Duane Cunningham
Member
Well, it's not like they'll film Bran in a standing position much.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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I wouldn't discount the whole "Lucifer means Lightbringer" argument as a clever hint or allusion because GRRM seems to be fine working within many of the large scale geo-cultural tropes that occur in a lot of fantasy works. This is all already obvious, but Westerosi culture is clearly based of Western culture, the Free Cities and the rest of near-Essos comes off as Middle Eastern (and the geographical relationship between Westeros and Essos is similar to Europe and the Eurasian landmass), there's a Jade Sea in a mysterious land in the Far East, and the darkest-skinned people come from lands to the distant south.
With R'hllor, the point of origin is wrong, but a monotheistic religion that emphasizes the contrast of light and dark as Good and Evil is close enough to Christianity that I think it's totally reasonable to think that GRRM is well aware of the context around the name of the sword.
Doesn't exactly bode well, but it's gonna be interesting to watch play out.
With R'hllor, the point of origin is wrong, but a monotheistic religion that emphasizes the contrast of light and dark as Good and Evil is close enough to Christianity that I think it's totally reasonable to think that GRRM is well aware of the context around the name of the sword.
Doesn't exactly bode well, but it's gonna be interesting to watch play out.
Same here. I don't even remember who the hell Pod is.
Pollux
Member
So if the Red God is evil...and thus the equivalent of Lucifer....who is his opposite? Can't just be the Great Other since he's out to destroy everyone...
Duane Cunningham
Member
Right before aDWD came out, I read all the chapter summaries from Westeros.org (I think). That really helped. I'll probably do it again when WoW comes out in 2018.
That's a good idea, I would reread the books but I only really read a chapter every night or two and I'm enjoying reading other stuff right now.
Although you're right I probably have enough time to get through them several times over.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I don't think that the gods are good or evil, it's how their followers behave that matters.
Kadayi
Banned
^Truth. Given the turgid mess that constitutes AFFC & ADWD (too many characters, a lot of stagnation, frankly unhealthy levels of pointless sadism and way to much 'not dead' rugpulling) it's debatable whether the next two books will live up to the promise of the first three, and GRRM will be able to round out the story line satisfactorily.
badcrumble
Member
I strongly suspect that, as fucked up and seemingly hostile as the Others are, they're not necessarily as interested in wiping out all life or anything and it's not going to come down to some sort of simple 'dark lord' bad guy at the end.
Regarding the religions, I remember reading an interesting theory that the faith of the seven and the faith of R'hllor have the same origin, both being from essos.
Basically, R'hllor reprensent light, and the faith of seven is a prism of light, the seven colors of the rainbow. So there is that too, whatever that means.
Well, in my own case, most of my knowledge of theories and the little details comes from the collective knowledge of the communities such as http://asoiaf.westeros.org/ and their wiki http://awoiaf.westeros.org/.
Also, I have re-read the books three times, ( baring ADWD, which I have read twice ) so that helps
Basically, R'hllor reprensent light, and the faith of seven is a prism of light, the seven colors of the rainbow. So there is that too, whatever that means.
Well, in my own case, most of my knowledge of theories and the little details comes from the collective knowledge of the communities such as http://asoiaf.westeros.org/ and their wiki http://awoiaf.westeros.org/.
Also, I have re-read the books three times, ( baring ADWD, which I have read twice ) so that helps
There doesn't have to be an opposite. Maybe The Great Other and the the Red God are both on the evil end of the spectrum (with TGO being the worst of the two obviously).
The thing about gods and deities in ASOIAF is that it's hard to qualify them as simply evil or good. They mostly just are. If you ask me the Old Gods are mostly neutral, or benevolent where nature is concerned. The Faceless One (or whatever his name is) seems neutral. He's just the god of death. It seems like they all exist in some fashion though, with the exception of the Seven. None of what has happened so far in the books can be attributed to the Seven IIRC. By and large they never listen to prayers, and none of the surnatural elements that have happened appear to be their doing... Unless we just don't know enough about Maesters and wizards.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
99% sure it was Cersei who ordered the hit in the books. She's also behind the murder of Robert's bastards. I really dislike how they're shifting her crimes to Joffrey in the show. He's already a despicable villain even without that.
