Support NeoGAF

[Poodlestrike]

Which was an aspect of the character that was explored before Burton ever made the Batman film. That's my point. Like you said, there have been 75 years of these characters existing. Most of the good ideas are already explored somewhere in the source material. Making Galactus a cloud or having Batman hand over his legacy to someone he barely knows aren't great new takes on the characters. They're just shitty ideas.

Know what hasn't been explored (Or shit, maybe has and has been forgotten by time and ignored by everyone involved because no one thought it was a good idea?) Something like Superman letting his adoptive father die just to keep a secret identity. That's not some great new angle for Superman to take. It's just a dumb idea that doesn't make the character any more interesting than the dozens, if not hundreds of interesting angles Superman has already been seen at in the source material.

If Burton Batman is an extension of the ideas in the comics, then so are the other two. Galactus as a force of nature rather than a personality and Batman as a mantle rather than a person. Boom.

Superman unsure of himself, not yet the man he will become... it's kinda compelling.

Again, I'm not saying that all new things are good, or that even the good things are well executed. Just that discarding the idea of it being good out of hand is dumb.

 

[broncobuster]

In a Hollywood film. Stop being a jackass.

Superman has been done justice in countless other mediums, even recent ones.

Justice League's cartoon was excellent at doing this, being mature and nuanced without sacrificing the essence of the character or stepping too far.

Superman literally punches Darkseid through seven buildings in a populated city after saying that.

 

[Garlador]

I still think that Superman: The Animated Series is the single best comic book adaptation into another medium ever. Nothing has ever more perfectly captured the essence of Superman than that show.

Agreed. They nailed it.

They also nailed Batman. Really, that whole run was legendary.

 

[Dahbomb]

In a Hollywood film. Stop being a jackass.

Superman has been done justice in countless other mediums, even recent ones.

Justice League's cartoon was excellent at doing this, being mature and nuanced without sacrificing the essence of the character or stepping too far.

That's the worst quote to bring up when that whole sequence played out like the end of Man of Steel, complete with Superman punching a powerful foe through multiple buildings and then getting into a brawl.

Though Superman animated series is cool. BTAS is still superior though, Superman just can't catch a break.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I'm not sure which idea is LESS compelling, "mopey Superman unsure of his place in the world" or "people don't trust Superman"

like can't he just wrestle a fuckin genie and do cool Superman: the Animated Series stuff

 

[Ahasverus]

I would personally have no problem with a kid reading those. I'd also have no problem with a kid watching the Godfather.

I do have a problem with a mainstream Batman story being specifically rated as not acceptable for kids. It's about the spirit of Batman more than anything else.

I can bet my house on the fact that nothing in the BvS director's cut will get near this

I think we might be jumping to conclusions veeery early, I mean, we haven't even seen the normal cut.

 

[wesleyshark]

Between this and the R-rated The Killing Joke, we're finally getting the correct version of what a Batman film should be.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Remember at the end of Batman Begins Commissionor Gordon says to Batman, "I never said thank you." And then Batman replies:

"And you'll never have to."

That was a great little character moment that perfectly encapsulated Batman.

 

[MisterHero]

No, he's like Captain America. He's what America should BE, not what it IS. He's the ideal for the nation to follow, not a mindless follower who agrees with what the government does.

There's a reason he renounced his American citizenship once because he disagreed with the US government's actions.

The US government and his father-in-law fucking blew up New Krypton. Even Superman would be ultra-pissed and resentful about that.

The citizenship thing was just stupid though.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Warner Bros & DC Comics present: Krypto the Superdog, The Unrated Final Cut

 

[Poodlestrike]

I'm not sure which idea is LESS compelling, "mopey Superman unsure of his place in the world" or "people don't trust Superman"

like can't he just wrestle a fuckin genie and do cool Superman: the Animated Series stuff

What can I say, I like my heroes to earn their status.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Remember at the end of Batman Begins Commissionor Gordon says to Batman, "I never said thank you." And then Batman replies:

"And you'll never have to."

That was a great little character moment that perfectly encapsulated Batman.

