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[geordiemp]

That's not what i say.
Spiderman was used for the PS2/PS3 promotions by Sony and the fronts on PS3 are said to be based on Spiderman. Are you trolling or what?

So what we know so far, people can join the dots however they please

• LocalRay company have announced a deal with a console manufacturer which is not announced yet and under NDA
• Sony have 3 RECENT games, Spiderman, Miles Morales and Avengers exclusive DLC using this IP
• Sony make the spiderman films
• New photos for New York Spiderman demo 2020
• Video and the full New York spiderman demo has not been released yet,,,mmm
• Spiderman getting upgrade on ps5, Miles Morales 4k60 and shows RT in the short teasers.
• Insomniac said on Twitter they have ray tracing in the game

People can believe whatever they want, if its not logical and thoughtful then they embarrass themselves.

This technology works with little performance cost, as seen on the phone demo,. and as such if employed widely would be a massive boost for console games that use it over traditional FP 32 BVH.

Most games shown at the sony first party conference had ray tracing and were native 4K, which would kill a 2080ti FPS using traditional BVH, so something is up s Ps5 is punching well above its weight.

Imagine next spideman game with these RT, it would be glorious. I wonder when the NDA and demo for this will get released and at what show ?

 

[Mistershine.]

Because the LocalRay company thermselves have announced they have a deal witha major console manufacturer and a major phone manufacturer that is under NDA.

So you have to work out if its Sony, Nintendo, MS in console space.

Difficult one really, I will have to do some 2 tailed statistical T-tests to work out the probability of the null hyportesis.

I'm going to take a punt in the opposite direction and say that if it works on phones then it'll work on the switch. If you're going to use a CU for RT then surely it makes more sense to use the actual RT hardware than FP16 for a software based solution?

 

[JonnyMP3]

So trying to ignore the xbox trolls has anyone read up on the LocalRay patents and what they do.

I read the following on how to do FP16 while using an offset on co ordinates for the BVH

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d70e/6206ed00e13aa95e8d258afd491b1b3f1c5d.pdf

So is this saying... instead of calculating the ray path and what happens when it hits an object...
It calculates the object instead when the ray hits it?

 

[geordiemp]

I'm going to take a punt in the opposite direction and say that if it works on phones then it'll work on the switch. If you're going to use a CU for RT then surely it makes more sense to use the actual RT hardware than FP16 for a software based solution?

One phone manufacturer and one leading console manufacturer have signed up with NDA. Its still using hardware, just more efficiently as its using FP16 so half precion and doing less BVH per frame, but its still doing BVH. See my post above, if it was a Mario demo and under NDA maybe

So is this saying... instead of calculating the ray path and what happens when it hits an object...
It calculates the object instead when the ray hits it?

That is just a scholar paper on using a local reference point so all the co-ordinates can be LOCAL and use FP16 instead of FP32 for the calculations etc. With RDNA2 being easier to split into double effective TF using FP16, that alone would be a big performance gain (with small cost on the local reference point calculation)

Then there is LOCALRAY company (I assume their name implies same method lol, but who knows ?) but they also claim to do the rays in reverse, they claim 30 unique Ray tracing patents on efficiency. I have not looked into them, I bet Cerny has. .

 

[Yoboman]

Very cool OP. There has got to be a lot of ways to improve ray tracing results at the software level, a lot of it seems very brute force right now

Lighting has been the most improved aspect of the current gen from early to late in the gen. Going from Witcher 3 to RDR2 feels like a generation leap in lighting

Devs will figure out a lot of ways to balance and do RT much cheaper than expected

Both consoles will be able to do limited Ray Tracing at best on AAA games, especially open world without cut backs in resolution, framerate, and all sorts of other graphical effects. It's just too demanding. People should temper their expectations. However, i do expect the more powerful console to be more ray tracing capable as is expected.

Rest in pieces. Your tireless efforts will be missed

 

[CrysisFreak]

Yeah I don't get it.
Why would they use Spiderman in the first place?
Either Marvel and/or Sony allowed them to do it, so there must be a connection right?
Those reflections in the demo videos look TASTY. If this tech ends up optimised in triple A titles, our eyeballs are going to melt.
Imagine seeing the reflection of an enemy in a mirror or windows in a multiplayer game and winning a firefight thanks to it.

 

[geordiemp]

So is this saying... instead of calculating the ray path and what happens when it hits an object...
It calculates the object instead when the ray hits it?