I disagree that the Seven would be the only false religion, simply because their practitioners are the only ones who haven't exhibited any magic of some form. It seem to me that it just as likely the other religions followers ( or predecessor ) have discovered magic and are simply attributing it to their 'deity'. While this is fantasy, it is not the world of Tolkien.
Yes, I have a hard time taking these religious nut-cases seriously. On one side, followers of the Lord of Light sacrifice people and idols of other religions by burning them. They stare into their fires looking for guidance, but as often as not they have no idea of how to interpret what it is they are seeing.
The faceless men are no better either. They say that only the faceless one may take a life. Oh, but don't worry, the faceless one will take a life given enough coins. They are just assassin, acting under the pretense that their murder is somehow justified by their god. I sincerely hope Arya makes a break with that institution at some point. Alas, her future is dark...
The 'old gods', i.e. the children of the forest aren't gods either. They are just supernatural fantasy creatures, like the dragons. And to be honest, they are quite the creepy lot too.
Yes, I have a hard time taking these religious nut-cases seriously. On one side, followers of the Lord of Light sacrifice people and idols of other religions by burning them. They stare into their fires looking for guidance, but as often as not they have no idea of how to interpret what it is they are seeing.
The faceless men are no better either. They say that only the faceless one may take a life. Oh, but don't worry, the faceless one will take a life given enough coins. They are just assassin, acting under the pretense that their murder is somehow justified by their god. I sincerely hope Arya makes a break with that institution at some point. Alas, her future is dark...
The 'old gods', i.e. the children of the forest aren't gods either. They are just supernatural fantasy creatures, like the dragons. And to be honest, they are quite the creepy lot too.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I actually don't think it was Cersei in the books. She never thinks about that moment in Feast (despite thinking about how much she wants Tyrion dead, and even thinking about his facial scar), which makes me really doubt she had anything to do with it. I think it was either Joffrey or Littlefinger who told Ser Mandon to try and kill Tyrion.
Sending one of the Kingsguard to do a cutthroat's job is as crude as sending a cutthroat with a valyrian blade out of the kings armory. While both smell like a stew Joffrey would cook ( and the latter is in fact that ), like I said before, I don't think Mandon Moore acted under either Cersei or Joffrey. They are primary suspect, so suspect that even a child could say they are suspect. Who else commands the Kingsguard to do anything? Well, for one, there is Littlefinger, whom somehow have managed to sneak people who are his from the beginning into the Kingsguard. And while Moore is no Kettleblack, he came with Jon Arryn from the Vale, and was notoriously disliked by most. In my opinion, it just seem like something he would do, to maximize suspicion and chaos amongst the Lannister.
In fact, now that I think of it, even if Joffrey gave the order, it is possible that Littlefinger convinced Joffrey to send Moore... Or rather, hinted at it. It is much the same way Joffrey got the idea that he should send a cutthroat to kill Bran because of something Robert said. He is easily manipulated like that.
As for Cersei, I mean, we have multiple POV of Cersei and she doesn't even give a second thought about Mandon Moore and his attempt, as far as I remember.
In fact, now that I think of it, even if Joffrey gave the order, it is possible that Littlefinger convinced Joffrey to send Moore... Or rather, hinted at it. It is much the same way Joffrey got the idea that he should send a cutthroat to kill Bran because of something Robert said. He is easily manipulated like that.
As for Cersei, I mean, we have multiple POV of Cersei and she doesn't even give a second thought about Mandon Moore and his attempt, as far as I remember.
I haven't looked into it seriously tbh, but I certainly understand where you're coming from. Yours is as believable a theory as mine, if not more.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I completely agree with this. In the North they attribute the magic powers to the old gods, the Red priests attribute it to R'hllor, in Braavos the Faceless Men attribute it to the Many-Faced God, Mirri Maz Duur attribute her healing powers to the Great Shepherd, etc.
