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Batman v Superman Ultimate Edition rated R by the MPAA

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B

broncobuster

Banned
ViewtifulJC said:
Remember that time Superman just covered Darkseid's eyes so he accidently took himself out instead of snapping his neck.

That was cool.

That was a good Superman adaptation, DCAU. The comic I posted earlier was from the same universe.
Click to expand...

For all its problems Man of Steel showed audiences what happens when you try to cover heat vision.

RHCoLCB.gif


..but he never tried using a mirror he stole from a truck.

ujHTT8e.gif
 
G

Garlador

Member
Shamrock7r said:
Garlador ain't coming back after this post, lol
Click to expand...

Right here.

Show me where he ruins that man's livelihood or causes permanent physical or financial harm to him.

He embarrasses him. That's different than destroying his life.

Edit: And that car being smashed belong to criminals who were trying to murder and kidnap people. Not just some bully. Geez.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Error said:
This is why Bats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Superman

We can have campy Batman, dark and brooding Bats, Old and jaded Batman (TDKR) and no one gives a shit. As soon as someone deviates a bit from the Donner archetype of Superman "that's not muh Superman!"

It's the reason why Superman Returns flopped, it's the reason why MoS is divisive. Do people really expect for a big studio to make a Superman movie in which he doesn't fight anything and just saves people and inspires hope? 2 hours, of just that... Even the DCAU threw punches and wrecked shit when he needed, DCAU also presented a Superman that killed remember the Justice Lords arc? In fact Superman killing and going rogue was the WHOLE point of the Cadmus arc in the JL animated series, why do people act like trust issues with Superman and the public is something new?
Click to expand...
To be fair Batman is much easier to write than Superman.

The whole point of Superman is that he is Superman. He is super everything, on a physical, moral and intellectual level. When there's a challenge that Superman is up against, you aren't really thinking of how Superman will conquer this challenge. His character is made to beat anything that is thrown at him. So any time there's a situation where Superman is actually challenged, you just assume Superman is just slacking or not trying at his peak potential. That's why you have to introduce mcguffin weaknesses like Kryptonite or depower Superman greatly.

In one comic, Superman gets cancer from being close to the sun... in another he becomes a cosmic god. There's just wildly different interpretations of not only Superman's character but his power level as well.

Some of the more interesting stories of Superman involve him dying (like All Star) or situations where his toolset can't deal with a situation (like when Pa Kent died of a heart of attack)... but there are only so many ways you can write these stories. That's why Death of Superman is brought up so much... despite being not that great of a story it was one of the few times where Superman actually met his physical match and he appeared to have tried his level best yet still got whooped... everyone around him got legit shook.



Even in BvS... this story is only compelling from the point of view of Batman. He's the underdog, he's the one who has to do research, he's the one who has to prep, develop new technology, he's the one who has to train, he's the one who is in any physical danger... Superman just has to show up. That's why this character is so hard to resonate with audiences.
 
T

The Adder

Banned
Got the last post on the previous page. Reposting:

So I recently watched MoS again, my girlfriend's first time.

Gotta say, having watched it with her, there was no better way to end that fight than having Clark kill Zod.

Why?

Because as the fight is winding down, before Zod starts threatening the family, but after he'd clearly won, my gf was sitting there just demanding he kill Zod.

And then he did. And she went pale and silent. She was as horrified at it as Clark was. She FELT for him. And she understood something that months of my debating with her about this very subject had failed to really convince her of.

She understood why Superman doesn't kill.

Had the fight ended any other way she'd still be saying that it was stupid he didn't kill Zod.

I didn't see that when I saw it on my own. But that moment was almost profound.

Snyder knows what he's doing.
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
the real flaw at the heart of DC comics is how all these characters were made many years ago before they even thought about continuity or even coherent characterizations. Not like Marvel where Spider-Man was Spider-Man on day one. They've been trying to "figure out" Superman and Wonder Woman and Aquaman and shit for decades. They've been reconciling and rebooting and re birthing and redoing and reviving for God knows how long, in god knows how many forms. You can't even say "Wonder Woman wouldn't do that!", cuz what the fuck even is Wonder Woman's characterization? How powerful is she really? Supporting cast, villains, etc? You gotta check the date, are we on Marston's psychosexual power fantasy, Perez' superwoman, Azzerrelo Greek warrior, who knows. They're on a ever moving train, changing carriages whenever the sales get low or particularity creative vacant.