Yeah, that was a great moment. One of my favorite final scenes of all time. It perfectly captured the spirit of Batman in two lines.

 

[MisterHero]

Warner Bros & DC Comics present: Krypto the Superdog, The Unrated Final Cut

"I have morals Luthor. I won't kill you."

*Krypto disembowels Luthor*

"Good dog."

 

[Dahbomb]

I'm not sure which idea is LESS compelling, "mopey Superman unsure of his place in the world" or "people don't trust Superman"

like can't he just wrestle a fuckin genie and do cool Superman: the Animated Series stuff

Mopey Superman unsure of himself is far less compelling than people don't trusting Superman, at least initially.

Even with how unbelievable Superman is as a character, it's a big leap in logic for the general public to trust Superman in MoS after those events. At least there is dissenting opinions on Superman on the matter which I like, it's not all one way.

At least Superman got a cool statue and the Daily Planet writes puff piece editorials about him saving stuff! I do hope that BvS ends with Superman doing some heroic stuff and people respecting him more... though with the way Zack Snyder is going they will probably end up "killing" Superman to make the general public respect him or something.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Warner Bros & DC Comics present: Krypto the Superdog, The Unrated Final Cut

Which reminds me that we still need the unrated cut of Homeward Bound.

 

[Magwik]

The thing with Superman is that we already got the boyscout movie everyone wanted. It's called Superman Returns and it was panned hard. Returns was so bad that Man of Steel is literally the anti-thesis to that movie. It took Superman in the complete opposite direction, and guess what, it made money.
(I liked Superman Returns and Man of Steel. Fight me.)

 

[Platy]

I disagree. Green Lantern is. Especially if they take inspiration from Geoff Johns' run. Their internal 13+ rating for their comic artwork would be a very hard R if adapted 1:1 in film.

Considering it is full of people with a ridiculously overpower weapon fighting each other, Green Lantern is MUCH more kid friendly than it should =P

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

I'm not sure which idea is LESS compelling, "mopey Superman unsure of his place in the world" or "people don't trust Superman"

like can't he just wrestle a fuckin genie and do cool Superman: the Animated Series stuff

And hell, Superman; The Animated Series already did the whole "people don't trust Superman" thing better.

That series finale was amazing. And it managed to do the whole idea of the world losing faith in Superman without it being some sort of grim dark thing. "One person at a time" was such a beautiful line to end that story on.

 

[generic_username]

This scene is for sure happening in the movie. Cant freaking wait for all the criticism lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n1DGFpWRKc

 

[Dahbomb]

The thing with Superman is that we already got the boyscout movie everyone wanted. It's called Superman Returns and it was a financial disaster. Returns bombed so bad that Man of Steel is literally the anti-thesis to that movie. It took Superman in the complete opposite direction, and guess what, it made money.
(I liked Superman Returns and Man of Steel. Fight me.)

Man was Superman Returns awful...

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Mopey Superman unsure of himself is far less compelling than people don't trusting Superman, at least initially.

Even with how unbelievable Superman is as a character, it's a big leap in logic for the general public to trust Superman in MoS after those events. At least there is dissenting opinions on Superman on the matter which I like, it's not all one way.

At least Superman got a cool statue and the Daily Planet writes puff piece editorials about him saving stuff!

Yeah, I hate that shit. "Well, he wasn't REALLY Superman yet." Now he's still not REALLY Superman, we got wait for the fuckin' Justice League movie where he has to share screen time with Aquaman and Green Lantern.

 

[Garlador]

Superman literally punches Darkseid through seven buildings in a populated city after saying that.

Good thing he had an entire team there. He also made it very clear he wasn't going to let anyone get hurt due to his actions.

I rewatch that episode almost more than any other JL episode.

That's the worst quote to bring up when that whole sequence played out like the end of Man of Steel, complete with Superman punching a powerful foe through multiple buildings and then getting into a brawl.

Though Superman animated series is cool. BTAS is still superior though, Superman just can't catch a break.

Superman cuts loose only when he knows he can, when there's no risk and he knows his actions won't hurt others.

