YeulEmeralda
Linux User
PC gamers have been using keyboard and mouse since the 1980s and nobody ever complains about that.
But consoles have to "innovate".
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But consoles have to "innovate".
MasterCornholio
Member
You can use controllers on PC. The only thing that annoys me is compatability issues.
Elysium44
Banned
This is true. There are lots of problems with Xbox but the controller layout / features is not one of them. It shouldn't have even mattered if they just kept the Xbox One controller. Xbox isn't failing because people wanted a fancy new controller, it's failing because the games aren't compelling enough for people to buy into it. The first thing I do when I get a console is disable all the vibration / triggers etc. - they're gimmicks I don't care about.
MonkeyClaw36
Banned
Not true. The OG Xbox did quite well. Otherwise there would not be a solid base for the 360 to sell well.
Like spider man.
It's possible.
GHG
Gold Member
It's better for people to have the option to disable new features and/or play without them than it is for everyone to not have the option at all.
If the features were worthless then people wouldn't have gone out of their way to make mods/software to implement them on PC in games that ordinarily don't have them.
Also, more and more people are now buying Playstation controllers for use with their PC:
- There were over 3 Billion game sessions that included a controller in the past year
- 60% Xbox controller
- 27% PlayStation models
- The remaining % is made up of Steam Deck, Switch Pro, and hundreds of other controller models
- The same period four years ago (ending Nov 2019) had 990 Million controller sessions
- 76% Xbox controllers
- 19% PlayStation controllers
- During these four years, PlayStation controllers saw a 4x increase in sessions
Steam :: Steam News :: New! Find Great Games To Play With DualShock and DualSense Controllers
Controller support shown in Steam library and store expands to now include PlayStation controllers
Xbox failing to innovate is proving to be detrimental across all areas of their business.
pasterpl
Member
Some did, PS4 had great generation and xbone until xbonex was a disaster. Lots of x fan base moved to ps at the begging of the previous gen.
Elysium44
Banned
It's better for people to have the option to disable new features and/or play without them than it is for everyone to not have the option at all.
If the features were worthless then people wouldn't have gone out of their way to make mods/software to implement them on PC in games that ordinarily don't have them.
Also, more and more people are now buying Playstation controllers for use with their PC:
- There were over 3 Billion game sessions that included a controller in the past year
- 60% Xbox controller
- 27% PlayStation models
- The remaining % is made up of Steam Deck, Switch Pro, and hundreds of other controller models
- The same period four years ago (ending Nov 2019) had 990 Million controller sessions
- 76% Xbox controllers
- 19% PlayStation controllers
- During these four years, PlayStation controllers saw a 4x increase in sessions
Steam :: Steam News :: New! Find Great Games To Play With DualShock and DualSense Controllers
Controller support shown in Steam library and store expands to now include PlayStation controllerssteamcommunity.com
Xbox failing to innovate is proving to be detrimental across all areas of their business.
The controllers aren't why Xbox is failing, that's all I'm saying.
FWIW the Series controllers are poor imo, the quality feel is a big step back from the Xbox One and the triggers are too small unless you have baby hands. But as far as basic design layout etc. is concerned, it's the same as the previous ones and that's fine, and is nothing to do with why Xbox is failing. It's failing because the games are completely underwhelming at best, or dreadful / buggy messes at worst. The controllers aren't the problem, Phil Spencer is.
If they really focused on delivering amazing games I believe that they could recover but I think their biggest obstacle is that personally I honestly don't think many of Microsoft's heads know what makes a good game.
They need to let their studios deliver new ip's and don't force them to stick to older ones.
A lot of their Devs probably have amazing ideas for games with new ip's.
Personally I find most of Microsoft ip's boring and unnecessary but I do really like the Series X hardware. Also why don't Microsoft have anything comparable to DLSS, what a difference that would make.
They need to let their studios deliver new ip's and don't force them to stick to older ones.
A lot of their Devs probably have amazing ideas for games with new ip's.
Personally I find most of Microsoft ip's boring and unnecessary but I do really like the Series X hardware. Also why don't Microsoft have anything comparable to DLSS, what a difference that would make.
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GHG
Gold Member
Don't disagree, it's certainly not the controller alone that's put them in this position, but that's not what I'm suggesting.
I'm just stating that their lack of innovation as a division across the board has heavily contributed towards their current situation, the controller is just one such example.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think it is completely true. DualSense is more comfortable, it has an even better speaker (which was a feature DS4 introduced), and its high quality haptic feedback and dynamic feedback triggers if decently implemented are one of the biggest reasons for me to pick a multiplatform game on PS5 (or a cross generation one, if you stick only to the multiplatform example though I will throw in gyro+accelerometers too).
