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[MisterHero]

This was back in 1939 for pete's sakes. Well before Richard Donner ruined the character. Siegel and Shuster were never writing a story about a bland overly holy boy scout who ended each evening with cookies and milk. Superman was aggressive, violent, and an enforcer of social change. He debuted in "Action" Comics for a reason.

That had to change though. In 1939, there was a tangible evil that threatened the entire world. It was easier to have those kinds of heroes.

Supes could fight in WWII, but Vietnam, Afghanistan/Iraq, etc. are more open to ambiguous attitudes. Tthey sidestepped those issues by making him a general do-gooder.

Also, remember when the highest-earning R-Rated movie of all time had JESUS in it?

Not space-jammies Jesus, either. Actual Jesus.

edit: cue. queue means to get in a line.

I remember when I wanted Jim Caviezel to play Superman

Imagine an actor playing both Jesus and Superman

 

[Liquidsnake]

This time, they show all the mangled corpses of Superman's victims.

Lol

 

[TetraxShards]

My favourite old Action Comics story is the one where Superman gathered all the mob bosses in Metropolis to one place, and gave them all one playing card. He said something like "I'll kill the man with the ace of spades!", but all the cards were the ace of spades.

 

[The Adder]

To be fair, there's nothing I've ever seen from Zack Snyder that's made me think "This guy gets Superman".

I think he got Watchmen. That was a much more detail/tonally faithful adaptation than anyone actually expected, not just from Snyder, but from anyone, period.

But I don't think he's that big a fan of Superman. He's a fan of Superman's powerset, and the power fantasy aspects, but I don't think he really has a good handle on the everything else. Superman is one of those examples of power fantasy that isn't necessarily about the power.

When people who only like him because he can shoot lasers out of his eyes are in charge of trying to humanize him, you run into problems, because that version of "humanizing" basically means "make him indecisive and untrustworthy," so when he makes a decision and cuts loose, you get the rush. Because that's all you're looking to do, is have him cut loose.

That's not how you humanize Superman, though. And it's not a mistake unique to Snyder at all.

See my above post.

 

[karasu]

That had to change though. In 1939, there was a tangible evil that threatened the entire world. It was easier to have those kinds of heroes.

Supes could fight in WWII, but Vietnam, Afghanistan/Iraq, etc. are more open to ambiguous attitudes. Tthey sidestepped those issues by making him a general do-gooder.

It changed for a lot of reasons sure. But one of the biggest was the way the comic book industry caved in to the demands of censors in the fifties.

 

[The Adder]

This was back in 1939 for pete's sakes. Well before Richard Donner ruined the character. Siegel and Shuster were never writing a story about a bland overly holy boy scout who ended each evening with cookies and milk. Superman was aggressive, violent, and an enforcer of social change. He debuted in "Action" Comics for a reason.

There's a reason I love Morrison's Action Comics. Perfect way to explain and transition 30s Clark into the modern one. Only wish we got more of "I don't know the meaning of the word subtlety yet" 20-something Clark.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

My favourite old Action Comics story is the one where Superman gathered all the mob bosses in Metropolis to one place, and gave them all one playing card. He said something like "I'll kill the man with the ace of spades!", but all the cards were the ace of spades.

So, did he kill them all?

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Not just any Jesus either. But the Jesus who was struggling with self-doubt while being persecuted by the people He came to save, people who doubted him and rejected him. :O

Last temptation is way better at that then Passion

 

[Bobby Roberts]

See my above post.

What above post?

I had to go a couple pages back to find one - you talking about the one where your girlfriend got what they were going for with Clark snapping Zod's neck?

I got what they were going for too. I didn't even necessarily dislike it. But the execution (pun intended) left more than a little to be desired, which is part of what I was getting at. I think when you key in too strongly to the power fantasy aspect of Superman (which seems like... duh, he's SUPERMAN) you tend to more thinly characterize him. People responded so strongly to Reeve because him being able to do amazing shit is almost secondary to him just being a cool guy you wanna be friends with. I think missing that aspect almost entirely is what happened with Goyer/Snyder, and it remains to be seen whether Terrio/Affleck/Snyder (and I think Affleck has some significant creative input here, whether or not he's credited in that way) will make that same mistake.

There are lots of things that could have/should have worked in Man of Steel that didn't because they never quite nailed the characterization, and they didn't nail the moments they needed to as cleanly as they had to be. Well, that and the pacing.