Batman's lucky he doesn't have any powers and his Bill Finger years got the most "right" after he stopped being a Shadow rip-off. He's adaptable to anything.
 
J

jetjevons

Bish loves my games!
In the R Rated version Batman and Superman are both unapologetic murderers, as interpreted by Zach Synder.

The Aristocrats!
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
So this is gonna be like the R-rated cut of Live Free or Die Hard, with dubbed expletives and CGI blood spurts added in post-production?
 
D

Dead

well not really...yet
Very cool. All of Snyder's Director's Cuts are superior to the theatrical, so hopefully BvS doesn't feel gimped in theaters

Im kinda hoping we see a Man of Steel Director's Cut for the upcoming 4K release in order to smoothe out a couple of the rough edges that are able to be smoothed out.
 
S

Shamrock7r

Member
The Adder said:
Got the last post on the previous page. Reposting:

So I recently watched MoS again, my girlfriend's first time.

Gotta say, having watched it with her, there was no better way to end that fight than having Clark kill Zod.

Why?

Because as the fight is winding down, before Zod starts threatening the family, but after he'd clearly won, my gf was sitting there just demanding he kill Zod.

And then he did. And she went pale and silent. She was as horrified at it as Clark was. She FELT for him. And she understood something that months of my debating with her about this very subject had failed to really convince her of.

She understood why Superman doesn't kill.

Had the fight ended any other way she'd still be saying that it was stupid he didn't kill Zod.

I didn't see that when I saw it on my own. But that moment was almost profound.

Snyder knows what he's doing.
Click to expand...

It's a great take on what happened in the comics. In a way I prefer the way the movie handled it because Superman has to make a choice right there and then, whereas when it occurred in the comics he had a little more time to rationalize it.
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
I also love that when it was PG-13, it was bullshit to constrain the action sequences and deny us the Batman we've yearned for all these years.

But now that the extended cut is R, it's suddenly a Superman movie again, and is proof nobody understands anything about Superman, a character people know isn't a Jesus figure, but whom they also treat with more pious reverence than most theists actually show towards the actual Jesus.
 
G

generic_username

I switched to an alt account to ditch my embarrassing tag so I could be an embarrassing Naughty Dog fanboy in peace. Ask me anything!
I wonder if we will get this kind of a scene from Affleck. I personally would love it but I dont know if Snyder can pull it off without it looking goofy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0kB_W_g_4U

Bobby Roberts said:
I also love that when it was PG-13, it was bullshit to constrain the action sequences and deny us the Batman we've yearned for all these years.

But now that the extended cut is R, it's suddenly a Superman movie again, and is proof nobody understands anything about Superman, a character people know isn't a Jesus figure, but whom they also treat with more pious reverence than most theists actually show towards the actual Jesus.
Click to expand...

lol
 
G

Garlador

Member
Shamrock7r said:
https://youtu.be/jUORL-bvwA0?t=42s
Why is it so hard for you to admit you are incorrect about this history of Superman?
Click to expand...

You didn't answer my question. Where in Action Comics #1 does he destroy that man's life? You're avoiding the question.

Also... I saw the extended version of Superman II first.
... The film ends with them getting arrested. My memory might be faulty, but I think in the Donner Cut version he reverses time so they're just trapped in the Phantom Zone again.
 
E

Error

Jealous of the Glory that is Johnny Depp
ViewtifulJC said:
the real flaw at the heart of DC comics is how all these characters were made many years ago before they even thought about continuity or even coherent characterizations. Not like Marvel where Spider-Man was Spider-Man on day one. They've been trying to "figure out" Superman and Wonder Woman and Aquaman and shit for decades. They've been reconciling and rebooting and re birthing and redoing and reviving for God knows how long, in god knows how many forms. You can't even say "Wonder Woman wouldn't do that!", cuz what the fuck even is Wonder Woman's characterization? How powerful is she really? Supporting cast, villains, etc? You gotta check the date, are we on Marston's psychosexual power fantasy, Perez' superwoman, Azzerrelo Greek warrior, who knows. They're on a ever moving train, changing carriages whenever the sales get low or particularity creative vacant.

Batman's lucky he doesn't have any powers and his Bill Finger years got the most "right" after he stopped being a Shadow rip-off. He's adaptable to anything.
Click to expand...

that's probably why the Elseworlds stories are some of the best from DC comics, writers don't have to bother with continuity in those, and are able tell a single unified narrative with a beginning and an ending.
 