I Remember when we first did light at school I always used to draw the line of sight arrow from my eye to the light source, and my maths teacher would dispair and remind me light goes into your eye.

But in effect you can do the calculations either way / direction, if one uses significantly less TF cost, then that is the better solution. I believe this is one of the LocalRay patents....but I have not read them.

So the gist is back to front calculations and half precsion is my understanding, I am sure there something more in the other 30 patents lol

 

[Yoboman]

Sony as well as Microsoft have hardware for RT. Why the hell would they need to use a software based solution that can't take advantage of the hardware, especially when it needs to be fully integrated into the engine (according to the developers)?
Sony and MS have their own APIs for RT, hence I don't see why Sony would buy this. The big AAA studios will most likely make their own software solution if they ever need to. I don't see this being integrated into Decima for example.


Spider-Man was on the N64, Gamecube, WiiU, original Xbox, Xbox 360 and also Xbox One. And yes, I'm talking about the actual Spider-Man games, not a beat em up. Spider-Man was with ALL of the consoles up until Spider-Man 2018.

Sony and Disney did go through a big Spiderman renegotiation last year. Disney got a bigger cut of movie profits. Who is to say other things like game exclusivity wasn't put on the table? Purely speculation based on Spidey now not appearing on other systems currently

 

[Rien]

I mean, if you get that upset of me stating a simple fact, maybe you should be asking yourself that question?

I mean.. I am not trying to ruin someone else their party every time good stuff get announced.

 

[JonnyMP3]

I Remember when we first did light at school I always used to draw the line of sight arrow from my eye to the light source, and my maths teacher would dispair and remind me light goes into your eye.

But in effect you can do the calculations either way / direction, if one uses significantly less TF cost, then that is the better solution. I believe this is one of the LocalRay patents....but I have not read them.

Yeah, I get where you're going with this and the FP16...

This is the type of juice I need in my veins!

 

[Bo_Hazem]

So,

Local Ray is an Israel company who have allot fo patents on doing Ray tracing using lesss power. It is cross playform but there is information it has been taken up by one of the console manufacturers, to what extent we dont know. I am sure there are some surprises coming.

Reading up on it a little, I understand it does the procedure in reverse and I am assuming the local refers to an offset local co ordinate meaning that the engine can use half precision FP16, so you get can get much more performance. I am sure there are allot of other tricks in the 30 odd patents.

CS2020 demo - spiderman seen at 9 seconds.



New york demo pictures

So, the information and pictures would suggest this is Sony as they have recently seemed to acquire spiderman in recent games, such as spiderman, miles morales and the upcoming avengers all exclusive.....and the images are quite clear and set in same as the Insomniac game.

This would mean we are in for a treat next gen with ray tracing.

Yup, Sony and Marvel share the rights of Spiderman and like 99 characters in his universe, this only means that Sony has more secret sauces to the final sandwich.

 

[geordiemp]

Yeah, I get where you're going with this and the FP16...

This is the type of juice I need in my veins!

Yes it could be a big performance gain for Ps5 if employed, and why we are seeing native 4k and Ray tracing even on Sony first showing, I am sure there is more to come. I also noticed a deftly silence on power since seeing the results. I hope it makes its way to all 3rd party and not just Sony games.

 

[LostDonkey]

That can't be PS5 spiderman the character model and proportions look horrendous

 

[JonnyMP3]

Yes it could be a big performance gain for Ps5 if employed,a nd why we are seeing native 4k and Ray tracing even on Sony first showing, I am sure there is more to come. I also noticed a deftly silence on power since seeing the results. I hope it makes its way to all 3rd party and not just Sony games.

Well Cerny did say that the GPU can support multiple profiles from standard GPU to using the Geometry Engine. Obviously he said it's per developer basis but being AMD and having RPM in the box... If these patents do work and at 'modest' costs.

You're giving me too much sauce for a Sunday, Geordie!

 

[geordiemp]

That can't be PS5 spiderman the character model and proportions look horrendous

Its an unshown demo from LocalRay who have signed an NDA witha major console manufacturer.

Do some digging before jumping in ?

 

[Thugnificient]

Most games shown at the sony first party conference had ray tracing and were native 4K, which would kill a 2080ti FPS using traditional BVH, so something is up s Ps5 is punching well above its weight.

