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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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S

Supermanisdead

Member
Man, if people were upset about Ros.... RW will be a MAJOR TV event.

Speaking of Ros, why did they kill her as soon as she started becoming interesting? I really liked her relationship with the KL cast.
 
L

Levi

Banned
Supermanisdead said:
Speaking of Ros, why did they kill her as soon as she started becoming interesting? I really liked her relationship with the KL cast.
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What would Ros do? She can't accompany LF--Lysa would freak if Petyr brought a whore near her precious son. She can't spy on Petyr for Varys after LF is in the Eyrie. They could waste a bunch of screen time shoehorning her into even more episodes... But it's easier to just kill her off and clear the slate for all the new characters being introduced in Season 4
 
B

Boom Boom Pow

Banned
Morrigan Targaryen said:
Somewhere around the time Arya was at Harrenhal, I'd say.



He did save Ned... by offering him to confess and take the black. Ned wasn't condemned to death. Joffrey just went ahead and executed him anyway.
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no, the queen offered that. But Varys helped snuck Tyrion out. He didn't do that for Ned.

Remember, Tywin was gonna allow Tyrion the black as well
 
Z

ZeroRay

Member
Looks like the writers didn't have a purpose for Ros anymore and had to write her out. So she jobbed out by putting Littlefinger over.

I wonder if anyone in the show is gonna be like, "Hey where'd Ros go?"
 
ToyMachine228

ToyMachine228

Member
Atlantis said:
Catelyn's POV pretty much made the Red Wedding what it is, at least to me. Not just the brutality of her death, but being inside her head as it happened and reading her thoughts about her children and Ned.
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I agree. While I didnt like Catelyn at all, reading her thoughts as her own son and King of the North gets brutally murdered...as well as other likeable characters and bannerman. So many terrible things had happened to her but then she was forced to watch this. That line about her hair really put a cherry on it. She had officially lost it before they slit her throat. It was her PoV that made the Red Wedding so brutal and shocking. And then the Grey Wind news after just put salt in the wound.
 
L

Last Hearth

Member
I thought LF's speech was the producers talking to the fans about why Ros died.

"It was a bad investment".

"She didn't bring me any pleasures, she didn't bring you any pleasure".

etc, etc.
 
B

badcrumble

Member
Supermanisdead said:
Man, if people were upset about Ros.... RW will be a MAJOR TV event.

Speaking of Ros, why did they kill her as soon as she started becoming interesting? I really liked her relationship with the KL cast.
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Ros should have replaced Ser Dontos in the arc about Sansa's escape from King's Landing, since he's vanished from the show. Then she'd just get a crossbow bolt to the stomach when she reached Littlefinger's ship.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
badcrumble said:
Ros should have replaced Ser Dontos in the arc about Sansa's escape from King's Landing, since he's vanished from the show. Then she'd just get a crossbow bolt to the stomach when she reached Littlefinger's ship.
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They decided to have Littlefinger interact with her directly. It probably makes more sense that way, they don't need more characters and it's a good way to keep Littlefinger on screen. It wouldn't make any sense for Sansa to be meeting whores anyway.
 
Pollux

Pollux

Member
Morrigan Targaryen said:
Must... resist....


Bah.I'm sick of always getting into the same arguments so I'll just say, fuck the Catelyn haters. Seriously. Robb is a thousand times stupider. He's responsible for the downfall of Winterfell and of his house. If only he had listened to his mother...
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I hate Robb too, but he a young boy compared to Cat. She should know better than to be such a dumbass.
 
B

Buckethead

Banned
I think Catelyn is a pretty hatable character.

They tried to slide that little speech about Jon into this season to make her a little more redeemable but her nagging gets a little old.

The rest o' the fish are much more interesting.
 
T

Trasher

Member
Morrigan Targaryen said:
Must... resist....


Bah.I'm sick of always getting into the same arguments so I'll just say, fuck the Catelyn haters. Seriously. Robb is a thousand times stupider. He's responsible for the downfall of Winterfell and of his house. If only he had listened to his mother...
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Robb was a kid though. Of course he was stupid. He fell in love for the first time. He wasn't ready to lead a kingdom. The blame goes to the people around him that should have counseled him better. That would include Catelyn. If anything, Robb made decisions based on his emotions which is exactly what his mother taught him/was known for. Catelyn deserves more of the blame for destroying house Stark.
 
T

Trasher

Member
Moff said:
House stark gets destroyed because they follow honor above reason. the show reflects that well, I think.
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It would have been fine if Robb actually kept his word and married the Frey girl. Well maybe not fine, but it would have been a different story.