S

Shamrock7r

Member
Garlador said:
You didn't answer my question. Where in Action Comics #1 does he destroy that man's life? You're avoiding the question.

Also... I saw the extended version of Superman II first.
... The film ends with them getting arrested.
Click to expand...

You mean a deleted scene.

You've been given countless examples. You have flip flopped on your what your interpretation means and/or ignored examples entirely. There is nothing wrong with saying "you know what, you guys are right".
 
L

LionPride

Banned
Bobby Roberts said:
I also love that when it was PG-13, it was bullshit to constrain the action sequences and deny us the Batman we've yearned for all these years.

But now that the extended cut is R, it's suddenly a Superman movie again, and is proof nobody understands anything about Superman, a character people know isn't a Jesus figure, but whom they also treat with more pious reverence than most theists actually show towards the actual Jesus.
Click to expand...
I love how yoh always come in just shutting stuff down
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
the real flaw at the heart of DC comics is how all these characters were made many years ago before they even thought about continuity or even coherent characterizations. Not like Marvel where Spider-Man was Spider-Man on day one. They've been trying to "figure out" Superman and Wonder Woman and Aquaman and shit for decades. They've been reconciling and rebooting and re birthing and redoing and reviving for God knows how long, in god knows how many forms. You can't even say "Wonder Woman wouldn't do that!", cuz what the fuck even is Wonder Woman's characterization? How powerful is she really? Supporting cast, villains, etc? You gotta check the date, are we on Marston's psychosexual power fantasy, Perez' superwoman, Azzerrelo Greek warrior, who knows. They're on a ever moving train, changing carriages whenever the sales get low or particularity creative vacant.

Batman's lucky he doesn't have any powers and his Bill Finger years got the most "right" after he stopped being a Shadow rip-off. He's adaptable to anything.
Click to expand...
Yeah DC doesn't know what they want to do with Wonder Woman, hell they just put out ANOTHER origin story for her.

The good thing about WW and Aquaman is that there's no general public nostalgia attached to those characters. No one is going to be like "oh man they didn't get WW character's like in that TV show decades ago".
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Error said:
that's probably why the Elseworlds stories are some of the best from DC comics, writers don't have to bother with continuity in those, and are able tell a single unified narrative with a beginning and an ending.
Click to expand...

OTOH, while they're often confused, some of those individual takes on the heroes lead to some amazing stuff. The characters are perhaps weaker from a meta perspective, but those stories are, in and of themselves, often quite excellent.
 
G

Garlador

Member
Shamrock7r said:
You mean a deleted scene.

You've been given countless examples. You have flip flopped on your what your interpretation means and/or ignored examples entirely. There is nothing wrong with saying "you know what, you guys are right".
Click to expand...

You're still dodging my counterexamples.

The panels from Action Comics #1 were misleading and disingenuous. You haven't admitted that.

The scene from Superman II in the bar doesn't have Superman intentional hurt someone or destroy their livelihood. They hurt themselves and he only embarrasses the guy.

Richard Donner's cut of Superman II has Zod alive. The version I saw as a child had Zod getting arrested (I'm not from the US; Europe got a different ending). The only version where Zod possibly dies (which is implied but not confirmed) was by a director who was brought on board after Donner was fired and who put in a LOT of scenes that didn't fit the character or tone of the other scenes or previous movie.

You want a Superman that's a violent, killing psychopath? I'm actually all for it.
original.png


Great story. Best DC comic series in ages. Really does a good job showing what Superman would be like if he eventually did start letting go of his morals, one by one.
 
E

Error

Jealous of the Glory that is Johnny Depp
Dahbomb said:
Yeah DC doesn't know what they want to do with Wonder Woman, hell they just put out ANOTHER origin story for her.

The good thing about WW and Aquaman is that there's no general public nostalgia attached to those characters. No one is going to be like "oh man they didn't get WW character's like in that TV show decades ago".
Click to expand...

Honestly, even if I'm the only one, I like WW Greek origin more than the clay thing and Aquaman, well to me GJ run is probably one best, if not the best, interpretation of the character.

Sometimes new interpretations are good.
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Error said:
that's probably why the Elseworlds stories are some of the best from DC comics, writers don't have to bother with continuity in those, and are able tell a single unified narrative with a beginning and an ending.
Click to expand...