2080 Ti would have no problem with RT reflections while targeting 4K/30fps. If you throw the whole suite like Shadows, Debris and all that jazz, then perhaps not but otherwise, it should be OK. Hell, I think with reflections only, even the 2080 can do just fine at 4K/30.

Edit: Also, Spider-Man has a 4K/60 target mode but do we know if that mode features RT? Because it might just be like Demon's Souls which has RT reflections in its 30fps mode and removes them in its performance mode.

 

[Geki-D]

Found another "preview"

Not sure about them being allowed to use the character, but these definitely aren't in-game scenes from Insomniac's game(s). Not saying they aren't real time, I mean it doesn't look like IG's game engine.

 

[LostDonkey]

Its an unshown demo from LocalRay who have signed an NDA witha major console manufacturer.

Do some digging before jumping in ?

What are you on about.

The thread title says PS5 next gen spiderman you goon. And your OP says this is Sony as they acquired spiderman.

So you're now backing away from that claim?

 

[geordiemp]

Not sure about them being allowed to use the character, but these definitely aren't in-game scenes from Insomniac's game(s). Not saying they aren't real time, I mean it doesn't look like IG's game engine.

Never said it was insomiacs game, its a demo, the full demo of New york 2020 spider man ray tracing is not released.

There is an NDA between localray and an un disclosed leading console manufacterer.

You can work on the probabilities...who do you think it is ?

 

[geordiemp]

What are you on about.

The thread title says PS5 next gen spiderman you goon. And your OP says this is Sony as they acquired spiderman.

So you're now backing away from that claim?

I said its likely Sony based on the use of spider man and a new york 2020 demo. Its under NDA.

Its one of the console manufacterers that has take this up, market advice info from LocalRay company and its under Heavy NDA, yes I believe it is Sony....who do you think it is Sherlock ?

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

2080 Ti would have no problem with RT reflections while targeting 4K/30fps. If you throw the whole suite like Shadows, Debris and all that jazz, then perhaps not but otherwise, it should be OK. Hell, I think with reflections only, even the 2080 can do just fine at 4K/30.

Edit: Also, Spider-Man has a 4K/60 target mode but do we know if that mode features RT? Because it might just be like Demon's Souls which has RT reflections in its 30fps mode and removes them in its performance mode.

I think 4k/60 with RT enabled will be a very, very rare sight this gen.

 

[JonnyMP3]

I said its likely Sony based on the use of spider man and a new york 2020 demo. Its under NDA.

Its one of the console manufacterers that has take this up, market advice info from LocalRay company and its under Heavy NDA, yes I believe it is Sony....who do you think it is Sherlock ?

You watch it be Google Stadia
Lol

 

[Bo_Hazem]

2080 Ti would have no problem with RT reflections while targeting 4K/30fps. If you throw the whole suite like Shadows, Debris and all that jazz, then perhaps not but otherwise, it should be OK. Hell, I think with reflections only, even the 2080 can do just fine at 4K/30.

Edit: Also, Spider-Man has a 4K/60 target mode but do we know if that mode features RT? Because it might just be like Demon's Souls which has RT reflections in its 30fps mode and removes them in its performance mode.

It's just like checkerboarding and DLSS, why not use some trickery to improve FPS or add more effects/density if the final result is beautiful and hard to differentiate?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

What are you on about.

The thread title says PS5 next gen spiderman you goon. And your OP says this is Sony as they acquired spiderman.

So you're now backing away from that claim?

You can't just use Spiderman without permission from Sony and Marvel, it would backfire heavily and might drive the company to bankruptcy with a law suit. It looks shitty but it's not meant to be state of the art graphics but to exaggerate the usage of their smart RT implementation to understand how capable it is.

 

[Thugnificient]

It's just like checkerboarding and DLSS, why not use some trickery to improve FPS or add more effects/density if the final results is beautiful and hard to differentiate?

Of course. If you can get the same result or something close while getting much better performance, you'd be foolish not to use it.

 

[LostDonkey]

You can't just use Spiderman without permission from Sony and Marvel, it would backfire heavily and might drive the company to bankruptcy with a law suit. It looks shitty but it's not meant to be state of the art graphics but to exaggerate the usage of their smart RT implementation to understand how capable it is.

I just can't believe Sony would allow anything that looks that bad, demo or not.

 

[Endless Fluff]

That's not what i say.
Spiderman was used for the PS2/PS3 promotions by Sony and the fronts on PS3 are said to be based on Spiderman. Are you trolling or what?