The point is that he holds all that strength in. He doesn't misuse he. He doesn't lash out for personal reason and hurt someone else or ruin their life by misusing his abilities, and that's hard for him. But the point is he does it; he keeps in check. He doesn't lose control.

The thing with Superman is that we already got the boyscout movie everyone wanted. It's called Superman Returns and it was a financial disaster. Returns bombed so bad that Man of Steel is literally the anti-thesis to that movie. It took Superman in the complete opposite direction, and guess what, it made money.
(I liked Superman Returns and Man of Steel. Fight me.)

That was an awful Superman too.

Deadbeat absentee dad Superman who stalks his ex and spies on her without her knowing.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It's called Superman Returns and it was a financial disaster. Returns bombed so bad that Man of Steel is literally the anti-thesis to that movie.

Returns was neither a bomb or a financial disaster. It was a disappointment, yeah.

 

[Shamrock7r]

And hell, Superman; The Animated Series already did the whole "people don't trust Superman" thing better.

That series finale was amazing. And it managed to do the whole idea of the world losing faith in Superman without it being some sort of grim dark thing. "One person at a time" was such a beautiful line to end that story on.

They got over it pretty damn quickly as he convinced the world to disarm all their nukes in the first episode of Justice League, lol.

 

[Effect]

This scene is for sure happening in the movie. Cant freaking wait for all the criticism lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n1DGFpWRKc

People are forgetting Doomsday is in this film. Extra scenes with him could easily up the rating if they do him right.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Superman cuts loose only when he knows he can, when there's no risk and he knows his actions won't hurt others.

The point is that he holds all that strength in. He doesn't misuse he. He doesn't lash out for personal reason and hurt someone else or ruin their life by misusing his abilities, and that's hard for him. But the point is he does it; he keeps in check. He doesn't lose control.

https://youtu.be/1nu3CLQm-SI?t=29s

 

[Zen_Arcade]

If Burton Batman is an extension of the ideas in the comics, then so are the other two. Galactus as a force of nature rather than a personality and Batman as a mantle rather than a person. Boom.

Superman unsure of himself, not yet the man he will become... it's kinda compelling.

Again, I'm not saying that all new things are good, or that even the good things are well executed. Just that discarding the idea of it being good out of hand is dumb.

I never said that Superman being unsure of himself was a bad thing. I don't even think that him killing Zod was a bad idea. But there are some choices in that film like the one I mentioned that are just dumb ideas that don't make that Superman more interesting.

Galactus as a force of nature isn't a very good description. It takes away one of his greatest and interesting traits, which is essentially him being a God. And not only a God, a God that constantly has to wrestle with the fact that he has to destroy just to live. Having him be a ball of space gas is a terrible idea that didn't make a more interesting Galactus, or drive his character forward in any way. It was just a reduction that made his (Botched) concept easier to swallow for a general audience. And I hope that if a good Fantastic Four movie ever gets made, and it involves Galactus, the people making it would try and give the character more depth.

Batman as a mantle isn't a terrible idea, but having him trust what is basically a stranger with his legacy was poorly written and not earned. Especially in a series of movies where the previous one opens up with Batman telling a bunch of people trying to emulate him that it isn't a job for just anyone. Then he proceeds to hand that responsibility over to someone with barely any training.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

They got over it pretty damn quickly as he convinced the world to disarm all their nukes in the first episode of Justice League, lol.

I've always imagined that several years passed between Legacy and the start of Justice League.

And I can believe in Superman regaining people's trust because he appeals to the fundamental good in people. After a little time has passed, they'll want to let him back into their hearts.

 

[Magwik]

Returns was neither a bomb or a financial disaster. It was a disappointment, yeah.

Man I thought the movie didn't do wll at the BO for like the past 2 years. Oops. Gotta edit my post now.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

And hell, Superman; The Animated Series already did the whole "people don't trust Superman" thing better.

That series finale was amazing. And it managed to do the whole idea of the world losing faith in Superman without it being some sort of grim dark thing. "One person at a time" was such a beautiful line to end that story on.