Its the oddest thing that so many of the "greatest" Superman stories that don't happen in his actual in-continuity books. Like he doesn't have a definitive ongoing run of the past 50 years people can point to and say, "read that, this is what this superhero(es) is all about", like Frank Miller's Daredevil, Claremont's X-Men, Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four, Lee/Ditko/Romita Spider-Man, Geoff Johns Green Lantern, Alan Moore Swamp Thing, Simonson Thor, Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans, Peter David's Hulk, Busiek/Perez Avengers, Mark Waid's Flash, Leviz/Giffen's Legion of Superheroes, Ostrander's Suicide Squad, Grant/Breyfogle Batman, Brubaker/Fraction/Aja Iron Fist or Hawkeye, Joe Kelly Deadpool, Jack Cole Plastic Man, etc. Like isn't that like...really fuckin' bizarre???? cuz he's the best Superhero of them all!?!?

its always the one-off stories. "go read All-Star Superman" "The Man Who Has Everything" "Whatever Happened to..." "Red Son". Then they ask for Wonder Woman recs and you just kinda give them a blank stare. "I...kinda liked the issues of Azz's WW when Cliff Chiang drew it? kinda"
 
B

Bronx-Man

Banned
Bobby Roberts said:
I also love that when it was PG-13, it was bullshit to constrain the action sequences and deny us the Batman we've yearned for all these years.

But now that the extended cut is R, it's suddenly a Superman movie again, and is proof nobody understands anything about Superman, a character people know isn't a Jesus figure, but whom they also treat with more pious reverence than most theists actually show towards the actual Jesus.
Click to expand...
To be fair, there's nothing I've ever seen from Zack Snyder that's made me think "This guy gets Superman". Similar to how at no point of watching Watchmen did I think "This guy gets Watchmen."
 
K

KuwabaraTheMan

Banned
Bobby Roberts said:
I also love that when it was PG-13, it was bullshit to constrain the action sequences and deny us the Batman we've yearned for all these years.

But now that the extended cut is R, it's suddenly a Superman movie again, and is proof nobody understands anything about Superman, a character people know isn't a Jesus figure, but whom they also treat with more pious reverence than most theists actually show towards the actual Jesus.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, I love that GAF hivemind.

Kind of crazy how the exact same people who wanted the movie to be R-rated to see Batman be more violent are also the ones who think that Snyder has already shown that he doesn't understand Superman's character at all.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Error said:
Honestly, even if I'm the only one, I like WW Greek origin more than the clay thing and Aquaman, well to me GJ run is probably one best, if not the best, interpretation of the character.

Sometimes new interpretations are good.
Click to expand...
I am saying those are COMIC BOOK runs that aren't in the mind of the general public.

Unlike Batman/Superman which had movies/tv series dedicated to them before... Aquaman/WW haven't had much exposure outside of animated series and comics.

So there's no general public nostalgia attached to these characters. For most people Aquaman just seems like a parody super hero.
 
S

Shamrock7r

Member
Garlador said:
You're still dodging my counterexamples.

The panels from Action Comics #1 were misleading and disingenuous. You haven't admitted that.

The scene from Superman II in the bar doesn't have Superman intentional hurt someone or destroy their livelihood. They hurt themselves and he only embarrasses the guy.

Richard Donner's cut of Superman II has Zod alive. The version I saw as a child had Zod getting arrested (I'm not from the US; Europe got a different ending). The only version where Zod possibly dies (which is implied but not confirmed) was by a director who was brought on board after Donner was fired and who put in a LOT of scenes that didn't fit the character or tone of the other scenes or previous movie.

You want a Superman that's a violent, killing psychopath? I'm actually all for it.
original.png


Great story. Best DC comic series in ages. Really does a good job showing what Superman would be like if he eventually did start letting go of his morals, one by one.
Click to expand...

You have no counterexamples. Going to end the convo with you because you clearly are too invested in your opinion to see/talk about things rationally.
 
G

Garlador

Member
Shamrock7r said:
So there's no general public nostalgia attached to these characters. For most people Aquaman just seems like a parody super hero.
Click to expand...

I really, REALLY wish we could have gotten an Aquaman based off Geoff Johns New 52 version. It's practically one of only two or three characters that emerged from the reboot stronger than ever.

Aquaman+and+mera.jpg
Click to expand...