Yes, everyone is trolling when it comes to plastic warZ. Pull your head out of your arse.

Spider-Man was with EVERYONE is what I'm saying. Sony abusing their movie license to have him appear in promotional material or the PS3 reveal doesn't mean shit.

Sony and Disney did go through a big Spiderman renegotiation last year. Disney got a bigger cut of movie profits. Who is to say other things like game exclusivity wasn't put on the table? Purely speculation based on Spidey now not appearing on other systems currently

Of course, everything's possible. However, you usually credit a Marvel/Disney owned IP especially when a big company like Sony would stand behind it... our Israelis here don't credit anything. This typically means that they just took Spider-Man and made a tech demo out of it... and then we look at the timeline. This demo debuted over a year ago at SIGGRAPH19 and is pretty much what put them on the map. There were no talks about "deals with console manufacturers" when it debuted. This came half a year later.

The devs also stated that LocalRay wasn't running on consoles, yet.

If this was a Sony thing, then we would've seen it running on a PS5 and not on Tablets.

It's much more plausible to assume that they made a Spider-Man demo and went to Sony with it to show them what Spider-Man with their tech could look like. This is what most engine devs do, maybe Sony said "yes, looks great we have a deal".

But as I've said before, this will be available on all systems, because it's designed to run on everything, hence I'd love to see this being used on Switch.

 

[01011001]

to me Local Ray still seems super fishy. they somehow have an RT solution that is seemingly way better than Crytek's and has supposedly less of a performance impact

 

[Resenge]

I just can't believe Sony would allow anything that looks that bad, demo or not.

This is not a game you are going to play, it's an internal demo to show off Ray Tracing techniques. Not allowed by Sony or even made by them is what I am taking from the OP's Post. Please correct me if I am wrong. geordiemp

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I just can't believe Sony would allow anything that looks that bad, demo or not.

Why would anyone care, honestly? It's just a mockup to show off the RT. Those aren't games

 

[EverydayBeast]

Graphics are on SONY's resume.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

to me Local Ray still seems super fishy. they somehow have an RT solution that is seemingly way better than Crytek's and has supposedly less of a performance impact

Things change, overtime. Just like Transmissions. I love manual trans in my 4x4, but for smother rides AT's are better. Now we have automated-MT, CVT, etc. Each with its positives and negatives, but most of them try to reach smoother road ride and better fuel efficiency.

 

[LostDonkey]

Why would anyone care, honestly? It's just a mockup to show off the RT. Those aren't games

Because OP is saying that this was created as a Demo for Sony, which I questioned due to quality. Do you think they would just say yeah go use a shitty model and show us what you can do, they would supply a model from their own data. That would be the logical thing to do. If they were working in unison with this Israeli company as is being suggested.

 

[LostDonkey]

This is not a game you are going to play, it's an internal demo to show off Ray Tracing techniques. Not allowed by Sony or even made by them is what I am taking from the OP's Post. Please correct me if I am wrong. geordiemp

OP is suggesting that this is being made for Sony due to this vague NDA with a console manufacturer and that Sony have the rights to spiderman. So it must be allowed by them, right?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Because OP is saying that this was created as a Demo for Sony, which I questioned due to quality. Do you think they would just say yeah go use a shitty model and show us what you can do, they would supply a model from their own data. That would be the logical thing to do. If they were working in unison with this Israeli company as is being suggested.

I'm not sure about what isn't right in it. It's just an internal demo, that's not even playable. Probably they made that shitty spiderman model as an appreciation for Sony's deal? Most Ray Tracing demos look mediocre in terms of models, except from Nvidia.

 

[Resenge]

OP is suggesting that this is being made for Sony due to this vague NDA with a console manufacturer and that Sony have the rights to spiderman. So it must be allowed by them, right?

The model is not the main point of this demo, the Ray Tracing is. So although I agree the models proportions are out of whack I assume it's just not important as it's not meant for the public.

 

[Vroadstar]

That's a good find OP, wonder if ever it's Sony(console manufacturer), when will they announce it and what game will it be used (aside from Spiderman)

I mean.. I am not trying to ruin someone else their party every time good stuff get announced.

He's permed now, chuck out one less troll in a Sony thread.

 

[Rien]

He's permed now, chuck out one less troll in a Sony thread.