Remember that time Superman just covered Darkseid's eyes so he accidently took himself out instead of snapping his neck.

That was cool.

That was a good Superman adaptation, DCAU. The comic I posted earlier was from the same universe.

 

[NumberTwo]

Superman and Wonder Woman have no business being R-rated.

I know I'm late but:

WW is about that life.

 

[Garlador]

https://youtu.be/1nu3CLQm-SI?t=29s

The guy punched superman and hurt his own hand - and he has him slide over the bar to sit on a pinball machine. Then he more than pays for the damage.
If this scene was anything like Man of Steel, Clark would have went outside and in a rage complete destroy his hundred thousand dollar semi and ruin his livelihood.

 

[DaveH]

I find it funny that you quote the title of that story which clearly had some very violent imagery that would be close to r-rated in a movie.

The guy is out of his gourd... trying to pitch sainted Superman using many of his most brutal and unrestrained moments. Superman literally kills Darkseid in Justice League by Darkseid's own admission. In "What's So Funny" the entire point is showing what an unhinged Superman could be like; it hardly abstains from that possibility for the sake of the children. Justice League Superman literally levels a [uninhabited] city clashing with Captain Marvel, puts Captain Atom in a coma, and is not some shining model to live your life by. He's a character, with all the flaws and foibles you expect from proper writing... but this guy is pushing some creepy religious version that suddenly can't and doesn't work if any of that character actually enter the dimension of something real. Ridiculous.

The overwhelming number of Best Picture winners in the last 30 years have been rated R and it would be absurd to claim that for daring to have such a rating none of those films were inspirational or uplifting.

It's just an embarrassingly intellectually bankrupt argument to claim a fictional character can't come across just because of an MPAA raiting. Absolute nonsense.

 

[Shamrock7r]

The guy punched superman and hurt his own hand - and he has him slide over the bar to sit on a pinball machine. Then he more than pays for the damage.
If this scene was anything like Man of Steel, Clark would have went outside and in a rage complete destroy his hundred thousand dollar semi and ruin his livelihood.

Why was he at that Diner again? hmmmmmm?

I'm kind of convinced you are a joke poster now

 

[Garlador]

It's just an embarrassingly intellectually bankrupt argument to claim a fictional character can't come across just because of an MPAA raiting. Absolute nonsense.

Take it away, Malcolm!

 

[Dahbomb]

Yeah, I hate that shit. "Well, he wasn't REALLY Superman yet." Now he's still not REALLY Superman, we got wait for the fuckin' Justice League movie where he has to share screen time with Aquaman and Green Lantern.

Well at least he's saving people/stuff in BvS.

But even in the trailer you can tell he is unsure. He still has to ask Lois Lane and Martha Kent for advice on how to be a hero. At least it's better than him asking a Preacher for advice...

 

[sammich]

Good thing he had an entire team there. He also made it very clear he wasn't going to let anyone get hurt due to his actions.

I rewatch that episode almost more than any other JL episode.


Superman cuts loose only when he knows he can, when there's no risk and he knows his actions won't hurt others.

The point is that he holds all that strength in. He doesn't misuse he. He doesn't lash out for personal reason and hurt someone else or ruin their life by misusing his abilities, and that's hard for him. But the point is he does it; he keeps in check. He doesn't lose control.



That was an awful Superman too.

Deadbeat absentee dad Superman who stalks his ex and spies on her without her knowing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDVGuZ45OrQ

 

[Magwik]

Well at least he's saving people/stuff in BvS.




But even in the trailer you can tell he is unsure. He still has to ask Lois Lane and Martha Kent for advice on how to be a hero. At least it's better than him asking a Preacher for advice...

Honestly him asking his mom for advice on what to do and how to do the right thing isn't a a negative for me. It puts Supes in a more human position for that moment (or should at least). Just like everyone else, he goes to his mom for advice.

 

[inm8num2]

Awesome news - this movie is so close! Will be fun to check out the DC on BD to see where Snyder let himself have a little more fun.

edit - what the fuck is happening in this thread...

 

[DaveH]

Why was he at that Diner again? hmmmmmm?