It wasn't a bad movie. It wasn't very good, either. I understood and sometimes even enjoyed the angle they took on the character, and think it's a valid one. I just didn't think it landed the way it could have/should have. Good choices turned wobbly in practice.

Last temptation is way better at that then Passion

ALSO R-RATED.

 

[MartyStu]

What above post?

I had to go a couple pages back to find one - you talking about the one where your girlfriend got what they were going for with Clark snapping Zod's neck?

I got what they were going for too. I didn't even necessarily dislike it. But the execution (pun intended) left more than a little to be desired, which is part of what I was getting at. I think when you key in too strongly to the power fantasy aspect of Superman (which seems like... duh, he's SUPERMAN) you tend to more thinly characterize him. People responded so strongly to Reeve because him being able to do amazing shit is almost secondary to him just being a cool guy you wanna be friends with. I think missing that aspect almost entirely is what happened with Goyer/Snyder, and it remains to be seen whether Terrio/Affleck/Snyder (and I think Affleck has some significant creative input here, whether or not he's credited in that way) will make that same mistake.

There are lots of things that could have/should have worked in Man of Steel that didn't because they never quite nailed the characterization of the character, and they didn't nail the moments they needed to as cleanly as they had to be. Well, that and the pacing.

It wasn't a bad movie. It wasn't very good, either. I understood and sometimes even enjoyed the angle they took on the character, and think it's a valid one. I just didn't think it landed the way it could have/should have. Good choices turned wobbly in practice.



ALSO R-RATED.

I agree with this.

MoS seemed much more preoccupied with building 'Superman the myth' and not 'Superman the man.'

And I do not even begrudge it this. Just wish it was done better.

 

[KingBroly]

I agree with this.

MoS seemed much more preoccupied with building 'Superman the myth' and not 'Superman the man.'

And I do not even begrudge it this, I just think that to take that approach, they should have kept the PoV completely away from him.

Man of Steel is literally the Saiyan Saga from DBZ

 

[inm8num2]

I hope the Lego Batman movie also gets an R-rated cut.

 

[Dahbomb]

Man of Steel is literally the Saiyan Saga from DBZ

Man even in DBZ they know to take the fight away from civilians...

Ok I kid.

 

[flaxknuckles]

I hope the Lego Batman movie also gets an R-rated cut.

I honestly do. They should make a LEGO Zombie movie so I can see brick blood fly!

 

[Killing_Joke]

I'm cringing at everyone bringing up Deadpool. WB wants 1B+ not 500M+.

It probably won't even be a hard R. Few F bombs and blood. Awesome news anyway, Snyder has a good track record with extended editions.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

What above post?

I had to go a couple pages back to find one - you talking about the one where your girlfriend got what they were going for with Clark snapping Zod's neck?

I got what they were going for too. I didn't even necessarily dislike it. But the execution (pun intended) left more than a little to be desired, which is part of what I was getting at. I think when you key in too strongly to the power fantasy aspect of Superman (which seems like... duh, he's SUPERMAN) you tend to more thinly characterize him. People responded so strongly to Reeve because him being able to do amazing shit is almost secondary to him just being a cool guy you wanna be friends with. I think missing that aspect almost entirely is what happened with Goyer/Snyder, and it remains to be seen whether Terrio/Affleck/Snyder (and I think Affleck has some significant creative input here, whether or not he's credited in that way) will make that same mistake.

There are lots of things that could have/should have worked in Man of Steel that didn't because they never quite nailed the characterization, and they didn't nail the moments they needed to as cleanly as they had to be. Well, that and the pacing.

It wasn't a bad movie. It wasn't very good, either. I understood and sometimes even enjoyed the angle they took on the character, and think it's a valid one. I just didn't think it landed the way it could have/should have. Good choices turned wobbly in practice.



ALSO R-RATED.

Thank you. This sums up the film in a way I couldn't quite put into words.

 

[Vyer]

What above post?

I had to go a couple pages back to find one - you talking about the one where your girlfriend got what they were going for with Clark snapping Zod's neck?

I got what they were going for too. I didn't even necessarily dislike it. But the execution (pun intended) left more than a little to be desired, which is part of what I was getting at. I think when you key in too strongly to the power fantasy aspect of Superman (which seems like... duh, he's SUPERMAN) you tend to more thinly characterize him. People responded so strongly to Reeve because him being able to do amazing shit is almost secondary to him just being a cool guy you wanna be friends with. I think missing that aspect almost entirely is what happened with Goyer/Snyder, and it remains to be seen whether Terrio/Affleck/Snyder (and I think Affleck has some significant creative input here, whether or not he's credited in that way) will make that same mistake.