Controllers being meaningfully improved is one of the “new generation” defining moments for me.
Overall, I expect the tune to change when Xbox controllers add high quality haptics feedback and something like the dynamic triggers…
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Skifi28
Member
The problem with releasing that mid-gen is most developers might not bother supporting it properly when 99% of xbox owners will be using the regular controllers. Unless they sit on it until the new generation of consoles (assuming there is one), it might be too little too late.
YeulEmeralda
Linux User
I have a Dualsense only because I'm used to PlayStation buttons.
I suppose the LED light is nice other than that it's just a decent controller.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
That does not stop rabid evang… I mean fans
.
PanzerCute
Member
To have brand recognition, you also need brand visibility, it has been non existent in Europe for years.
You would think that with all the money MS have and the gamepass to push, we would be hammered by huge marketing campaigns online and in store in Europe.
But no, almost nothing. The PS and Nintendo displays in store are huge, we are flooded by their digital and physical ads and we almost never see Xbox. I'm never targeted by their ads online (while I am for even some very niche publishers) and it seems that they don't do much to be a topic in the gaming sphere anymore.
When they announced Gamepass, in my head I could already see a colossal marketing campaign with a simple message "buy a console, never have to buy these expensive games again! And play our great IP day one". But no, almost nothing.
I don't know, it's like they gave up after the Xbox One debacle.
You would think that with all the money MS have and the gamepass to push, we would be hammered by huge marketing campaigns online and in store in Europe.
But no, almost nothing. The PS and Nintendo displays in store are huge, we are flooded by their digital and physical ads and we almost never see Xbox. I'm never targeted by their ads online (while I am for even some very niche publishers) and it seems that they don't do much to be a topic in the gaming sphere anymore.
When they announced Gamepass, in my head I could already see a colossal marketing campaign with a simple message "buy a console, never have to buy these expensive games again! And play our great IP day one". But no, almost nothing.
I don't know, it's like they gave up after the Xbox One debacle.
Astray
Member
You can't innovate when you spend all your time "listening to fans", fans are literally the worst people for this because by definition, the consumer doesn't get to see any product until it's either leaked or on shelves already.
If you ask a fan how to improve a controller, then they by definition will only have what's thriving on the market right now to refer to, which means you have just set back your development timeline by ages. Imagine Sony cancelling the haptic feedback thing because of fans telling them that the Switch barely used its HD Rumble, or Nintendo cancelling the Switch because fans hated the Wii U's entire being and probably wanted them to make Gamecube 2.
Now guess what, the fans saw that PS5 controllers are a tangible improvement and a swing factor in consumers deciding to go for PS5 versions of games, so now the new controller will have it! Always a day late and a dollar short..
You have to have the guts to come up with a vision and stick to your guns, and Microsoft simply has no idea what they are supposed to be in the market, and are constantly looking to consumers for advice on what that should be.. A lot of people shit on Mattrick, but the man at least had the backbone to defend his vision to the very end (his vision was completely anti-consumer, he was guilty of the opposite sin, he listened to publishers too much, you can tell that Activision and EA were driving the always-on DRM bullshit).
All this brings us to this: What is Phil Spencer's vision exactly? I don't see anything besides purposeful burning of IP and Xbox brand value.
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Lucifers Beard
Member
Good games.
Horseganador
Member
ChorizoPicozo
Member
"Having one less console manufacturer Xbox not sell consoles and/or not manufacturing consoles is disaster for everyone and the most for consumers. Having more console manufacturers leads to more competition and better products for us all, the players".
at this point, I am not that sure about it. the competition is coming from everywhere
midnightAI
Member
Their best bet is either:
Go the insane route, make a $1000 console that matches even the highest end PC's that even PS6 can't match years later.
Go the mega cheap route, sell a streaming only console for less than $100 or...
A handheld like the Portal for Cloud streaming that can also double as a streaming console (like a streaming only Switch)
Or do all of the above
My reasoning is, I don't think they can go toe to toe with Sony on hardware. But yeh, even the above probably wouldn't work either.
MikeM
Gold Member
Xbox is synonymous with PC now. There is no uniqueness there when it comes to games.
I’ve been saying this for a while now, but the PC market is massive and a lot of them have PS5s because of the variety when compared to PC.
Xbox provides nothing that PC can’t provide, therefore there is no value in owning both. That is massive in your appeal to the overall gaming market. Xbox is in dire need of true console exclusives.
I’ve been saying this for a while now, but the PC market is massive and a lot of them have PS5s because of the variety when compared to PC.
Xbox provides nothing that PC can’t provide, therefore there is no value in owning both. That is massive in your appeal to the overall gaming market. Xbox is in dire need of true console exclusives.