The guy is divorced from reality. You're not going to get through to him. Superman was clearly a saint when he killed in the Golden Age, cheated in sports, and brutalized elected officials. Superman was a model citizen when perpetually lying to Lois, pranking obnoxiously, and extremely petty and jealous. Superman was "pure" in the modern era and beyond, when basically none of those comics were written for kids anymore.

So, when Clark actually wants petty revenge, this guy isn't going to see it... and when the trucker in Man of Steel files an insurance claim that's completely straight forwards since there's no way he could have caused the damage himself- intentionally or otherwise... that guy is going to be willfully blind.

The fact that the medium has matured and evolved is going to be ignored by him. He's pining for a past that never existed.

 

[Error]

This is why Bats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Superman

We can have campy Batman, dark and brooding Bats, Old and jaded Batman (TDKR) and no one gives a shit. As soon as someone deviates a bit from the Donner archetype of Superman "that's not muh Superman!"

It's the reason why Superman Returns flopped, it's the reason why MoS is divisive. Do people really expect for a big studio to make a Superman movie in which he doesn't fight anything and just saves people and inspires hope? 2 hours, of just that... Even the DCAU threw punches and wrecked shit when he needed, DCAU also presented a Superman that killed remember the Justice Lords arc? In fact Superman killing and going rogue was the WHOLE point of the Cadmus arc in the JL animated series, why do people act like trust issues with Superman and the public is something new?

 

[What did he mean by this?]

The extended Hobbit movie should have been rated NC-17. A truly disturbing yet mindnumbing experience

 

[BadAss2961]

Superman cuts loose only when he knows he can, when there's no risk and he knows his actions won't hurt others.

The point is that he holds all that strength in. He doesn't misuse he. He doesn't lash out for personal reason and hurt someone else or ruin their life by misusing his abilities, and that's hard for him. But the point is he does it; he keeps in check. He doesn't lose control.

Action Comics #1

 

[generic_username]

Well at least he's saving people/stuff in BvS.




But even in the trailer you can tell he is unsure. He still has to ask Lois Lane and Martha Kent for advice on how to be a hero. At least it's better than him asking a Preacher for advice...

He is probably asking her whether he should just forget about being a hero and have superman go into hiding because even when he is saving people there are probably a bunch of powerful critics in the movie propped up by Lex who are building a narrative that he is dangerous. I dont see anything wrong in it at all if that is the case.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

They show all the crushed bodies of the people Superman killed near the end of MoS

 

[Bleepey]

Wonder Woman: "I never knew bats were so............endowed......"

Batman: "And did you know bats are growers not showers?"

Wonder Woman: O_O;


Hollywood, call me.

Bat:Hey baby, do you wanna see my Dark Knight Rise?
Bat: Hey baby, i hear you're into bondage and shit.

 

[Mighty Chin]

I mean, obviously the story is very different, but it's clearly heavily inspired by the original Days of Future Past, and it's broadly in line with what the X-Men are. I'd say it's closer to the comics than almost any Marvel Studios movie is.

Following the essence of the Characters is what Marvel is good at.

 

[Discotheque]

Returns was neither a bomb or a financial disaster. It was a disappointment, yeah.

i think a sequel to returns would have been pretty successful tbh. not to the extent of a bump from batman begins to tdk but still if they took some time to promote it the film would have been fine.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Action Comics #1

Garlador ain't coming back after this post, lol

 

[The Adder]

So I recently watched MoS again, my girlfriend's first time.

Gotta say, having watched it with her, there was no better way to end that fight than having Clark kill Zod.

Why?

Because as the fight is winding down, before Zod starts threatening the family, but after he'd clearly won, my gf was sitting there just demanding he kill Zod.

And then he did. And she went pale and silent. She was as horrified at it as Clark was. She FELT for him. And she understood something that months of my debating with her about this very subject had failed to really convince her of.

She understood why Superman doesn't kill.

Had the fight ended any other way she'd still be saying that it was stupid he didn't kill Zod.

I didn't see that when I saw it on my own. But that moment was almost profound.

Snyder knows what he's doing.