When in doubt, Littlefinger did it.
Didn't Davos saw the Mother making some kind of miracle or did my fervent imagination made that up? Either way, I also remember saying in some interview with R.R.Martin that [future past ADWD spoilers]
there will be miracles performed by The Seven too, which points out that every single God has some kind of power.
In my view, it is not magic per se, but rather intelligent beings with agendas of their own. Remember the whole Varys story about how a voice "answered" the wizard that burnt his manhood? I think that we are here for a bigger, more "cosmic" game of thrones here, with two "gods" of Ice and Fire using mankind as pawns of their own game of dominance.
Said entities, as un-human as they are, could hardly being classified as "good" or "evil". I think that they want, above all, is adoration from their worshippers, with their powers taking whichever shape suit better their follower's desires. Are you evil? There, have some terrifying shadow babies. Are you a good person? There, resurrection for your fallen comrades. I think that the whole mentality of ASIOFAF's gods is "I don't care what you ask for me as long as you worship me in return". They are gods, in the truest Greek sense of the word: they are not bad nor evil, their moral is not human at all. They are just vying for power, and that's pretty much all there is.
I think that the Maesters and Varys are the ones that wants to free mankind from the caprice of these supernatural entities once for all, hence the whole policy of "let's end with magic so these motherfucker's influence in the world decreases". I don't believe that all magic steems from them, but rather that magic is just their Gateway to our world, so to speak. And that while for the old sorcerers, having interdimensional entities or whatsoever meddling with mankind was a small price to pay for their wicked gifts, for the commonners it probably sucked bollocks. So count me in the team "magic is bound to fuck this world rather tan improve it" and "maesters are actually the good guys of Westeros, as cool as the faceless men are".
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Davos hears the Mother in his first Storm of Swords chapter. Whether you believe the Mother actually spoke to him, or that he was imagining the whole thing due to being starving and dehydrated is up to you.
Duane Cunningham
Member
I dig it. Just like the comet, people see magic and attribute it to whatever they already like.
bengraven
Member
Yeah, I don't actually remember her straight up saying it. She may have just been guilty consciousing it.
Pollux
Member
Just to play devil's advocate...
But they all have different powers. Say we go with the assumption that these gods are real, then maybe these gods can only grant certain powers to their followers. I'm pretty sure it's only those who follow the Old Gods who can warg, that only the followers of R'Hollor are able to do all the fire crap, that only the followers of the Many-Faced God can change their faces, etc.
Some gods might choose their followers and bestow gifts (i.e. magical powers) on them, such as the Old Gods and the Stark children.
Others might only bestow their gifts on those whom they deem to be worthy, such as Arya and the Faceless Men or Melisandre and R'Hollor.
Others, such as Mirri Maz Durr's Great Shephard might only grant gifts (miracles/magic powers) to those in a specific bloodline once they have accomplished certain rituals or said specific prayers. We know that MMD was a shaman, as was her mother before her, and her mother before her, etc.
I think it's a perfectly reasonable belief that all these different gods are real and that the "real" game of thrones is these gods choosing their champions and moving them around the chessboard trying to best one another.
Also, where does it say that the Old Gods = Children of the Forrest?
They aren't the same thing, but they are homedogs. Maybe even "symbiotic" in some way? CotF carve the faces in the Weirwoods to give the Gods sight, which the gods share with the children?
Pollux
Member
I don't think that the faces give the gods sight, I think the faces just allow the children to be able to utilize one of the "gifts" the Old Gods gave to their followers.
Or something like that.
Steelyuhas
Member
Yeah we'll have to visit the issue for the next season. People seem to have figured it out now, but the first couple weeks of the new season was a fucking disaster of people not knowing what thread was what, the rules for each, general complaining about the rules, and not knowing that there was two threads at all.