But yes, the show does reflect that fairly well.

Hindle said:
Anyone else think the demon Varys hears is the thing behind the White Walkers? A wild theory I know.
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Not sure if serious or trolling, but yes, that's why the flame was blue.
 
M

Massa

Member
Trasher said:
It would have been fine if Robb actually kept his word and married the Frey girl. Well maybe not fine, but it would have been a different story.

But yes, the show does reflect that fairly well.
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It would also have been fine if the Frey's weren't complete cunts.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Massa said:
It would also have been fine if the Frey's weren't complete cunts.
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No, even if they weren't they still would have abandoned Robb after he betrayed them. Robb would have just been stuck in the south and been defeated by the Lannisters/Tyrells. Robb was pretty much doomed the minute he accepted a crown. His only hope from then on was that the rest of the realm would stay fragmented indefinitely because the Riverlands are pretty much indefensible. if Robb was smart he would have bent the knee to Renly, or if he was principled, he would have backed Stannis. He made the worst possible choice.
 
Trojita

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Trasher said:
Robb was a kid though. Of course he was stupid. He fell in love for the first time. He wasn't ready to lead a kingdom. The blame goes to the people around him that should have counseled him better. That would include Catelyn. If anything, Robb made decisions based on his emotions which is exactly what his mother taught him/was known for. Catelyn deserves more of the blame for destroying house Stark.
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There's speculation that Jeyne Westerling's mother Sybell Spicer used a love potion on Robb.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Trojita said:
There's speculation that Jeyne Westerling's mother Sybell Spicer used a love potion on Robb.
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That would be absolutely awful. What a way to undermine Robb's entire character arc. That would be even worst than Maggie the Frog, GRRM's current king of shitty plot devices.
 
T

Trasher

Member
Moff said:
I am pretty sure actually.
the guy with the norse mythology blog also touches on the subject in his latest entry
http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.ch/2013/05/lokis-tricks-children-of-forest.html

another interesting read, and in my opinion not an unlikely outcome for the saga
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That was super interesting. Made a lot of sense. Wonder if Jon's Targaryen bastard connection will be important to Bloodraven. Maybe Bloodraven takes over his corpse since it shares the same blood and Bran will assume Bloodraven's former role once he does so.

Anyone figure out the meaning of the Others taking the baby boys? Do they end up becoming Others? Or do the Others just use them aka Varys penis magic shit?
 
Krelian91

Krelian91

Member
Moff said:
House stark gets destroyed because they follow honor above reason. the show reflects that well, I think.
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Ironically enough, I believe that house Stark's greatest mistakes happen just when they forsake honor for their own personal feelings. (and a lot of stupidity.)

See Eddard telling Cersei about his discovery and Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling. Honor had nothing to do with neither.
 
Moff

Moff

Member
Krelian91 said:
See Eddard telling Cersei about his discovery and Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling. Honor had nothing to do with neither.
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I am not sure what you mean, the book makes it clear on many occassions that robb felt honorbound to marry jeyne.
and ned telling cersei was surely unreasonable, as I already said. he just refused to play the game, he felt a direct an honest approach would work, but that was unreasonable. when he finally tried to play the game, he died.
 
M

Massa

Member
Basileus777 said:
No, even if they weren't they still would have abandoned Robb after he betrayed them. Robb would have just been stuck in the south and been defeated by the Lannisters/Tyrells. Robb was pretty much doomed the minute he accepted a crown. His only hope from then on was that the rest of the realm would stay fragmented indefinitely because the Riverlands are pretty much indefensible. if Robb was smart he would have bent the knee to Renly, or if he was principled, he would have backed Stannis. He made the worst possible choice.
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Perhaps, but maybe he wouldn't have the same level of support from his bannerman and won so many battles if they were just fighting for Stannis rather than independence.

Robb was actually close to winning the war at a point. Sure he made mistakes, but who didn't?
 
Krelian91

Krelian91

Member
Moff said:
I am not sure what you mean, the book makes it clear on many occassions that robb felt honorbound to marry jeyne.
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Yeah, but that's just because he decided to fuck her. The really honorable thing would have been staying faithful to his Frey betrothed.
 
T

Trasher

Member
Moff said:
I am not sure what you mean, the book makes it clear on many occassions that robb felt honorbound to marry jeyne.
and ned telling cersei was surely unreasonable, as I already said. he just refused to play the game, he felt a direct an honest approach would work, but that was unreasonable. when he finally tried to play the game, he died.
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He was already honor bound to the Frey girl though. Doesn't matter if he 'felt' honor bound to Jeyne. He wasn't. That's a clear case of Catelyn emotion overpowering the honorable decision.
 