DrFigs
Member
I think the problem with that statement is that playstation is clearly making the better games, having more innovations in peripherals (vr, ps portal), and even was an early innovator in cloud gaming and subscriptions. It's not super clear what MS has brought to the table. Buying activision/blizzard may help them sell more consoles, but benefit to consumers? I don't see it necessarily.
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Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Selling a 1000-dollar console would be instantly a failure. You wouldn't get the PC market to the degree you would hope because you still don't have a lot of elements that they want, steam library/community, customization, and heavily discounted games. And even with a high-powered gpu, you're still going to be behind the curve on some technological advancements.
I do think they should come out with a streaming stick for 100 (including a controller). If it is still streaming what value is there in doubling as a streaming console? Are you just saying able to plug into a TV?
Their only real hope is to change the dynamic of how people play by getting people streaming as a standard. You look at Geforce Now and its on TVs and that is what Microsoft needs to do. Get their app on every TV manufacturer (I think Sony will pass), work out a deal with Roku and Amazon (Amazon will probably pass), and Google (Google will probably pass).
They should shift their entire attention to GamePass via xCloud and PC.
midnightAI
Member
Well I don't think it would sell either but at least it may disrupt what Sony is doing. Going toe to toe with Sony on pretty much an even playing field is not working. At least with a very high powered console they would easily be more powerful throughout the entire generation.
Yes, same as Switch, a portable streaming device you could plug into the TV (no extra power though as it's still streaming, although, maybe a dock that's connected to LAN would actually improve latency once connected to TV). If they could sell that cheaper than Portal and allow full access to cloud streaming with no other console required then that would work for them. (I still think Sony will offer similar cloud play at some point)
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Even on the mouse there has been innovation. Would you go back to a mouse ball instead of optical or the newer laser? Would you use a mouse from the 80s which didn't have a scroll wheel? There is innovation in everything.
Someone should point out that time when there were damn near 10+ console platforms out. After the dust settled Nintendo and Sony survived. MS took Sega place and the rest is history.
History of video game consoles - Wikipedia
One less doesnt automatically mean disaster. And more platforms doesnt automatically mean great. There is a real debate to be had about what if Sega didnt bow out...would MS had even tried? Would it be 4 home console platforms today if they did?
Elysium44
Banned
Meh. The mouse internals change but the basic end user experience is all but identical, so your point is moot. You used to get pro FPS players using a ball mouse against optical / laser mouse players and still dominating. I don't know why this thread has become derailed with this red herring that Microsoft's shitty performance has anything (meaningful) to do with the peripherals.
The problem is the culture in Microsoft is completely rotten, mediocrity is celebrated and excellence or even competence is not important, in fact it is deliberately deemed unimportant.
I've been playing one of their jewel in the crown system seller titles again recently, Forza Horizon 4 which still sells for full price on Steam, in fact it's more expensive than FH5 for some reason. The game is completely broken in some important ways, for example going through a speed zone now will crash the game to the desktop, every time. This major bug has existed for years, never fixed. Multiplayer gets stuck on loading screens or the scoreboard for 10+ minutes, regularly, with the only way to quit being to force quit the game or disconnect your network. Never fixed. Why? Nobody cares. Everyone KNOWS, nobody cares. What sort of company can survive this sort of lax 'fuck the customer' attitude? The depth of arrogance and complacency is incredible.
FH4 is a game which upon every start you have to manually turn off the music and put it in streamer mode, because it won't remember the setting. FH5 does, FH4 never did. Also it has no volume slider for music - at all. Even streamer mode doesn't disable half the music - which you get at full volume throughout the game, whether you like it or not. The game, like all Microsoft's games, are full of annoyances like this, which any testing regime worth its salt would identify and eliminate. People tell them, they don't care. They don't care about the customer experience at all. They just grin and say everything is great.
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A $1000 console would not sell at all, no one is buying that. I do think a Xbox fire stick would do well, and that's a route they'll go down eventually. As for what a think they should do, I think they would be best served going third party. They are never going to grow their hardware, they need to get all those games on as many platforms as possible
Little Chicken
Member
Yes he has overseen four very well-built, customer-focused consoles, the One X and Series X being the most powerful in their respective generations, I can't wait to see what Phil does next!Since 2016 Spencer-led Xbox has launched 4 consoles
Xbox One S
Xbox One X
Xbox Series S
Xbox Series X
Solution to the problem?
Release another console!!
Mephisto40
Member
What on earth is this nonsense
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
MS isn't investing in cloud gaming anymore. The plan for a streaming device has been scrapped. Probably because the investments costs are enormous and the benefits are dubious.
