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[dragonbane]

Speaking of Ryan, I never got the scene where Nathan supposedly threaten Ryan's life to force Jodie to do something. Ryan got separated from Jodie before her encounter with Nathan and did not see her again until Jodie managed to deal with Nathan.

You can fuck up the dialogue with Nathan. If you just go with the default responses (press nothing) or choose the wrong ones (threaten or accusing him) then he will go completely nuts and aims his gun loosely at Jodie. Time slows down and then you can decide to kill him as Aiden, if you think he really might shoot Jodie (which isn't clear). If you do nothing Ryan will appear and try to grab the gun from Nathan. In the struggle Ryan gets shot. He then grabs the gun and kills Nathan himself and they both die. Very emotional scene between Jodie and Ryan follows. Since Ryan can't help you anymore, the following fight with the entities is much longer. Also during the Life or Beyond choice Tuesday and Zoey appear in her vision instead of Ryan when you look at Life. When you look at Beyond Ryan will be there already and smiles at you. If you choose Beyond and Ryan is dead the military will find Jodie's death body. If you choose Life Jodie will run away from the explosion herself and will cry about Aiden alone without Ryan comforting her. Also the second part of the epilogue with the final choice doesn't take place in the shed, but at Ryan's grave instead. You can then choose between the endings as usual (Ryan is obviously not available anymore).

If you act as Aiden you can take Nathan out I believe and Ryan survives. There is also a third option where Nathan ends up killing Ryan and then shoots himself, but I don't know how this works. Probably depends on if you told Ryan that you love him or not.

 

[VisceralBowl]

The feels... Game was fantastic.!
The Homeless chapter was one of my favorites. So much power in some of the scenes.

Originally I chose Life, with Ryan. I actually felt bad as I watched her in the cabin. It got better once she started to sail around with him, but I still feel that it was the wrong choice. I went back and chose Beyond. I felt that it was much more appropriate.

 

[Replicant]

You can fuck up the dialogue with Nathan. If you just go with the default responses (press nothing) or choose the wrong ones (threaten or accusing him) then he will go completely nuts and aims his gun loosely at Jodie.

Ah, that's why. I cared too much about Nathan to not give him a good answer. He was the only person who truly care for Jodie ever since she was a girl. It's not really his fault that his mind snapped after his wife/daughter passed away. I figured the least I could do for him was to sympathize with his plight and that lead him to shot himself in the head.

On that note, I don't remember if we ever get explanation as to why other entities always try to harm Jodie ever since she was a kid? Is it because they're trying to get a hold of Aiden?

 

[CouldBeWorse]

The feels... Game was fantastic.!
The Homeless chapter was one of my favorites. So much power in some of the scenes.

Originally I chose Life, with Ryan. I actually felt bad as I watched her in the cabin. It got better once she started to sail around with him, but I still feel that it was the wrong choice. I went back and chose Beyond. I felt that it was much more appropriate.

I did the same my first time, and I felt really unsatisfied because Ryan was kind of an unlikeable prick and I never believed in their love (even though I made those choices - I'm a huge sap). I look forward to seeing other endings that might improve my overall opinion of the narrative. Maybe choosing "alone"

Questions:

1. Can you skip or fast-forward scenes upon replay so I don't have to repeat so many cutscenes just to see some alternate options and endings?

2. It was weird seeing the Navajo and homeless crew pop up at the end. You have enough distance in game time (if not real time) from those people that it's weird that they play such prominent roles in the end. Especially since (in my game at least) they're not mentioned or referenced during the last few hours.

 

[dragonbane]

Ah, that's why. I cared too much about Nathan to not give him a good answer. He was the only person who truly care for Jodie ever since she was a girl. It's not really his fault that his mind snapped after his wife/daughter passed away. I figured the least I could do for him was to sympathize with his plight and that lead him to shot himself in the head.

On that note, I don't remember if we ever get explanation as to why other entities always try to harm Jodie ever since she was a kid? Is it because they're trying to get a hold of Aiden?

Exactly. I tried to reason with him too. Don't know exactly why so many hated him or thought he was the villain. I felt more sorry for him than anything else. He wasn't evil at all, just lost.

The entities are attracted by Aiden yeah. You can see them during Homeless too for example. During First Night I think you can eavesdrop a conversation with Aiden between Nathan and Cole where they discuss the attacks on her. They basically got worse and worse over time. Even Aiden was scared of them. During First Night he finally tries to fight them for the first time and succeeds. Then Jodie says: "It's alright now. Aiden isn't scared of them anymore"

So he basically learned how to fight them and we can assume he constantly fights them off-screen from that point on whenever they appear.

I did the same my first time, and I felt really unsatisfied because Ryan was kind of an unlikeable prick and I never believed in their love (even though I made those choices - I'm a huge sap). I look forward to seeing other endings that might improve my overall opinion of the narrative. Maybe choosing "alone"

Questions:

1. Can you skip or fast-forward scenes upon replay so I don't have to repeat so many cutscenes just to see some alternate options and endings?

2. It was weird seeing the Navajo and homeless crew pop up at the end. You have enough distance in game time (if not real time) from those people that it's weird that they play such prominent roles in the end. Especially since (in my game at least) they're not mentioned or referenced during the last few hours.

1. Chapter selection is your friend here. For the alternative Life epilogues just replay the chapter "Epilogue". If you want to choose the Beyond ending you have to replay the entire Black Sun chapter unfortunately. Some variations require a full replay though.

2. In game time she meets both the Navajo and Homeless crew at the age of 23. The final chapter of the game takes place at the end of the same year, so she is still 23. So it's only been about 8 months and her memories of both are still strong obviously. Since she learned in the hospital that the homeless gang changed their way of life because of her, pretty much visited her every day and are missing her terribly they are definitely a family to her. The only people who accepted her as who she is, without judging her and sharing the little they have with her. Zoey pops up, because Jodie pulled her into the world and she only lives because of her. So it definitely can be argued that she feels attached to her as well.

The Navajo brothers told her that she could always return and that she has a home there. So it makes sense to offer it as an option, especially since the farm is far out there and she could lead a normal life without much interference from outside.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

Exactly. I tried to reason with him too. Don't know exactly why so many hated him or thought he was the villain. I felt more sorry for him than anything else. He wasn't evil at all, just lost.

The entities are attracted by Aiden yeah. You can see them during Homeless too for example. During First Night I think you can eavesdrop a conversation with Aiden between Nathan and Cole where they discuss the attacks on her. They basically got worse and worse over time. Even Aiden was scared of them. During First Night he finally tries to fight them for the first time and succeeds. Then Jodie says: "It's alright now. Aiden isn't scared of them anymore"

So he basically learned how to fight them and we can assume he constantly fights them off-screen from that point on whenever they appear.

I agree about Nathan. It's an extremely common character arc in comics (and it always ends with the character breaking much badder than they logically or realistically would, which is the reason that we don't see real world villains typically have a back story like that).

However, the devil's advocate in me wants to point out that Nathan did keep Ellie (I'm sorry, Jodie - I wanted to keep my slip in ) in captivity, did turn her over to the CIA multiple times, and ultimately, did use her as a tool to get to what he was really after.