I dont usually respond to it but this person together with another are getting really childish. You have to be a special kind of sad to get a perm for console warring on neogaf of all places. This place is pretty tolerable

 

[cragarmi]

OP is suggesting that this is being made for Sony due to this vague NDA with a console manufacturer and that Sony have the rights to spiderman. So it must be allowed by them, right?

If you were making a pitch video to show your tech to Sony, to demonstrate its potential, why wouldnt you pick spiderman to be in the demo?

 

[geordiemp]

I'm not sure about what isn't right in it. It's just an internal demo, that's not even playable. Probably they made that shitty spiderman model as an appreciation for Sony's deal? Most Ray Tracing demos look mediocre in terms of models, except from Nvidia.

#
The pictures are also on the company web site, so its pulic, so LocalRay have permission from either Sony or Marvel to use those image rights. Anyway, we will see soony....

I just can't believe Sony would allow anything that looks that bad, demo or not.

Hold my pint...

 

[Vroadstar]

I dont usually respond to it but this person together with another are getting really childish. You have to be a special kind of sad to get a perm for console warring on neogaf of all places. This place is pretty tolerable

Since Craig was born, some fans here were never the same I agree that Gaf is a tolerable place, just put the usual suspects on Ignore and thread you are interested in will be so much better.

 

[3liteDragon]

Both consoles will be able to do limited Ray Tracing at best on AAA games, especially open world without cut backs in resolution, framerate, and all sorts of other graphical effects. It's just too demanding. People should temper their expectations. However, i do expect the more powerful console to be more ray tracing capable as is expected.

Dude somehow got banned AGAIN even tho he got unbanned like 2 weeks ago lmao

 

[fran.fernandez]

Technology apart, those animations are awful

 

[Bo_Hazem]

#
The pictures are also on the company web site, so its pulic, so LocalRay have permission from either Sony or Marvel to use those image rights. Anyway, we will see soony....





Hold my pint...

Now I read that official tweet, it's clearly 4K@60fps mode, whether it's reconstructed or native.

Swing through the city like never before on PS5 with an optional 4K / 60fps Performance Mode.

They said mode, not modes, and said "an optional" before it.

 

[RaySoft]

Sony does not have the rights to Spiderman.

Sony has owned the Spider-Man character since 1985, and just because they made a deal with Marvel doesn't mean they sold him back.

'Spider-Man' returns to the Marvel universe as Sony, Disney strike new deal

The pact comes a month after the two studios parted ways amid a reported disagreement over profit-sharing.

www.nbcnews.com

Sony has owned the rights to the Spider-Man character since 1985, but in 2015, the studio announced a partnership with Disney and Marvel that made it possible for the webslinger to show up in crossover MCU installments like "Captain America: Civil War" and "Avengers: Infinity War."

 

[Handy Fake]

Sony has owned the Spider-Man character since 1985, and just because they made a deal with Marvel doesn't mean they sold him back.

'Spider-Man' returns to the Marvel universe as Sony, Disney strike new deal

The pact comes a month after the two studios parted ways amid a reported disagreement over profit-sharing.

www.nbcnews.com

It's a little more complicated than that, there are quite a few caveats when it comes to how and where they hold licensing.
But in this case I'd say there's a very good probability that Sony has had a say. To what end remains to be seen.

 

[geordiemp]

Technology apart, those animations are awful

They are slow moving and stationary where possible to show off the reflections which is the technology being displayed. Its not that hard to grasp what is going on here.

What is your point exactly as I have no idea what you are implying.

 

[RaySoft]

Technology apart, those animations are awful

It wasn't the animation that was on display there. It basicly just needs to move to show the effects. (i.e. the RT wouldn't cost more if the animation was better anywas, so it's a moot point.)

 

[RaySoft]

It's a little more complicated than that, there are quite a few caveats when it comes to how and where they hold licensing.
But in this case I'd say there's a very good probability that Sony has had a say. To what end remains to be seen.

IIRC they own the character, but not the Toys business side of it.. There were also some clauses that they had to use him in a movie within some timelimit or something too.
But Sony can use him in movies and games etc. (Even his font on the PS3;-)

 

[Bo_Hazem]

They are slow moving and stationary where possible to show off the reflections which is the technology being displayed. Its not that hard to grasp what is going on here.

What is your point exactly as I have no idea what you are implying.

I think some are looking at it as if it's an exclusive game on PS5. I know, it's an amusing sight. Just don't waste more energy, it's been thoroughly explained already.