Moff

Moff

Member
Robb made a mistake, yes. but it was not a decision, "it happened" and he slept with jeyne.
everything that happened after that, all his real decisions were honorbound. he took responsibility for his mistake with this decision.
you cant say "honor had nothing to do with it", its all about honor with the starks.

just like his father with jon btw. at least in the version robb knows.
 
T

Trasher

Member
You always have a choice to make one decision over another. Saying that it 'just happened' and that he was powerless to do anything but is a bit ridiculous.

Unless there truly was a love potion lolol.
 
Z

Zabka

Member
Moff said:
House stark gets destroyed because they follow honor above reason. the show reflects that well, I think.
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Being honorable isn't their only problem. Expecting others to act honorably is what keeps killing them. That's why Ned just walks up to Cersei and tells her he knows what's been going on. It's also why Robb sends Theon back to Pyke for some stupid ass reason.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Massa said:
Perhaps, but maybe he wouldn't have the same level of support from his bannerman and won so many battles if they were just fighting for Stannis rather than independence.

Robb was actually close to winning the war at a point. Sure he made mistakes, but who didn't?
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Robb was never close to winning this war one he took the crown, he was always hoping for Stannis or Renly to take King's Landing. And then he'd face to fight them if he wanted to remain a King. There's was never any clear path to victory for Robb that didn't involve bending the knee to someone. Robb was a great military leader and a poor king. He locked himself into an unwinnable war and then made it even worse by underestimating Balon Greyjoy, breaking oaths, and alienating his vassals.
 
Moff

Moff

Member
Trasher said:
You always have a choice to make one decision over another. Saying that it 'just happened' and that he was powerless to do anything but is a bit ridiculous.

Unless there truly was a love potion lolol.
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I felt the book tried really hard to show robb was man who tried to do the honorful thing after a mistake. he was young and fell for a girl although he knew it was wrong. it was not a decision, but he made the honofrul decision afterwards by marrying her.

I am not even saying that this is true, but when I read it I felt GRRM tried really hard to stress that robb did everything because he held up honor so high.

its also important to me because I think he tries to show what happens to people who refuse to lie and cheat but act justly and with honor. in a world like westeros they get smashed to pieces.
 
B

badcrumble

Member
Basileus777 said:
They decided to have Littlefinger interact with her directly. It probably makes more sense that way, they don't need more characters and it's a good way to keep Littlefinger on screen. It wouldn't make any sense for Sansa to be meeting whores anyway.
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Sure, but they'd also established a relationship between Ros and Shae, given Shae reasons to want to go behind Tyrion's back to get Sansa out of KL, et cetera. I think it actually would have worked really well that way, tbqh.
 
L

Levi

Banned
Book Robb is injured, consumed by grief and potentially even under the influence of milk of the poppy when he fucks Jeyne. It's not something he would have done under normal circumstances.

We know the outcomes of his decisions, so it seems clear in hindsight that he should have told Edmure his plans or abandoned Jeyne despoiled or not trusted Roose's bastard to liberate Winterfell

Even if Robb made better decisions, who knows if Roose and Tywin wouldn't have found another way to accomplish the same thing,
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
All this is making me wonder if the Lannister Honeypot theory has been discussed here. It's the TV show, not the book, but if true, I think I like it better.
 
B

bodyofanamerican

Member
Moff said:
I am pretty sure actually.
the guy with the norse mythology blog also touches on the subject in his latest entry
http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.ch/2013/05/lokis-tricks-children-of-forest.html

another interesting read, and in my opinion not an unlikely outcome for the saga
Click to expand...

That made complete and total sense. So much so, that I feel like I know how the saga is going to play out now (in broad strokes of course). All I need/want now is for GRRM make Jaime Lannister the savior of humanity.
 
Moff

Moff

Member
i_am_not_jon_ames said:
That made complete and total sense. So much so, that I feel like I know how the saga is going to play out now (in broad strokes of course). All I need/want now is for GRRM make Jaime Lannister the savior of humanity.
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read his other blog entry. its probably what will happen. jaime seems to be the sigurd of a song of ice and fire.

and the events in ASOIAF were set in motion by jaime pushing bran out of the window, and it will probably end between the two again
 
I

Ikael

Member
fanboi said:
So, what plans do you guys have for the non book reader thread post RW? I need to come up with something.
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For all your Red Wedding needs

XsadW.gif
 
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