I ultimately did view him sympathetically (that he "saved" Cole was important to me) and tried to reason with him.

1. Chapter selection is your friend here. For the alternative Life epilogues just replay the chapter "Epilogue". If you want to choose the Beyond ending you have to replay the entire Black Sun chapter unfortunately. Some variations require a full replay though.

2. In game time she meets both the Navajo and Homeless crew at the age of 23. The final chapter of the game takes place at the end of the same year, so she is still 23. So it's only been about 8 months and her memories of both are still strong obviously. Since she learned in the hospital that the homeless gang changed their way of life because of her, pretty much visited her every day and are missing her terribly they are definitely a family to her. The only people who accepted her as who she is, without judging her and sharing the little they have with her. Zoey pops up, because Jodie pulled her into the world and she only lives because of her. So it definitely can be argued that she feels attached to her as well.

The Navajo brothers told her that she could always return and that she has a home there. So it makes sense to offer it as an option, especially since the farm is far out there and she could lead a normal life without much interference from outside.

Thanks for the info. I had to run out of town right after completing the game yesterday so I didn't have time to mess with chapter select or bonus content. I assume by your lack of response that you can't skip or fast-forward anything?

Regarding #2, that makes complete sense but I see it as a failure of Cage and the storytelling that he didn't keep those other parts of Jodie's life prominently in the narrative (or at least, on her mind) during the last ~4 hours of the game. He got sucked into making a pretty mediocre scifi/love story during the last few hours (I couldn't roll my eyes hard enough when the sub surfaced - there was no logical reason to have it under water!) and completely abandoned more interesting narrative threads (on a personal level, at least) until throwing them back in at the VERY last moment.

4 hours is a really, really long time to just abandon important parts of her world. It just goes to show how much room Cage still has to grow as a story teller.

 

[Exis]

I chose life, and debated for awhile before doing the Ryan ending as he atleast had committed to Jodie.

I loved Beyond, my biggest issue was that the Aidan parts went from being able to go anywhere to going from orange point to point. When they introduced that I was kinda miffed.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

I chose life, and debated for awhile before doing the Ryan ending as he atleast had committed to Jodie.

I loved Beyond, my biggest issue was that the Aidan parts went from being able to go anywhere to going from orange point to point. When they introduced that I was kinda miffed.

The whole Aiden mechanic was arbitrary and half-baked. It was mostly fun to possess and choke people, but the restrictions that QD put on it shows their weakness in designing gameplay scenarios. That's maybe more for the OT, though.

 

[StevePharma]

Please tell me the Zoe Apocalypse Warrior Princess ending is the canon one.

 

[dragonbane]

I loved Beyond, my biggest issue was that the Aidan parts went from being able to go anywhere to going from orange point to point. When they introduced that I was kinda miffed.

Haha, you played on Easy didn't you? If you play on Normal you can fly around freely and explore the environment at your own pace. The orange points don't exist.

Thanks for the info. I had to run out of town right after completing the game yesterday so I didn't have time to mess with chapter select or bonus content. I assume by your lack of response that you can't skip or fast-forward anything?

Regarding #2, that makes complete sense but I see it as a failure of Cage and the storytelling that he didn't keep those other parts of Jodie's life prominently in the narrative (or at least, on her mind) during the last ~4 hours of the game. He got sucked into making a pretty mediocre scifi/love story during the last few hours (I couldn't roll my eyes hard enough when the sub surfaced - there was no logical reason to have it under water!) and completely abandoned more interesting narrative threads (on a personal level, at least) until throwing them back in at the VERY last moment.

4 hours is a really, really long time to just abandon important parts of her world. It just goes to show how much room Cage still has to grow as a story teller.

Yeah, Nathan and Jodie have a complicated relationship for sure. If you refer to a full replay you can skip ahead chapters using the chapter selection. If you mean inside the chapters themselves than no you can't skip any cutscenes, since they are all rendered in real time. Of course since there are choices there are ways to get through certain parts faster by failing/succeeding/making a different choice.

He should have maybe included a couple of references to them near the end. I thought it was alright. Focussing too much on them would have dragged the game too much and from her story it made sense that she didn't see them again. There is at least one reference if you answer Ryan when he asks what you are planning to do in the final chapter with "Friends". She then says: "Maybe I go back to the people I like. The ones that accept me as who I am. I haven't met too many along the way."

Please tell me the Zoe Apocalypse Warrior Princess ending is the canon one.

No clue, but it is IMO. Love that ending.

 

[NowCutThatOut]

Am I the only one who thinks would have been a much more interesting and coherent game if you just played as Aidan the entire time?

I enjoyed the game but it was a sci-fi character study where we never got to understand any of the science (except a throwaway "it's dead people" at the end) and had no control over the protagonist's choices beyond whether or not she kissed certain boys (I'm not even being sarcastic - other than the "pick an ending" part, I don't remember a single active decision Jodie gets to make that's not done by Aidan or doesn't involve failing a QTE).

I can understand that they didn’t want to make Jodie a blank slate, so I could put up with some of the annoyances like her sudden crush on Ryan (though it would have helped if the audience had seen one instance of him being charming or funny in his past appearance), but the lack of impact you can make with the dialogue choices was a huge weakness – Ryan comes back and the choice is like something between “bitter”, “cold”, “distant”, “aggressive”, which are all pretty much the same thing. Jodie may move around the screen better than the Heavy Rain cast, but I never really felt in control of her. Even when you get the illusion of choice, like Jodie’s suicide attempts, Aidan keeps them from having impact.

Casting the player as the “imaginary friend” the whole time would have given so much more freedom – getting to decide who gets punished and who gets rewarded, as well as whether or not you actually want to listen to Jodie, would have given so much more of a feeling of control, and a clearer understanding of Aidan’s motives. If the player got to shape the character in the way they saw fit (either an aggressive White Knight defending Jodie’s honour at all costs, a ‘laissez faire’ positive force, or a vindictive possessive partner), I think it would have had more impact.

Dawkins was the biggest letdown, with his sudden turn into a stock villain in the final act - other than a couple of minor choices in the last 30 minutes or so, you have no influence over the relationship between the two most important human characters. Imagine if Aidan’s actions throughout the game impacted Dawkins’ life. A kind, benevolent Aidan might help strengthen his relationship with Jodie and maintain his grip on reality despite his loss, while playing a destructive, angry Aidan could push Dawkins away from Jodie and towards the obsession with his wife. Maybe Aidan could deliberately not show his presence when Dawkins is around, hurting his career and the development of the DPA’s research; maybe he could manipulate things to make him the department entirely etc. etc. Humanising Jodie through her relationship with a well-developed character throughout the length of the game instead of through the Noble Homeless, Noble Navajo and Noble African Child Soldier would have been so much more effective.

I feel as though the whole benefit of the “interactive movie” is to give players the chance to shape the story, as well as show us scenarios that we don’t usually see in conventional games. Beyond flopped on both parts, since it seemed a lot more derivative of other games than the cheesy thrillers that inspired Fahrenheit/Heavy Rain. Parts like The Mission and The Container had the same sort of iconography and sequences we can get in all manner of standard action games, with better control and a greater sense of peril. The strongest parts of Beyond were the more ‘point and click adventure game’ moments like The Party, The Dinner and Homeless, which left the player to explore fairly atypical situations with clear objectives (awkward teenage girl trying to make friends, awkward woman planning a dream date & poor person trying to get money); that’s only 3 of the 20+ chapters where it really felt like controlling Jodie was more than perfunctory navigation or QTEs.