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Oh, and about the Cersei or Joffrey ordering the hit on Tyrion, I thought that Tyrion starting talking about Joffrey doing it simply because he knew that Cersei wouldn't admit to it. I still think he thinks she ordered the hit, just like he appears to think in the books.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I like this idea. It's so meta.
It reminds me of what happened with real life religions in Europe. The Mediterranean world had a sort of universal cult of the Earth Mother Goddess, which, through the spread of farming and the movement of people, was supplanted and ousted by the Sky Father God of the Proto-Indo-Europeans (the progenitor of Zeus, Jupiter etc.). It stayed that way for a long time until the spread of Christianity brought the Semitic version of the Father (or possibly Thunder) God to Europe and nearly eradicated the Earth Mother Goddess and the Indoeuropean Sky Father God entirely.
But then, Catholicism got really into Mary, which (sort of) brought the Mother Goddess back!
blainethemono
Member
I thought the "old gods" were just COTF who warged into weirwoods to extend their lives after death. Basically if you have the ability you can "become" an old god. Which also makes it more brutal when the andals come over and destroy all the weirwoods in the south
arglebargle
Member
i remember the books fairly well, possibly because i read this thread so much. what i dont remember is the show for some reason. also, i plan to reread the books as soon as we have a firm date for the release of the next one, as a refresher.
True. But is this proof of unique gods or that once magic is discovered and used, its users will naturally develop unique way to practice it. Liken it to a language. Two group of people speaking the same language, if separated, will definitely develop unique traits. Given enough time the languages will be unintelligible to each other.
Though I admit that if most of the gods are indeed 'real' in the context of the series, then the former is more likely. But only if.
If they were real, this is probably the case. But personally I don't see why we should assume they are. Obviously there is magic that requires certain rituals, or talents. Still, people are willingly to believe and have faith in most anything even if they don't actively display magic. If thats the case, then there is no reason to believe that R'hllor, the actual deity ( if he was real ), is anything like their practitioners believe him to be. He would just be one among many, not one among two, hence the tenets of many of these religions would be wrong anyway.
CrashBandicoot
Member
Kinda random thought...
Has Martin ever mentioned whether or not the title (A Song of Ice and Fire) was alluding to Wagner and the use of leitmotif in his music?
If so, then the "song" in the title is actually the offspring between fire and ice which in conjunction with who we all assume to be Jon's parents kinda makes it a bit more obvious.
Has this been discussed before?
Has Martin ever mentioned whether or not the title (A Song of Ice and Fire) was alluding to Wagner and the use of leitmotif in his music?
If so, then the "song" in the title is actually the offspring between fire and ice which in conjunction with who we all assume to be Jon's parents kinda makes it a bit more obvious.
Has this been discussed before?
It has, to great lengths, I think the general consensus it's either: dragons vs. others, fire vs. ice or, indeed: the story of Jon Snow, the offspring of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar)
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Heh. Yeah, I was thinking, he would be looking for new gig, wouldn't he? Wonder how they are gonna deal with that. Still, interesting how no one seem to smell that something is off. It helps when these folks encourage thinking such as "Robb will be around for a looong time."
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
They'll find out soon.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
I agree.
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
No more than the show itself is spoiling the story for readers.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
So basically, the big bad of the show is the ice people, and the good guys is the fire god?
I get the feeling that they are essentially winter and summer, fighting eachother for all eternity.
I get the feeling that they are essentially winter and summer, fighting eachother for all eternity.
Basileus777
Member
What was said before the edit?
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
"I see what you did there".
Thank god we're not far away from it now. I just hope they manage to miss anything spoilerish before it happens.
To be honest, I don't like it when people post sly comments like that, it means other people respond to it thinking they're being sly and eventually someone will work out that something is up.
To be honest, I don't like it when people post sly comments like that, it means other people respond to it thinking they're being sly and eventually someone will work out that something is up.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Yeah, it is not that subtle guys.
I'm looking at you, Stannis defenders.
Whenever I see someone loving Stannis in the non-book thread, I immediately assume they are book readers
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