There are lots of things that could have/should have worked in Man of Steel that didn't because they never quite nailed the characterization, and they didn't nail the moments they needed to as cleanly as they had to be. Well, that and the pacing.

It wasn't a bad movie. It wasn't very good, either. I understood and sometimes even enjoyed the angle they took on the character, and think it's a valid one. I just didn't think it landed the way it could have/should have. Good choices turned wobbly in practice.



ALSO R-RATED.

I think I would give Snyder a little more credit in understanding the character and put more weight on the execution you're talking about here. Like a lot of moments in the film, up to and including Zod's death, could potentially be moments that work to strengthen and humanize Snyder's supes. but unfortunately, whether it be his limitations as a director or the writing or whatever, they don't really stick and are just...flat.

You know there was a very good Superman Adventures comic written by Mark Millar of all people. ]
!

That's great, but has nothing really to do with anything I was saying, unless you're talking about the things that Death of was lacking. In which case....yeah, unfortunately.

 

[Kibbles]

What is R Rated sequences of violence vs PG13?

I wonder if it will have that scene Latino Review talked about lasted year of Joker killing Robin with a crowbar. :3

 

[Dahbomb]

What is R Rated sequences of violence vs PG13?

I wonder if it will have that scene Latino Review talked about lasted year of Joker killing Robin with a crowbar. :3

Probably the type of violence that is in something like Mad Max. Aside from a couple of scenes it really didn't feature that much gratuitous violence.

 

[BlackGoku03]

What is R Rated sequences of violence vs PG13?

I wonder if it will have that scene Latino Review talked about lasted year of Joker killing Robin with a crowbar. :3

That's what I've been thinking. This and more gruesome deaths by doomsday, maybe?

 

[karasu]

There's a reason I love Morrison's Action Comics. Perfect way to explain and transition 30s Clark into the modern one. Only wish we got more of "I don't know the meaning of the word subtlety yet" 20-something Clark.

I agree entirely.I've always liked the idea that the iconic hero is something he grew into with time and experience. I don't like when they play it like he was shat out of a spaceship onto a farm and made perfect by the Kents. But that's John Byrne's doing so whatever.

 

[Already Torn]

Kryptonite strap-on as it's the only one he can feel.

"do you bleed?"

Oh man. I'm gonna be cracking up next time I hear that line

 

[Flynn77]

MANBAT
'Do you fuckin' bleed?'

Snarky look from superman, a mixture of disgust and confusion. He flies away.

MANBAT
'Well you fucking will motherfucker!'

 

[Nizz]

Honestly, if this Ultimate Edition features both the PG-13 and R rated cuts of the movie I'm good with this. I just hope whatever added scenes do the movie justice. I tend to go by the "edition released in theaters" as the definitive version. I'm just weird like that I guess.

I loved Tropic Thunder and want to get it on Blu-ray but the only version available that I've seen is the director's cut and I heard that version isn't as good as the original version. Same thing I've heard about X-Men DoFP (granted I know it didn't change from PG13 to R). The added scenes didn't really seem to add much and actually kind of ruined the pace.

 

[a916]

I'm cringing at everyone bringing up Deadpool. WB wants 1B+ not 500M+.

It probably won't even be a hard R. Few F bombs and blood. Awesome news anyway, Snyder has a good track record with extended editions.

Yup, nailed it. More than anything WB has been really tentative with how they've done everything, they aren't going to take a risk like this anytime soon... besides the R cut is for a special edition home video release that everyone is pouting on.

Also, agree with your second point. In the Rated R window, Deadpool was very close to stepping in the NC17 point. If I had to take a logical guess, BvS is at the bottom of that Rated R window, just barely entering it.

Honestly, if this Ultimate Edition features both the PG-13 and R rated cuts of the movie I'm good with this. I just hope whatever added scenes do the movie justice. I tend to go by the "edition released in theaters" as the definitive version. I'm just weird like that I guess.

I loved Tropic Thunder and want to get it on Blu-ray but the only version available that I've seen is the director's cut and I heard that version isn't as good as the original version. Same thing I've heard about X-Men DoFP (granted I know it didn't change from PG13 to R). The added scenes didn't really seem to add much and actually kind of ruined the pace.

I used to be the same way... then I saw the LOTR Extended Edition... I'm a believer.

 

[Dead]

Snyder said a while back that it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that there would be an extended cut because they shot so much.

