan and Punk there, Brock Lesnar should be the guy they're building their company around. I don't even care if he can only work X # of days in a year, he's a once in a lifetime talent. Yet for some reason they want to put all their eggs on the back of Roman Reigns who has a long way to go to realize his star power, if any is there.
Paracelsus
Member
One big hidden issue with the Johnny Ace era is that in addition to hiring all the bodybuilder types, he was hiring a bunch of very good looking males. Prior to it very, very, very conventionally attractive guys like Orton were a huge outlier. But they kept hiring all the super buff super good looking guys, and it shouldn't have been a surprise when the audience kept having a hard time getting invested in them, since many never had to develop a personality, and the audience really isn't going to want to root for an overdog.Kurt Angle is 5'8''
Austin had no power moves before or after the neck broke, neither did Freepaul H. If the problem is "I could beat that guy up" have Ambrose lift some more and put him against Owens for the world title. If the problem is "the wrestler must look like someone both men and women would love to wank to" like Orton then it's another issue altogether.
You can't throw your water bottle and boo the director to force them to change the script or the actors.
Ted DiBiase Jr. pretty much encapsulates the issue. (though he would have always had a job, due to his family.)
yup
I see so many similarities between WWE and the success of the Star Wars films.
I look at the Hogan years/Attitude Era as the original trilogy. They were groundbreaking, have tons of memorable characters and moments, and are looked back on fondly decades later.
We are currently living through the prequel years for WWE. The man who drove those amazing years no longer understands what people loved about his product in the first place.
It won't be until he leaves and lets someone else take over that we will see a true revival in popularity. With Star Wars we got The Force Awakens, with WWE, we see the incredible NXT project that is not touched by Vince or Dunn and the potential is there for an awesome wrestling product.
This is actually the second Prequel era. The '90s were just like this, but the issue now is that there's no external competition forcing Vince to change.
Dick Justice
Banned
They had the chance with Punk back in 2011. But Vince is a talentless hack who no longer has the ability to let his talent actually get over, sustain themselves in the long term and draw more fans in. Most of the big stars came about in spite of Vince and his idiocy. Just take a look at the shit Austin had to deal with before he came up with the Stone Cold character.
Etrian Oddity
Member
Bull. Bryan may not have had the promo skills of Cena, but his merchandise sales were fucking huge, and that's what WWE cares about just as much as ratings.
To deny the WWE sabotaged him is pretty dense. It took literally every single person in the arena standing on their feet and shouting "YES!" -- and an injury to Cena -- to force Vince kicking and screaming to put him into the big picture. And now that Bryan is "hurt," it gave them a perfect reason to blackball him again. He's perfectly capable of wrestling but WWE doctors refuse to clear him.
People can do the whole "lol conspiracies" thing, but the proof is in the pudding. Bryan was over as fuck and the WWE didn't like it.
"Oh his promos sucked." So did Brock's. Guess what, that's what managers are for. But the WWE doesn't even remember how to use them, either.
UberTag
Member
Nope, they make excuses for him.
Just like they do for Triple H as champ.
It's only when someone like D.Brine or Rollins is champ that ratings and merch sales and house show draws are picked apart and they're deemed to be failures.
For those not in the know:
Punk used to tear up scripts in the writers' faces and laugh at them. Dude was probably reading embarrassing shit like that all the time.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I think Luncha Underground goes to show bodysize means fuck all if you can carry yourself as a performer. The fact guys like Pentagon and Phoneix aren't 6'6 and rocking hard abs doesn't act at to their detriment when it's not made into a focus point. At the same time it doesn't prevent the bigger guys like Cage and Mil or the built guys like Cuerno and Puma from looking like threats because of their better body shapes.
On the other hand the WWE hires on of the biggest stars in Japan and the only thing they've done with him in 2 weeks is have him sit like a goober whilst a jobber calls him a short arse; but that's okay because Bryan was too! It's a fucking terrible way to sell anybody, let alone somebody who's already made and has a limited time span in the ring.
On the other hand the WWE hires on of the biggest stars in Japan and the only thing they've done with him in 2 weeks is have him sit like a goober whilst a jobber calls him a short arse; but that's okay because Bryan was too! It's a fucking terrible way to sell anybody, let alone somebody who's already made and has a limited time span in the ring.
WWE's greatest skill is emphasizing their performers' weaknesses.
When you look small next to Jericho, there's a pretty big elephant in the room that the audience is going to be aware of, and it was fine given what they were going for with the Bryan analogy.
JesseEwiak
Member
Again, before they "ruined" it, when every smark on the Internet was splooging over the angle - Money in the Bank didn't draw any more than normal. Ratings didn't move. It might've change if they didn't ruin it, but for all the podcast appearances and posts on blogs about the pipebomb, the casual fan didn't seem to care.
So, by that standard, since The Force Awakens was a remixed New Hope with less white dudes, we just need to fight a black or Hispanic Hulk Hogan?
It's not just the bodies - it's the aura. When you saw Austin, you saw a guy who would get in a barfight because he had a few too many Coors Light. Nothing personal, but Punk seems like a shitty dude who would hit on a girlfriend, then run away if you actually stood up to him and Bryan seems like the friendly cashier at your local vegan co-op.
I agree. If you're an actual Gold Medalist, you get a pass. I will point out though that the Kurt Angle of 1996 bears little resemblance to the Kurt Angle of 2005. There's about 40 pounds of extra muscle with the latter.
I actually think Ambrose if he was a bigger, he could be a top guy. I mean, he'd still be kind of a shitty wrestler, but hey, that doesn't matter when it comes to a top guy.
Goldberg's 'strong creative' was him winning a lot. A lot of the "great" WWE creative during the Attitude Era was boobs, blood, swearing, and violence against women. Not saying the creative is better now, but frankly, you could book the same exact storylines today and they wouldn't be as over because the guys today simply aren't as good.
I think our definition of mainstream is different. Daniel Bryan is fine for the current drawing a 3.0, getting your hardcores out to WM era. But, he won't draw the actual mainstream where RAW is sellout every week and breaking ratings records.
Managers don't work for babyfaces. But again, Bryan had his chance - and blew it by getting injured twice. Which isn't fair, but life isn't fair.
It doesn't matter when it comes to quality, but sadly, I'm talking about drawing, which LU has failed to do outside of Mexican TV.
Jason Frost
Member
Anyone has a chart or something listing every rating from 2015 and so on?
UberTag
Member
ECW's greatest skill was masking a performer's weaknesses and accentuating their strengths.
I wonder who ran that company and if he could be reached today to share his creative input on the WWE's current product.
Oh look... there he is in their ring this past Monday night.
JesseEwiak
Member
Heyman has repeatedly said he has zero interest in being on creative.
I will also point out for all his "creative" genius, ECW would've been out of business even quicker if not for Evil Vince's monthly checks.
Perspicacity
Banned
If only we could return to the creatively ambitious era when wrestlers told each other to suck their penises.
Another mistake WWE made was breaking up The Shield so soon. Should have let them do their thing for a couple more years. Their chemistry were great and some of the feuds they had were very good.
They need more stables for these 3 hour shows. The New Day and Wyatts are much more boring than The Shield. And the League of Nations is injured but even if they weren't they are very boring as well.
Now the Rollins and Reigns runs are responsible for the lowest ratings ever in RAW history. And Dean Ambrose looks like he is on pace to get his 15 minutes of fame right before HHH buries him.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
I don't see why not. Telling people to suck your dick is a very common insult.
I don't think that Japan example you highlighted is credible/holds-water as it is not true. I've been going to many NJPW matches and hanging with the community and watching the scene, plus I have been checking how things use to be and who are the top draws. Sorry, from what I have seen it hasn't been to how you are thinking here in Japan. Japanese people do not think like how you implied.
It's incredibly hard to think that both Shawn Michael's and Brett Hart didn't draw for crap. I know you are talking about the US but that is even more so the case of thinking, "sorry, I really don't believe you". In fact, I refuse to believe what you said especially unless you can provide examples and proof. From what I've seen, Brett Hart especially was a massive draw in the US (a massive draw doesn't mean THE draw, of course). Back in the 90s, the merchandise and TV showing were off the chain, every kid wanted something or to be a bit like "the hitman" because he was the definition of "cool". This is from what I've seen with my own eyes but I don't know how you figured that the drawing numbers from Brett and even Shawn Michaels' were not big enough. Heck, in respect to myself providing proof, Bret Hartt main event Wrestlemania 3 times and Shawn main event 5 times (Shawn isn't called Mr Wrestlemania for nothing). Shawn was put on frequently in Wrestlemania because he draw big numbers and put on impressive show to boot, and it would be stupid for WWF/E to headline Shawn and Brett numerous times if that wasn't the case! So how can these two credible guys didn't draw big numbers in the US alone and if they didn't draw big numbers then why did the WWF/E made them headline wrestlemania on so many occasions? Look, here is my proof in regards to Wrestlemania headliners focusing on Brett and Shawn -
Wrestlemania VIII:
Bret Hart vs. "Rowdy" Roddy Piper
Wrestlemania IX:
Yokozuna vs. Bret Hart (ME)
Tatanka vs. Shawn Michaels
Wrestlemania X:
Yokozuna vs. Bret Hart (ME)
Owen Hart vs. Bret Hart
Wrestlemania XI:
Diesel vs. Shawn Michaels
Wrestlemania XII:
Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels (Iron Man Match) (ME)
Roddy Piper vs. Goldust (Hollywood Backlot Brawl) - small guys
Wrestlemania 13:
Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin (Submission Match)
Wrestlemania XIV:
Shawn Michaels vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin (ME)
Wrestlemania XIX:
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho
Wrestlmania XX:
Triple H vs. Chris Benoit vs. Shawn Michaels (ME)
Wrestlemania 21:
Kurt Angle vs. Shawn Michaels
Wrestlemania 22:
Shawn Michaels vs. Vince McMahon
Wrestlemania 23:
John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels (ME)
Wrestlemania XXIV:
Shawn Michaels vs. Ric Flair
Wrestlemania XXVI:
The Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels (ME)
Bret Hart vs. Mr. McMahon
This is why I cannot believe you as a whole but , excluding your Divas comment which doesn't hold any water, I think that there is some truth to what you said. If anything, the WWE need to be carefully balance between providing quality (the legit wrestlers) and money-drawers (the guys that little kids want to buy toys and merchandise of)., and making sure that both end of the spectrum are happy. Maybe two championship belts need to come back because, no matter what, the heavyweight championship belt is the overall goal unless WWE can make both the Intercontinental and US championship believe more relevant again.
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