It costs pennies to manufacture millions of streaming sticks, but it costs billions to set up the server infrastructure to service millions of users. One single movie streaming server can handle tens of thousands simultaneous streams but a cloud gaming server can handle a few simultaneous users or even one single player. Let's not forget that to stream games with the same image quality and performance as an Xbox Series X you need the real thing: a device with 16 GBs of videoram and the same CPU/GPU as a XSX because you're not playing a movie, you're playing that game in realtime. And then you'd have to install hundreds of thousands or even millions of these custom built Xbox Series X servers in centers all around the US and Europe. Those are multi billion dollar investments and there's no guarantee that people will happily pay $10 to play games in the cloud.
MasterCornholio
Member
That my friend is a meltdown.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Where is the competition for Sony consoles if Xbox stopped making boxes?
GHG
Gold Member
hououinkyouma00
Gold Member
Oof. I figured it might do some numbers simply due to the S being tiny cheap and having gamepads.
Interesting. I know the UK had some Xbox presence. The way they launched Xbox One was odd and sort of a fuck you lol.
The thing is 90% or more of the people buying a Series X will never use emulation and most likely won't really use BC.ehhhh....
ehhhhhhhhhh....
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
I understand where you're coming from but I just find it hard to agree. Even if I'm not a big fan of Xbox now with that whole big leak they had a while back I feel like for 500 dollars the Series X (if you're getting with the knowledge there will be no exclusives) is a deal, considering it reguarly goes on sale for lower than that. It can play a large library of Xbox games through backwards compat, and it can play even more games through emulation. There still isn't an equivalent PC you can build for the price of a discounted Xbox (we are getting there with discounted AMD GPUs, but still no cigar)
If you have a computer already it's virtually useless however.
Yeah, if you are a console only gamer then there is definitely "some" use in an Xbox but it's getting worse and worse every day. With a PC there is almost no point at all.
I mean no offense to the rest of Asia but Japan is really the only one people care about. China is a big market but at this moment not as big as it could be.
MisterXDTV
Member
Well said, Phil!!!
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
It's a shame he let down the designers of the machines by not emphasising releasing enough good quality games so that more people actually had a reason to buy them.
midnightAI
Member
And yet, some keep asking for an Apple console, do you think that would be cheap? Look, I'm not saying it would sell huge or anything like that, as I've mentioned above, MS is in trouble, they cant keep doing what they are doing, they are getting trounced by Sony on an even playing field at least do something different to try and disrupt them (I suppose that's why they keep wanting to buy publishers?). As the quote goes... 'Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results'
I personally quite like my Series S, its ok for what it is, a Gamepass device, my PS5 gets way more use, why? because it has the (exclusive) games I want to play, and personally they also seem to come up with additional ways of playing their consoles or additional uses such as Blu-Ray when PS3 came out, VR for PS4 (and PS5) and now Portal for PS5, they keep things interesting. MS tried this with Kinect but they haven't tried anything like that since (probably a good thing but it was interesting for what it was)
Nintendo have gone a completely different direction because they knew back then that they couldn't do what Sony do, Gamecube as good as it was just couldn't competes they focused on handheld consoles which they have on lockdown that's why we most likely wont be seeing a Vita 2.
Edit: and for what its worth, I think Phil Spencer could be in trouble here, I can see the higher ups wanting an escape goat (pardon the eggcorn)
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I do think if apple wanted to get in on consoles they would do well. And the reason they charge loads of money for their hardware is because they have brand loyalty. Apple make brilliant products and people love it, personally and I think for many others Microsoft is not thought of in the same way. Like I said they are better served going third party, support every platform and their gaming sector will be raking it in
ChorizoPicozo
Member
everywhere.
mobile, PC, Streaming, the economics of the industry itself.
midnightAI
Member
But when it comes to console gaming or PC gaming Microsoft has far more experience than Apple. Apple made one console and it was a complete disaster. Apple also dont have (currently) anywhere near the game development studios that Microsoft has so other than hardware they wouldn't have anything and as you know, for consoles hardware is not enough, not by a long shot. How many buy Macs for gaming compared to how many buy Windows PC's? I hnoestly think if Apple got into the consoles game they would do worse than Microsoft.
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I don't feel any of that is an actual competitor to keeping Sony in check on their consoles as far as innovation and pricing, they would have free reign to do as they please
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
Nintendo.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
And how long have people been playing on a severely underpowered Switch and begging for a more powerful Switch 2?
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
7 years. And they got 120 million people to do it with em, too. Switch 2 also will be competitive with home consoles if rumors are anything to go by. I don't think Sony will become lazy all of a sudden with xbox out of the picture