The R rating is surely for some of the action and violence cuts they had to make to secure the PG-13, that's it.

 

[Ashhong]

Yup, nailed it. More than anything WB has been really tentative with how they've done everything, they aren't going to take a risk like this anytime soon... besides the R cut is for a special edition home video release that everyone is pouting on.

Also, agree with your second point. In the Rated R window, Deadpool was very close to stepping in the NC17 point. If I had to take a logical guess, BvS is at the bottom of that Rated R window, just barely entering it.



I used to be the same way... then I saw the LOTR Extended Edition... I'm a believer.

Deadpool was nowhere near NC-17

 

[Noisepurge]

Deadpool was nowhere near NC-17

haha, yeah, Deadpool was 1980's level of PG13.

 

[Exodust]

And that's the only story of Superman that people remember.

That and All Star Superman.. oh wait another Superman story where he dies.

Whatever Happened to The Man Of Tomorrow?
Kingdom Come
Red Son
Last Son Of Krypton
Man Of Steel(comic)
For the Man Who Has Everything

That's all off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more, and I'm hardly the biggest fan(I do like him a lot though).

 

[Messypandas]

The last trailer was rated 15 in the UK, thats the U.S equivalent of an R

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/batman-v-superman-dawn-justice-filmtrailer-3

I wouldn't expect much more out of the R cut but i will expect the Batman fight scene to not survive as is in the theatrical

Spoiler

maybe

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Seems like James Gunn's prediction that Hollywood won't learn from Deadpool and just start giving movies R ratings for the sake of it, was correct.

Anyone expecting a hard R, with lots of blood and swearing will be disappointed, this is still Batman v Superman after all. If any DC movie needs a real R rating, it's Suicide Squad, that should have been R from the start really.

 

[Exodust]

Seems like James Gunn's prediction that Hollywood won't learn from Deadpool and just start giving movies R ratings for the sake of it, was correct.

Way to not read the thread.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Way to not read the thread.

I did, what's your point ?

Sure it looks like they might have shot some extra stuff to put in the movie but It's hardly going to have Deadpool or kickass levels of violence going on, it will likely be a very tame R rating at best.

The difference between PG-13 and an R rating can sometimes be just a few frames of footage, but even with extra footage, if you expect it to be way more violent, then you may be disappointed, this is still Batman v Superman after all.

 

[a916]

Deadpool was nowhere near NC-17

There were interviews with the cast and Tim Miller and subsequent talking with the Collider Movie crew that they skirted that line and pushed the hard R as much as they could get away with. They had to tone back for fear of the NC17 rating and had to pull back in one of the scenes because they knew it would definitely push them into NC17.

 

[Jean Valjean]

It should have been rated NC-17 for the raunchy scenes between Lois and Clark, and WW, Bats and Supes.

They said they 'team up' at the end, right? So... Eiffel Tower?

 

[Exodust]

I did, what's your point ?

An R-rating for a bluray release that was submitted to the MPAA in September hardly falls into what Gunn is talking about.

James Gunn's prediction will happen soon enough, but it's reaching when you apply it here.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I did, what's your point ?

Sure it looks like they might have shot some extra stuff to put in the movie but It's hardly going to have Deadpool or kickass levels of violence going on, it will likely be a very tame R rating at best.

The difference between PG-13 and an R rating can sometimes be just a few frames of footage, but even with extra footage, if you expect it to be way more violent, then you may be disappointed, this is still Batman v Superman after all.

His point was that you didn't read it very well. BvsS was planned and in production far too early for them to be taking any lessons from Deadpool. The movie is almost out. There is no way Deadpool had any influence on an R rated cut of this movie. If there is an R rated cut of this movie it was planned far before anyone saw the success of Deadpool.

 

[Collateral22]

So will this release at the same time as the cinema release or will it be a blu ray release?

 

[Lord Virgin]

So will this release at the same time as the cinema release or will it be a blu ray release?

Blu-ray.

 

[A.D. Skinner]

I think a lot of people are under the impression that the rating means the whole movie is grim as fuck, when it could be one scene. One vital scene that they choose to keep (as people suggested, maybe Robin getting a crowbar massage) in the film as it is very important.

Also, Batman definitely says "shit" when he (trailer edit be damned) sees Doomsday.

By the way, can anyone link the trailers where Bruce says "he brought the war" and "son of a bitch brought the war" because somehow, I can't find it!