It certainly made me a believer.

Shamrock7r said:
You have no counterexamples. Going to end the convo with you because you clearly are too invested in your opinion to see/talk about things rationally.
Click to expand...
Sure, when you ignore all the counterexamples and explanations, it's amazing how I have no counterexamples or explanations. How bizarre.
 
D

duckroll

Member
Bronx-Man said:
To be fair, there's nothing I've ever seen from Zack Snyder that's made me think "This guy gets Superman". Similar to how at no point of watching Watchmen did I think "This guy gets Watchmen."
Click to expand...

But you can watch anything Snyder has made and automatically go "This guy gets the 14-22 demographic wearing piercings and leather jackets."
 
E

Error

Jealous of the Glory that is Johnny Depp
Garlador said:
I really, REALLY wish we could have gotten an Aquaman based off Geoff Johns New 52 version. It's practically one of only two or three characters that emerged from the reboot stronger than ever.



It certainly made me a believer.
Click to expand...

James Wan needs to do the whole The Trench arc, it could be visually amazing. The last time we got a movie set in the abyssal zone of the sea was James Cameron's The Abyss, The fucking Abyss. Too long, bro, too long.

Something like this in live-action

3720196-aquaman+04+rizz3n-zone+pg07-08.jpg
Click to expand...

hnnnnngggggg
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
Bronx-Man said:
To be fair, there's nothing I've ever seen from Zack Snyder that's made me think "This guy gets Superman". Similar to how at no point of watching Watchmen did I think "This guy gets Watchmen."
Click to expand...

I think he got Watchmen. That was a much more detail/tonally faithful adaptation than anyone actually expected, not just from Snyder, but from anyone, period.

But I don't think he's that big a fan of Superman. He's a fan of Superman's powerset, and the power fantasy aspects, but I don't think he really has a good handle on the everything else. Superman is one of those examples of power fantasy that isn't necessarily about the power.

When people who only like him because he can shoot lasers out of his eyes are in charge of trying to humanize him, you run into problems, because that version of "humanizing" basically means "make him indecisive and untrustworthy," so when he makes a decision and cuts loose, you get the rush. Because that's all you're looking to do, is have him cut loose.

That's not how you humanize Superman, though. And it's not a mistake unique to Snyder at all.
 
K

KuwabaraTheMan

Banned
Garlador said:
I really, REALLY wish we could have gotten an Aquaman based off Geoff Johns New 52 version. It's practically one of only two or three characters that emerged from the reboot stronger than ever.



It certainly made me a believer.
Click to expand...

I'm rather partial to the Peter David run, but Johns had an amazing run, too. He did a great job of bringing Aquaman back into the limelight after years of being considered a joke by people.
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
Also, remember when the highest-earning R-Rated movie of all time had JESUS in it?

Not space-jammies Jesus, either. Actual Jesus.

edit: cue. queue means to get in a line.
 
D

duckroll

Member
Not just any Jesus either. But the Jesus who was struggling with self-doubt while being persecuted by the people He came to save, people who doubted him and rejected him. :O
 
G

generic_username

I switched to an alt account to ditch my embarrassing tag so I could be an embarrassing Naughty Dog fanboy in peace. Ask me anything!
karasu

karasu

Member
Garlador said:
Right here.

Show me where he ruins that man's livelihood or causes permanent physical or financial harm to him.

He embarrasses him. That's different than destroying his life.

Edit: And that car being smashed belong to criminals who were trying to murder and kidnap people. Not just some bully. Geez.
Click to expand...

There was a point where Superman was randomly attacking cars because a friend of his was killed in an accident. First he took over a radio station and announced his war on wreckless driving(I mean physically okay. he broke walls and manhandled people in the process), then he destroyed randomly impounded cars, then he got more specific and went after the buildings of auto manufacturers(with the people still in them!), he intimidated cops on the take, and then he kidnapped the Mayor of the city because he felt that his policies and inaction were directly responsible for an increase in auto related deaths.

dWchMhH.jpg
Click to expand...

ofEGuvl.jpg


YvM7L2F.jpg
Click to expand...



This was back in 1939 for pete's sakes. Well before Richard Donner ruined the character. Siegel and Shuster were never writing a story about a bland overly holy boy scout who ended each evening with cookies and milk. Superman was aggressive, violent, and an enforcer of social change. He debuted in "Action" Comics for a reason.
 
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