I love the idea of having a game with an atypical female heroine and it felt like Cage dropped the ball with need to make her an action hero badass; is there anyone who wouldn't have preferred Jodie to have been a more "normal" heroine with all the CIA/DPA stuff entirely absent?

 

[Ovek]

Loved this game but for some reason it felt more linear than Heavy Rain or Fahrenheit for some reason. Perhaps it was, perhaps it was the fact that I felt that I could never fail and indeed never did.

The endings I'm more disappointed with I suppose, I don't dislike them I just think they would have been better served without that apocalyptic ending snippet at the very end.

 

[dragonbane]

Am I the only one who thinks would have been a much more interesting and coherent game if you just played as Aidan the entire time?

I enjoyed the game but it was a sci-fi character study where we never got to understand any of the science (except a throwaway "it's dead people" at the end) and had no control over the protagonist's choices beyond whether or not she kissed certain boys (I'm not even being sarcastic - other than the "pick an ending" part, I don't remember a single active decision Jodie gets to make that's not done by Aidan or doesn't involve failing a QTE).

I can understand that they didn’t want to make Jodie a blank slate, so I could put up with some of the annoyances like her sudden crush on Ryan (though it would have helped if the audience had seen one instance of him being charming or funny in his past appearance), but the lack of impact you can make with the dialogue choices was a huge weakness – Ryan comes back and the choice is like something between “bitter”, “cold”, “distant”, “aggressive”, which are all pretty much the same thing. Jodie may move around the screen better than the Heavy Rain cast, but I never really felt in control of her. Even when you get the illusion of choice, like Jodie’s suicide attempts, Aidan keeps them from having impact.

Casting the player as the “imaginary friend” the whole time would have given so much more freedom – getting to decide who gets punished and who gets rewarded, as well as whether or not you actually want to listen to Jodie, would have given so much more of a feeling of control, and a clearer understanding of Aidan’s motives. If the player got to shape the character in the way they saw fit (either an aggressive White Knight defending Jodie’s honour at all costs, a ‘laissez faire’ positive force, or a vindictive possessive partner), I think it would have had more impact.

Dawkins was the biggest letdown, with his sudden turn into a stock villain in the final act - other than a couple of minor choices in the last 30 minutes or so, you have no influence over the relationship between the two most important human characters. Imagine if Aidan’s actions throughout the game impacted Dawkins’ life. A kind, benevolent Aidan might help strengthen his relationship with Jodie and maintain his grip on reality despite his loss, while playing a destructive, angry Aidan could push Dawkins away from Jodie and towards the obsession with his wife. Maybe Aidan could deliberately not show his presence when Dawkins is around, hurting his career and the development of the DPA’s research; maybe he could manipulate things to make him the department entirely etc. etc. Humanising Jodie through her relationship with a well-developed character throughout the length of the game instead of through the Noble Homeless, Noble Navajo and Noble African Child Soldier would have been so much more effective.

I feel as though the whole benefit of the “interactive movie” is to give players the chance to shape the story, as well as show us scenarios that we don’t usually see in conventional games. Beyond flopped on both parts, since it seemed a lot more derivative of other games than the cheesy thrillers that inspired Fahrenheit/Heavy Rain. Parts like The Mission and The Container had the same sort of iconography and sequences we can get in all manner of standard action games, with better control and a greater sense of peril. The strongest parts of Beyond were the more ‘point and click adventure game’ moments like The Party, The Dinner and Homeless, which left the player to explore fairly atypical situations with clear objectives (awkward teenage girl trying to make friends, awkward woman planning a dream date & poor person trying to get money); that’s only 3 of the 20+ chapters where it really felt like controlling Jodie was more than perfunctory navigation or QTEs.

I love the idea of having a game with an atypical female heroine and it felt like Cage dropped the ball with need to make her an action hero badass; is there anyone who wouldn't have preferred Jodie to have been a more "normal" heroine with all the CIA/DPA stuff entirely absent?

Interesting ideas dude. Would make for an awesome game. Unfortunately it sounds pretty intense in terms of writing workload, branching paths and design. Would be pretty expensive to make I assume and even harder to keep consistent in both story and presentation quality. But cool ideas nonetheless.

Still loved the game we got though, although it isn't perfect by any means.

 

[useyourfist]

well, just finished and did the life option and ended up on an island with ryan. The ending was so good as was the whole game!

latley ive found many good games and movies have had rubbish endings so this was such a refreshing change to me, and i cant believe i didnt click about Aiden, i mean the whole umbilical cord was staring me in the face the whole game lol.


Well done quanticdream, brilliant game and story! I hope they stay with the same basic format for whatever they do next as i love the story heavy nature of there games.

 

[nbnt]

The Zoey ending spoiler:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7415/10574312696_1c9087d724_o.png

Anyone else thinks that she kinda looks like a young Scarlett Johansson? Ellen + Scarlett for Beyond 2?

 

[dragonbane]

The Zoey ending spoiler:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7415/10574312696_1c9087d724_o.png

Anyone else thinks that she kinda looks like a young Scarlett Johansson? Ellen + Scarlett for Beyond 2?

She looks badass at any rate. Got this ending the first time and loved it. Jodie is about 38-43 in that shot depending on Zoey's exact age. While it seems odd to create such a high quality model for just one scene, I doubt we will see a sequel. Just not their style. Maybe the next game will be set in the same universe or something and she makes a cameo.

I suspect she is probably modelled after her actress, who is the worst one in the entire game for sure. During the Beyond ending you can hear her talk and it is pretty bad. Glad she remains mute in the Life ending. If they do something with her, they definitely need to find another one. It's alright here since she only has 5 lines anyway.

 

[nbnt]

She looks badass at any rate. Got this ending the first time and loved it. Jodie is about 38-43 in that shot depending on Zoey's exact age. While it seems odd to create such a high quality model for just one scene, I doubt we will see a sequel. Just not their style. Maybe the next game will be set in the same universe or something and she makes a cameo.

I suspect she is probably modelled after her actress, who is the worst one in the entire game for sure. During the Beyond ending you can hear her talk and it is pretty bad. Glad she remains mute in the Life ending. If they do something with her, they definitely need to find another one. It's alright here since she only has 5 lines anyway.

Oh, didn't know that. Yeah she's probably modeled after her actress.

I know it's not their style, but I really want a sequel, just for more Ellen and I've never been a fan of Ellen's work (not a big movie guy, and the movies I've seen her in, she wasn't the focus/main character) but her role in this game just fits her perfectly I think, and I never noticed how nice her voice is (IMO anyway, she sounds.. calm, I don't know how to describe it lol but I really like it).

 

[dragonbane]

Oh, didn't know that. Yeah she's probably modeled after her actress.

I know it's not their style, but I really want a sequel, just for more Ellen and I've never been a fan of Ellen's work (not a big movie guy, and the movies I've seen her in, she wasn't the focus/main character) but her role in this game just fits her perfectly I think, and I never noticed how nice her voice is (IMO anyway, she sounds.. calm, I don't know how to describe it lol but I really like it).

I wouldn't mind a sequel either. I was not a big fan of Ellen, but I liked her work and watched a couple of her movies on a plane just before Beyond came out. Juno and The East were both decent. Of course I also knew her from Inception.

I have to say though that her performance in Beyond is definitely my favourite so far. Really pleasant voice as you said and her acting is very good. The range of emotional content also allows her to really shine, whereas in most movies she is pretty limited or cast into a set character. Here her character evolves and she can put all her acting talent to good use. I totally bought her performance as nervous 14 year old, wild 16 year old, scared 18 year old and badass 24 year old. Very nice range and it definitely elevated the game into something that I love. Without her performance I doubt this would have happened and most of the emotional scenes would have left me cold probably.

So I would love a sequel too just to get more Page. Two female leads sure would be something
Here is an interesting interview with her about the game. It covers some broad topics as well, but eventually gets back to the game. She is very down to earth, humble and nice I have to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jznGf82VvuQ

 

[nbnt]

I wouldn't mind a sequel either. I was not a big fan of Ellen, but I liked her work and watched a couple of her movies on a plane just before Beyond came out. Juno and The East were both decent. Of course I also knew her from Inception.

I have to say though that her performance in Beyond is definitely my favourite so far. Really pleasant voice as you said and her acting is very good. The range of emotional content also allows her to really shine, whereas in most movies she is pretty limited or cast into a set character. Here her character evolves and she can put all her acting talent to good use. I totally bought her performance as nervous 14 year old, wild 16 year old, scared 18 year old and badass 24 year old. Very nice range and it definitely elevated the game into something that I love. Without her performance I doubt this would have happened and most of the emotional scenes would have left me cold probably.

So I would love a sequel too just to get more Page. Two female leads sure would be something
Here is an interesting interview with her about the game. It covers some broad topics as well, but eventually gets back to the game. She is very down to earth, humble and nice I have to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jznGf82VvuQ

Funny how I was just watching this interview! Hehe, she really is humble and pretty cool

 

[kerotan_eater]

Just finished the game, and its like 6:00AM so I will ramble and poorly word things.

Was it just me or was it being inferred that Aiden needed her -- well that's why I just chose the Beyond ending ... oh yeah and plus Ryan was on the other side -___-

Point number two --- It's kind of a messy game (in a million ways) but I finished the game in one day, so I definitely was engaged throughout which does say something.

The Navajo, sub mission, and Africa felt off to me though. Just finished it so forgive me, but the Navajo mission felt like filler ... I don't really understand how that relates to the rest of the plot. The Sub mission and Africa just felt like dumb dude bro missions. Though I didn't mind the little sub-plot with the kid.

Ryan is a really awfully executed character, like really bad.

Homeless was the best part. And there really is kind of a weird ending with the futuristic cliffhanger crap but ... eh okay its kind of cool at the same time I guess.

David Cage, really needed to simplify the story of this game, it got way too ludicrous with the more combative missions. He also needs; and this sounds weird considering the man, but he probably needs to refrain even more from having unnecessary action sequences, as I can tell he is afraid of not keeping the dudebros engaged, but all he should be aiming to make a tighter story, which lets face it ... is what his games are all and should be all about.

Also I ultimately feel like, every other supporting character was not developed enough for me to care about anyone all that much. I mean Cole and Nathan were fine but it felt like, we didn't see them develop their bonds with Jodie, well we sort of did with Nathan, but the presentation of it was out of order which screwed this part up. The homeless guys, we did witness them developing bonds.... but then they were out of the game until the very end which was a bummer.

Anyhow like I said, it's still a great and engaging experience. This game, when taken and analyzed apart probably looks and plays like crap. But the pacing was quite good as the fairly quick chapters that bounce around her life, made even the shallower levels easier to swallow. My biggest issue was that it made context, mainly those of certain character bond developments feel underdeveloped to the player

Oh well, I really hope David Cage still makes these kinds of games, they are frustrating but they are also great thrilling experiences in the moment. Mr. Cage definitely needs somebody, really good to go over his work, but even if he doesn't, I still want to play his game/work/art/or whatever you call it -- because they are I feel, ultimately engaging experiences; which, to get that debate out of the way is all that matters =]

So with all that said, I'll probably give it an 8.5 if anybody cares.

 

[dragonbane]

Funny how I was just watching this interview! Hehe, she really is humble and pretty cool

Yeah she really is. I appreciate her attitude on how she chooses her projects. I also liked how she doesn't care about reviews and actually prefers a polarized response haha
I was kinda worried some of the bad reviews might put her off, but seems like they didn't. I'm also glad that she loved the project and is playing and digging the game herself.

Just finished the game, and its like 6:00AM so I will ramble and poorly word things.

Was it just me or was it being inferred that Aiden needed her -- well that's why I just chose the Beyond ending ... oh yeah and plus Ryan was on the other side -___-

Point number two --- It's kind of a messy game (in a million ways) but I finished the game in one day, so I definitely was engaged throughout which does say something.

The Navajo, sub mission, and Africa felt off to me though. Just finished it so forgive me, but the Navajo mission felt like filler ... I don't really understand how that relates to the rest of the plot. The Sub mission and Africa just felt like dumb dude bro missions. Though I didn't mind the little sub-plot with the kid.

Ryan is a really awfully executed character, like really bad.

Homeless was the best part. And there really is kind of a weird ending with the futuristic cliffhanger crap but ... eh okay its kind of cool at the same time I guess.

David Cage, really needed to simplify the story of this game, it got way too ludicrous with the more combative missions. He also needs; and this sounds weird considering the man, but he probably needs to refrain even more from having unnecessary action sequences, as I can tell he is afraid of not keeping the dudebros engaged, but all he should be aiming to make a tighter story, which lets face it ... is what his games are all and should be all about.

Also I ultimately feel like, every other supporting character was not developed enough for me to care about anyone all that much. I mean Cole and Nathan were fine but it felt like, we didn't see them develop their bonds with Jodie, well we sort of did with Nathan, but the presentation of it was out of order which screwed this part up. The homeless guys, we did witness them developing bonds.... but then they were out of the game until the very end which was a bummer.

Anyhow like I said, it's still a great and engaging experience. This game, when taken and analyzed apart probably looks and plays like crap. But the pacing was quite good as the fairly quick chapters that bounce around her life, made even the shallower levels easier to swallow. My biggest issue was that it made context, mainly those of certain character bond developments feel underdeveloped to the player

Oh well, I really hope David Cage still makes these kinds of games, they are frustrating but they are also great thrilling experiences in the moment. Mr. Cage definitely needs somebody, really good to go over his work, but even if he doesn't, I still want to play his game/work/art/or whatever you call it -- because they are I feel, ultimately engaging experiences; which, to get that debate out of the way is all that matters =]

So with all that said, I'll probably give it an 8.5 if anybody cares.

Good post. His next game will have multiple writers, so you can expect some improvements.

The Navajo chapter was only important to her character. It serves as a transition chapter between running away and facing her past again. She finds a home, has a "job", people that appreciate her help without judging her and actually manages to do something good with Aiden. She kinda had that with the Homeless people as well, but she lost that after she was forced to run away again. In Navajo she pretty much finds herself, realizes that she can use her gift to help people and that she has to face her past (mother, Nathan, Cole, DPA, CIA). Navajo prepares her for this task and makes her ready to do it. She gains a lot of self-confidence in that chapter and learns to accept who she is.

So it's an important chapter in the sense, that the latter events wouldn't have happened without it.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Just finished this game. Need to mull over my feelings for a bit, then I will write more detailed impressions, but I was pretty damn impressed overall. I thought it was a much better experience than HR. Visuals particularly are just incredible. Impressed me more than most next gen games thus far revealed in that aspect.

 

[kerotan_eater]

Good post. His next game will have multiple writers, so you can expect some improvements.

The Navajo chapter was only important to her character. It serves as a transition chapter between running away and facing her past again. She finds a home, has a "job", people that appreciate her help without judging her and actually manages to do something good with Aiden. She kinda had that with the Homeless people as well, but she lost that after she was forced to run away again. In Navajo she pretty much finds herself, realizes that she can use her gift to help people and that she has to face her past (mother, Nathan, Cole, DPA, CIA). Navajo prepares her for this task and makes her ready to do it. She gains a lot of self-confidence in that chapter and learns to accept who she is.

So it's an important chapter in the sense, that the latter events wouldn't have happened without it.

Yeah, you could certainly make that argument now that I think about it (I wasn't really thinking about it)

Wait ... multiple writers ... where was this said??? If it's true, I'm even more interested in his next title now.

 

[dragonbane]

Wait ... multiple writers ... where was this said??? If it's true, I'm even more interested in his next title now.

Here. Two separate sources. I tracked the writers down and checked their profiles recently and they are working at QD since April 2012. They are working on the PS4 project (they didn't work on Beyond):

DC: But to answer your question, the evolution of the format, the evolution of the studio, requires that more people become capable of writing this kind of stuff. I'm very interested in what's going on with TV series, where's the showrunner and a team of writers, writing in the same direction. And this is actually what I'm building at our studio right now.

Q: You're moving towards a TV-like setup?

DC: Yeah, where I could continue to have the vision and the ideas - I have ideas for the next four or five games. This is what I love and I really enjoy but at the same time, instead of me spending a year away from the studio writing the damn thing, I could work for the team - people who could be more talented than I am, and bring in new ideas that I've not thought of - and work together in creating this thing. So, we're starting on this right now.

http://www.videogamer.com/ps3/heavy_rain/news/david_cage_i_remember_how_scared_we_were.html

"David has so many ideas that Quantic Dream doesn’t have enough resources to put all of these ideas into games," Fondaumière said. "Our job is to turn these ideas into projects. So we are trying to attract talent: script writers, directors, photographers. That’s currently what we are working on. It’s challenging but a very interesting process."

Cage is now joined by two other writers in script writing Quantic Dream's PS4 game in development. The results are "very positive" Fondaumière said.

http://www.destructoid.com/this-is-not-an-article-about-david-cage-252639.phtml

 

[Tizoc]

So no matter what I do...the CIA are still gonna create a new condenser and it'll go out of control creating a gigantic portal with evil spirits/souls coming out and ruining civilization?

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

So no matter what I do...the CIA are still gonna create a new condenser and it'll go out of control creating a gigantic portal with evil spirits/souls coming out and ruining civilization?

Yep. :lol

 

[dragonbane]

So no matter what I do...the CIA are still gonna create a new condenser and it'll go out of control creating a gigantic portal with evil spirits/souls coming out and ruining civilization?

They don't if you die and fail to destroy the condenser in the final chapter. Because then the world is already destroyed and there is no need for another one lol
When it comes to the "good" endings, it's not even clear if the final shot really happens or not, since she is only dreaming about it. It's just open ended and more of a "what if" scenario. In the end, similar to TLoU, the journey is what matters and not what you actually achieved.

 

[kerotan_eater]

Here. Two separate sources. I tracked the writers down and checked their profiles recently and they are working at QD since April 2012. They are working on the PS4 project (they didn't work on Beyond):



http://www.videogamer.com/ps3/heavy_rain/news/david_cage_i_remember_how_scared_we_were.html



http://www.destructoid.com/this-is-not-an-article-about-david-cage-252639.phtml

That's very good to hear. Quantic Dream and gaming needs him to be more restrained I think. I really like what he does, a lot, but it is also so glaringly flawed in some basic narrative areas. So hopefully a less autocratic approach might be the answer.

 

[taoofjord]

I really enjoyed the game, for the most part. But the final chapters (starting with the beginning of the final CIA mission) really stunk. David Cage's inability to avoid cliches really becomes grating when it turns into a blockbuster action movie epic. Nothing in that chapter onwards really comes across as cheesy beyond redemption and way too forced.

As far as the Navajo chapter, it was my favorite. It was the most fun by far, though the tone was really different from the rest of the game. It reminded me of an episode of some supernatural adventure TV show, and even though it was still silly, it worked better in that chapter than anywhere else. That said, her attraction to Jay (I believe that's his name) came out of nowhere and soured the last bit (but mainly the ending, if you pick to go back there). I was hoping she'd return and be good friends.

I really hate how they spun Dafoe's character into a cliche mad scientist. The military general was a joke from the beginning and an eye roll inducing idiot as the stuff in the final chapters played out.

Ryan was also unlikable from the beginning and I dislike how they forced Jodie into having an attraction to him. The only reason that would make sense for her to like him is because they stuff they went through is so insane that it makes her put the stuff he put her through to seem like nothing. Basically, it makes Jodie seem incredibly weak willed as a character.

There's also the fact that Jodie just couldn't catch a break. Similar to the recent Tomb Raider reboot, they just put her through too much shit that it becomes really uncomfortable for the type of the story Cage seems to want to tell. He basically another Kojima with his inability to maintain focus on a couple themes and emotions.

Nevertheless, I really enjoyed everything up to the part I mentioned. It's not brilliant but it was extremely entertaining.

 

[MilkBeard]

Just started playing this game. I didn't want to necrobump some of the other Beyond threads so I figured I'd post here. I'm not too worried about spoilers because I already had spoiled one of the bigger secrets of the game.

Anyway, I just started, and I think Beyond is actually a pretty good game. It's pretty polished and the story is actually pretty good so far. I tried to think back to some of the reviews like Jim Sterling's review, but I feel like he was a bit off base. But I suppose this game isn't for everyone. But it really does feel quite unique, like something we don't normally get in gaming.

I generally enjoy the bits where you get to walk around, and I think the Aiden concept is cool, but I don't always enjoy controlling him. Well, except for those moments where you are allowed to just go crazy, and in those instances I try to bust everything up and watch people get scared. It's quite funny how it brings out a rise in me when I'm destroying shit, ha ha. Boy does it feel good to take revenge. But I'd say the controls generally work pretty well. The graphics are pretty good, although the cutscenes do tend to look a little bit strange with the uncanny valley.

I rented the game, so I'm going to try and get as much in that I can before I have to take it back.

 

[dancrane212]

I really enjoyed the game, for the most part. But the final chapters (starting with the beginning of the final CIA mission) really stunk. David Cage's inability to avoid cliches really becomes grating when it turns into a blockbuster action movie epic. Nothing in that chapter onwards really comes across as cheesy beyond redemption and way too forced.

As far as the Navajo chapter, it was my favorite. It was the most fun by far, though the tone was really different from the rest of the game. It reminded me of an episode of some supernatural adventure TV show, and even though it was still silly, it worked better in that chapter than anywhere else. That said, her attraction to Jay (I believe that's his name) came out of nowhere and soured the last bit (but mainly the ending, if you pick to go back there). I was hoping she'd return and be good friends.

I really hate how they spun Dafoe's character into a cliche mad scientist. The military general was a joke from the beginning and an eye roll inducing idiot as the stuff in the final chapters played out.

Ryan was also unlikable from the beginning and I dislike how they forced Jodie into having an attraction to him. The only reason that would make sense for her to like him is because they stuff they went through is so insane that it makes her put the stuff he put her through to seem like nothing. Basically, it makes Jodie seem incredibly weak willed as a character.

There's also the fact that Jodie just couldn't catch a break. Similar to the recent Tomb Raider reboot, they just put her through too much shit that it becomes really uncomfortable for the type of the story Cage seems to want to tell. He basically another Kojima with his inability to maintain focus on a couple themes and emotions.

Nevertheless, I really enjoyed everything up to the part I mentioned. It's not brilliant but it was extremely entertaining.

Aside from Navajo, which I could take or leave, I feel pretty much the same way about the game. It really took a dive towards the end, did we really need the same "something terrible is coming" plot point as Indigo Prophecy? Even more so if you chose the Zoe path at the end.

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

Just finished the game last night, overall I am positive on it. However, there were too many chapters that were just not needed or poorly done. Also there were a lot of immersion breaking things in the game. Like in Africa when you are in the back of the truck and Aiden is driving. There are 3 vehicles not even a car lengths away with mounted 50 caliber guns on them, yet none of them fire on her. I guess they want to capture her, but then shoot out the tires or something.

Also didn't like the scenarios where you are doing essentially chores. Cleaning up the house for Ryan, collecting your things to go to the CIA (and that awful cry the entire time). I get what those scenes are doing, they are just not enjoyable.

My biggest issue with the game in general is that the solutions to every scenario are too obvious, and there are rarely any difficult decisions to be made. There isn't even a cliche scenario of you can only save one person or the other. Maybe the game needed a much better antagonist or evil to provide more weight to the game's "puzzles" and decisions. Because honestly I felt the game was antagonist free until the end, and even then I felt the General was the only real antagonist. I am not saying every game needs a villain to be good, but I do think this game would have benefited greatly from one. Like say for instance as a young Jodie the General shows up and puts you in an elaborate scenario where you and Aiden will be tested in a life threatening way with other gifted kids, something akin to 999. I just wish the power struggle over Jodie between the military, researchers, CIA, and Jodie's own desire to be normal would have been played up more. They could have used those things to lead to more scenarios where there wasn't an obvious solution or more difficult decisions needed to be made. Instead the game felt like a series of events where Jodie is simply manipulated because she has a gift, and at 23 she is done being manipulated. That isn't that powerful, and doesn't present much in the way of decision making.

To summarize fewer but more elaborate scenarios I think would have benefited this game a ton. Again think 999, but with these graphics and presentation and a larger story and world.

That said I still enjoyed the game, I just feel like there was a lot of missed opportunities. They had a chance to make this into a fantastic Adventure game with some extremely unique puzzles and scenarios, instead it feels like we are just watching Jodie be manipulated by a few people and by the end I don't even think Jodie was the primary focus, it was more about the Infraworld, which is really weird. Zoe the Apocalypse Warrior makes up for everything though, and I totally would play a more action focused open word game with her as the star. LOL.

 

[Oni Jazar]

Just finished the game this morning. I really enjoyed Heavy Rain but didn't like this after all is said and done. Mind blowing graphics, excellent voice acting and mocap. Good moments here and there but that's about all I enjoyed.

Heavy Rain had bad VO and ruined the ending but it had amazing tension and a great game structure. Characters were very vulnerable and that made every moment tense. Beyond had none of that. When there were thoughts of suicide I knew it would't lead anywhere. Every danger scene was limp. Well I guess patches would've kept his eye if I talked early?

In Heavy Rain I always recall the scene where you go to a suspect's house that had all the crosses. That was such an awesome gaming moment that put choice to the player. This game had none of that.

I also was offended when Nathan shot himself in the head and just had a happy reunion with his family. WTF wasn't he torturing his family souls every day for who knows how long? I think the notion of family members watching over you is dumb so I guess the whole premise falls flat personally.

I'm still interested in Cage's work but I was quite disappointed in this game.

 

[Yaari]

Just finished it, to clear some backlog in anticipation for the PS4. I never got the bar scene due to messing up on the way out with Cole. I got caught, so that never happened.

At the ending I picked Life, but at what cost, pretty much everyone was dead. I did not kill Nathan, I only strangled him, resulting in death for both Ryan and Nathan. Cole never made it inside after I failed to save him when he fell.

Pretty depressing game, I don't think I ever want to play it again. But I really loved it though. I'm reading the negatives here, and some definitely have good points but I don't want to think into it that much.

Looking forward to the next game, but I prefered an actual possible scenario like Heavy Rain had over this sci-fi stuff.

 

[Flandy]

Picked the game up for $25 on Black Friday and I just beat it a few minutes before making this post. Chose to live because I figured I'd die eventully anyway and get to see them again. To my surprise Aiden was still with me and let Jodie cry herself out for a few months lol. So uhh what was the ending scene about? They eventually build another condenser and the world goes to shit? Anyway, I really enjoyed my time with this game and I might play it again at another time. (Maybe play the chapters in chronological order this time?)

Yes, I've tried every option there and I choose the kiss option, get to her bed, and then she makes him stop. Im wondering if this is tied to the rape scene when you are a teenager and the choice you make there. I killed all of those guys in the bar.

lol. I left the bar after the bartender gave me a lemonade. Didn't even drink from it. I just got up and left because I figured I had been tricked and those dudes would do something to me since they had given me look if I stayed there for too long.

 

[Prologue]

Just finished it. I really enjoyed this game, even teared up towards the end. I picked the life ending, it was hard not to given the all the possible options for Jodie for that particular ending. She still had some living to do and the other side will come with time. Games like these that make me want to keep my PS3. I still haven't played Heavy Rain. Is it as moving as this?

I didn't like two particular things though.

- After seeing the second condenser, I was surprised that Jodie didn't completely lose it with Nathan after what happen previously. Seemed really odd to me.
-Wish they foreshadowed Nathan's issue a bit more. Came a bit out of left field.

Which brings me to say since I have never had a little sister (but I do have a niece). I felt like a guardian as Aiden. That even though Jodie was the main focus. I going to do anything I can to protect her on her journey. Like my purpose was to be that guardian. And I will say is a very unique feeling that I have never experienced in game like I have in Beyond Two Souls.

I really liked this aspect. My play style with Aiden changed as I grew to appreciate Jodie and cheer for Jodie.

 

[phoenixyz]

I am surprised that many people found the Nathan twist too random. The scene before that, when little Jodie goes to him and lets him talk to his family explained pretty well where it came from. The whole time I thought "No, don't do it, damn it." because that's exactly the kind of shit that messes a guy up beyond repair.

 

[Prologue]

I am surprised that many people found the Nathan twist too random. The scene before that, when little Jodie goes to him and lets him talk to his family explained pretty well where it came from. The whole time I thought "No, don't do it, damn it." because that's exactly the kind of shit that messes a guy up beyond repair.

I know there was a scene before to make it relevant but I just needed a bit more. Have him show a bit more irrational behavior after the incident. After that particular scene, Nathan seemed perfectly fine as Jodie grew older.

 

[Mesoian]

I am surprised that many people found the Nathan twist too random. The scene before that, when little Jodie goes to him and lets him talk to his family explained pretty well where it came from. The whole time I thought "No, don't do it, damn it." because that's exactly the kind of shit that messes a guy up beyond repair.

It's still sudden, the twist in his character just STARTS there. It's never hinted at before that scene and there are quite a few segments of the game that work against his motives to trap his family in the ether at all.

He goes from being a relatively upstanding father figure to, quite literally, the green goblin, in 2 scenes. That's awful pacing and it's really unnecessary considering that opening scene explaining how he misses his family could have been placed ANYWHERE in the story prior to that and had more validity. It's a shitty twist that's followed by wash of horrible stereotypes that the game seemed to be trying hard to tiptoe around prior to that.

 

[nbnt]

nvm

 

[dragonbane]

It's still sudden, the twist in his character just STARTS there. It's never hinted at before that scene and there are quite a few segments of the game that work against his motives to trap his family in the ether at all.

He goes from being a relatively upstanding father figure to, quite literally, the green goblin, in 2 scenes. That's awful pacing and it's really unnecessary considering that opening scene explaining how he misses his family could have been placed ANYWHERE in the story prior to that and had more validity. It's a shitty twist that's followed by wash of horrible stereotypes that the game seemed to be trying hard to tiptoe around prior to that.

But it is hinted at long before. After the accident (1999; Jodie is 9) there are only 4 scenes in the timeline where you see Nathan before Jodie is taken to the CIA. The first is The Party (2004; Jodie is 14), where he only appears for 1 minute and obviously hasn't been destroyed yet by his grief. He recovered and appears rather normal because Jodie is giving him a purpose and keeps him busy. Next up is Like Other Girls (2006; Jodie is 16), where Nathan has already developed a deep relationship with Jodie and cares for her. The Condenser (still 2006) follows and it is confirmed in this scene that this is the first time the DPA has ever build a condenser. So what Nathan plans at the end of the game wasn't possible before this day, so he obviously couldn't think about it prior to this scene. At the end of the scene where Jodie warns him to never build another condenser ever again his facial expressions are those of a conflicted man and give away that he already developed thoughts in bringing his family back. This is the first hint. The final scene is Separation (2007; Jodie is 17) where the game pretty much reveals to you for the first time that his daughter died while Jodie has the flashback through the music box. Nathan is acting weird when Jodie tells him about it. The mere fact that he put the music box there fully knowing what Jodie would see already shows that he is getting obsessed over seeing/hearing about his family. You can ask Cole about it and Jodie says "Don't you think Nathan is acting kinda strange lately?" and he replies "He is probably just nervous because he tries very hard to raise money for the lab at the moment". This is the next hint. He is acting strange and tries to raise more money for his research. Obviously it gets even worse when Jodie is taken away from him, the last person he really cared about that kept his attention elsewhere and saved him from going mad.

He is finally receiving all the funds he needs after he turns to the military for help (by promising them military applications in return). This is revealed in the Old Friends chapter. Granted you never see this happening because it happens while Jodie is working for the CIA. Nathan is promoted to the head of the DPA which builds another condenser closely under his watch. Between Separation and Norah (where Jodie finally sees Nathan again) almost 8 years have passed (2007-2014). So you don't know what happened to Nathan or what he did for almost 8 years. This long period of time is enough for his insanity to grow, especially since he is without Jodie and now knows about the condenser technology.

When Jodie meets him again during Norah he is already acting very strange towards her and she grows more and more suspicious of him. You can even fly with Aiden through the wall and already see the machine he build to communicate with his family. Finally during Black Sun it escalates when Jodie allows him to talk to his wife again for the first time since 15 years. He goes mad and basically interprets "let us go" as "release us into the real world". He is not really evil, he does what he does in good faith despite being insane.

So yeah the way Nathan is presented makes sense and there is no plot hole when you look at the whole timeline. However, I do agree with you that it could have been better presented to the audience. It all comes rather quick to have a tense finale without a proper build-up. But this has more to do with the execution and not with the way Nathan is written.

I didn't really mind it, because I saw it coming a long time ago. The hint during The Condenser chapter combined with Separation was enough to make me aware that something is very wrong with him. Some other LPers also figured this out around this point e.g. Jesse Cox. It isn't difficult if you pay close attention. Also Dafoe does a pretty good job carrying it through his facial expressions.


EDIT: Attached timeline for reference (click to enlarge):

 

[Mesoian]

But it is hinted at long before. After the accident (1999; Jodie is 9) there are only 4 scenes in the timeline where you see Nathan before Jodie is taken to the CIA. The first is The Party (2004; Jodie is 14), where he only appears for 1 minute and obviously hasn't been destroyed yet by his grief. He recovered and appears rather normal because Jodie is giving him a purpose and keeps him busy. Next up is Like Other Girls (2006; Jodie is 16), where Nathan has already developed a deep relationship with Jodie and cares for her. The Condenser (still 2006) follows and it is confirmed in this scene that this is the first time the DPA has ever build a condenser. So what Nathan plans at the end of the game wasn't possible before this day, so he obviously couldn't think about it prior to this scene. At the end of the scene where Jodie warns him to never build another condenser ever again his facial expressions are those of a conflicted man and give away that he already developed thoughts in bringing his family back. This is the first hint. The final scene is Separation (2007; Jodie is 17) where the game pretty much reveals to you for the first time that his daughter died while Jodie has the flashback through the music box. Nathan is acting weird when Jodie tells him about it. The mere fact that he put the music box there fully knowing what Jodie would see already shows that he is getting obsessed over seeing/hearing about his family. You can ask Cole about it and Jodie says "Don't you think Nathan is acting kinda strange lately?" and he replies "He is probably just nervous because he tries very hard to raise money for the lab at the moment". This is the next hint. He is acting strange and tries to raise more money for his research. Obviously it gets even worse when Jodie is taken away from him, the last person he really cared about that kept his attention elsewhere and saved him from going mad.

He is finally receiving all the funds he needs after he turns to the military for help (by promising them military applications in return). This is revealed in the Old Friends chapter. Granted you never see this happening because it happens while Jodie is working for the CIA. Nathan is promoted to the head of the DPA which builds another condenser closely under his watch. Between Separation and Norah (where Jodie finally sees Nathan again) almost 8 years have passed (2007-2014). So you don't know what happened to Nathan or what he did for almost 8 years. This long period of time is enough for his insanity to grow, especially since he is without Jodie and now knows about the condenser technology.

When Jodie meets him again during Norah he is already acting very strange towards her and she grows more and more suspicious of him. You can even fly with Aiden through the wall and already see the machine he build to communicate with his family. Finally during Black Sun it escalates when Jodie allows him to talk to his wife again for the first time since 15 years. He goes mad and basically interprets "let us go" as "release us into the real world". He is not really evil, he does what he does in good faith despite being insane.

So yeah the way Nathan is presented makes sense and there is no plot hole when you look at the whole timeline. However, I do agree with you that it could have been better presented to the audience. It all comes rather quick to have a tense finale without a proper build-up. But this has more to do with the execution and not with the way Nathan is written.

I didn't really mind it, because I saw it coming a long time ago. The hint during The Condenser chapter combined with Separation was enough to make me aware that something is very wrong with him. Some other LPers also figured this out around this point e.g. Jesse Cox. It isn't difficult if you pay close attention. Also Dafoe does a pretty good job carrying it through his facial expressions.


EDIT: Attached timeline for reference (click to enlarge):

I don't think anyone is saying it's a plot hole. The fact that the story is disjointed makes it so they can cover plotholes as they go. The problem is that it's handled abysmally; the last 3 holes of the game are.

There are a ton of little quirks here and there and imply that Nathan may or not have been losing his mind, but they point more to the fact that he's emotionally stunted and doesn't know how to effectively handle himself when it comes to responsibility to his benefactors and the shear ideal of loss when the rubber hits the road, as depicted in him not even telling Jodie that she would have to leave one day and his clear lack of parental foresight before the birthday party as well as his complete integral breakdown during the first facility breach. For him to go from distraught and awkward adult to THE GREEN GOBLIN like it does is completely hamfisted. But it's not just that, the entire last hour of the game is suddenly filled with as many film cliches as possible. The general who hasn't seen much experience so he shits himself at the first sign of the trouble, the dutiful boyfriend who's striving to play the hero, the wise black man who sacrifices himself for the group, the wise mentor who betrays his disciple in attempts to fulfill his own selfishness; Beyond did a really good job staying away from those kinds of cliches, even if it set itself up for a lot of predictable moments or moments that defy reality (the birthday party was written by people who don't have and hate children, I'm sure of it), but the end of the story feels like they forgot what the climax was supposed to be a shoehorned as much crap as they could into it. It's really heartbreaking when the game's narrative falls apart 20 minutes before it ends.

Keep in mind, Nathan's turning into a super villain isn't the most egregious thing the game does, but it's up there.

 

[Philia]

Just putting this in here. I've beaten this game a while back (a month ago?) and 100% it and loved it somewhat. I still put TLOU above this game though. But never mind that... there's this ONE LITTLE THING... that bugs the fuck out of me since I've beaten this game.

The biological mom and dad were supposedly have the gift? What the fuck does Aiden become here then. Did both parents actually have an stillborn twin too? That odds of that happening is stupidly abysmal.

Jodie having the gift wasn't because of her both gifted parents obviously but because of Aiden, her stillborn twin. So that tidbit in the plot and the scene of her mom preggers really bugs the fuck out of me. I hope I'm not alone in noticing this dumb disparity.

 

[dragonbane]

I don't think anyone is saying it's a plot hole. The fact that the story is disjointed makes it so they can cover plotholes as they go. The problem is that it's handled abysmally; the last 3 holes of the game are.

There are a ton of little quirks here and there and imply that Nathan may or not have been losing his mind, but they point more to the fact that he's emotionally stunted and doesn't know how to effectively handle himself when it comes to responsibility to his benefactors and the shear ideal of loss when the rubber hits the road, as depicted in him not even telling Jodie that she would have to leave one day and his clear lack of parental foresight before the birthday party as well as his complete integral breakdown during the first facility breach. For him to go from distraught and awkward adult to THE GREEN GOBLIN like it does is completely hamfisted. But it's not just that, the entire last hour of the game is suddenly filled with as many film cliches as possible. The general who hasn't seen much experience so he shits himself at the first sign of the trouble, the dutiful boyfriend who's striving to play the hero, the wise black man who sacrifices himself for the group, the wise mentor who betrays his disciple in attempts to fulfill his own selfishness; Beyond did a really good job staying away from those kinds of cliches, even if it set itself up for a lot of predictable moments or moments that defy reality (the birthday party was written by people who don't have and hate children, I'm sure of it), but the end of the story feels like they forgot what the climax was supposed to be a shoehorned as much crap as they could into it. It's really heartbreaking when the game's narrative falls apart 20 minutes before it ends.

Keep in mind, Nathan's turning into a super villain isn't the most egregious thing the game does, but it's up there.

Fair enough. Too bad it bothered you so much. I thought the ending was one of the best parts of the game, even if the setup was clichéd. Nathan's turn just made me feel pity for him, but not anger like the green goblin would. It's not like he ever attacks you, even at the end he is just lost and doesn't know what he is doing. I didn't think for one second that he is evil, but that is just me. I can understand and accept that he changed within the 8 years Jodie was separated from him, even if I didn't see it myself.

But then again, I also enjoyed the Birthday scene. It reminded me an awful lot of my own childhood and I do know some people that act in the exact same way these douchebags did. Getting revenge on them was almost satisfying on a personal level. Some dudes from The Player 1 Podcast who are actually parents also thought this scene represented their worst nightmares as parents and liked the chapter. But it's probably subjective, so whatever.

Just putting this in here. I've beaten this game a while back (a month ago?) and 100% it and loved it somewhat. I still put TLOU above this game though. But never mind that... there's this ONE LITTLE THING... that bugs the fuck out of me since I've beaten this game.

The biological mom and dad were supposedly have the gift? What the fuck does Aiden become here then. Did both parents actually have an stillborn twin too? That odds of that happening is stupidly abysmal.

Jodie having the gift wasn't because of her both gifted parents obviously but because of Aiden, her stillborn twin. So that tidbit in the plot and the scene of her mom preggers really bugs the fuck out of me. I hope I'm not alone in noticing this dumb disparity.

Having a "gift" just refers to possessing some kind of supernatural ability. It doesn't automatically mean having an entity attached to you. While Jodie is not the only one out there with an entity attached to her (as Navajo shows), most other "gifted" people are just psychics (like Jodie's parents). Meaning they can see the entities, dead people and have visions of the future like Jodie has. Sometimes they can even slightly move objects themselves, but they don't have enough power to cause any havoc like Aiden could. They don't have an entity attached to them. Jodie has a "gift" because of her parents (visions, ability to see entities) + the additional circumstance of what happened to her twin. So she is a psychic attached to an entity, which makes her as powerful as she is. Others weren't so lucky and you can see what happened to them when you check out all the rooms with Aiden in the Norah chapter. Tons of gifted people are locked up there who can see Aiden and talk to him, but don't have an entity attached to them.

 

[Shadownet]

Are we supposed to assume that they purposefully killed Aiden in the womb so that he'd latch on or...

You're right; It's better to just not think about it.

No. Aiden was accidentally killed in the womb when the cord wrapped around his neck. His soul then was attracted to his sister.

You missed the mark by a pretty wide margin