Edit. I see someone say R is basically UK15 which is fair. Now if this movie was rated NC-17, then maybe a different story.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

Man even in DBZ they know to take the fight away from civilians...

Ok I kid.

They generally address it though.

Really excited by this news. Guaranteed buy for the blu-ray if the movie is solid. Now just give me that R-rated Red Hood standalone Batman movie DC, you know you want to ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Arnie7]

oh yesss. Brutal hardcore batman finally.

 

[Inferno313]

Snyder said a while back that it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that there would be an extended cut because they shot so much.

The R rating is surely for some of the action and violence cuts they had to make to secure the PG-13, that's it.

Yeah, we've seen that Supes gets fairly bloody during the fight, honestly the R rating could be due to something as minor as a close-up on Supes bloody face.

 

[Senoculum]

The "Hollywood learns the wrong lessons" stuff is just a running gag I'm not in on, right guys? Y'all don't really think they threw together an R-rated cut and got it rated since Deadpool released... right?

Right?

Shhh, don't reveal yourself. They'll bite.

(but seriously, did everyone forget about Watchmen, Kick Ass, and Dredd?)

 

[Messypandas]

Yeah, we've seen that Supes gets fairly bloody during the fight, honestly the R rating could be due to something as minor as a close-up on Supes bloody face.

I remember Singer talking about the advisory board during the X-Men 2 commentary. Theres a shot where Wolverine stabs a guy through the chest during the break-in and then screams. They couldn't leave Wolverines scream in uncut because it was "too intense" so they show Bobbys face while he screams. The actual stabbing part got in no problem.

The fact, the Batman fight scene from the actual trailer is not going to get into a 12A rating in the UK at least. We have proof of that, so we've already physically seen some of the cut footage.

 

[Schweinehund]

Well at least he's saving people/stuff in BvS.




But even in the trailer you can tell he is unsure. He still has to ask Lois Lane and Martha Kent for advice on how to be a hero. At least it's better than him asking a Preacher for advice...

Speculation:

Spoiler

I think he's asking her if it's right for him to either get involved with political affairs (Wars) or to intervene in other countries. It's a common plot thread in Superman comics. I'm guessing this is right before or after the senate hearing.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

His point was that you didn't read it very well. BvsS was planned and in production far too early for them to be taking any lessons from Deadpool. The movie is almost out. There is no way Deadpool had any influence on an R rated cut of this movie. If there is an R rated cut of this movie it was planned far before anyone saw the success of Deadpool.

Maybe or maybe not, but it's a very big coincidence with the timing, but if Deadpool had flopped, there's no guarantee the studio would want to spend extra money creating the R rated cut for blu-ray.

Extra footage is filmed all the time when making movies, but doesn't mean they always use it, so they could have left the footage on the cutting room floor or just put them on the disc as deleted scenes, but after the big success of the R rated Deadpool, they know the demand is there for R rated comic book so have decided to do this now.

The blu-ray / dvd is still a long way off, so they have plenty of time to make these kind of choice's.

 

[Lilalaunebaer]

Maybe or maybe not, but it's a very big coincidence with the timing, but if Deadpool had flopped, there's no guarantee the studio would want to spend extra money creating the R rated cut for blu-ray.

Extra footage is filmed all the time when making movies, but doesn't mean they always use it, so they could have left the footage on the cutting room floor or just put them on the disc as deleted scenes, but after the big success of the R rated Deadpool, they know the demand is there for R rated comic book so have decided to do this now.

The blu-ray / dvd is still a long way off, so they have plenty of time to make these kind of choice's.

The r-rated cut was rated on september 30th 2015...... Deadpool got shit to do with this.

Now if it actually gets on the Blu-Ray is a different question, but the actual cut, was rated 5 months ago.

It´s in the second post of this thread.

 

[Megadragon15]

Maybe or maybe not, but it's a very big coincidence with the timing, but if Deadpool had flopped, there's no guarantee the studio would want to spend extra money creating the R rated cut for blu-ray.

Extra footage is filmed all the time when making movies, but doesn't mean they always use it, so they could have left the footage on the cutting room floor or just put them on the disc as deleted scenes, but after the big success of the R rated Deadpool, they know the demand is there for R rated comic book so have decided to do this now.

The blu-ray / dvd is still a long way off, so they have plenty of time to make these kind of choice's.

I'm sure Warner Brothers had a time machine when they submitted that R-rated cut in September 2015. They said Deadpool will be a success in 2016.

 

[Sephzilla]

Man of Steel is literally the Saiyan Saga from DBZ

I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed this