SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
he's been permabanned.
[Digital Foundry] Metal Gear Solid Delta - PS5/ PS5 Pro Tech Review - A Beautiful UE5 Remake With Frame-Rate Issues
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Analysis Review
Lucifers Beard
Member
Oh this is done by the Oblivion Remaster studio? No thank you, that games performance is fucking dreadful.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Not sure what you are trying to say here. Yes, nanite wouldve allowed them to have assets that didnt look like garbage while reducing disc size. Which in turn wouldve allowed them to have better quality assets like Mafia.
Nanite also helps with vram. those garbage looking assets in FF7 Rebirth are likely due to them hitting either vram limit or maxing out the bandwidth. I highly doubt they had their artists make ps2 quality apples in 2020. its actually harder to draw something that looks that poor.
Nanite doesn't reduce asset size on disc or storage it actually increases it for high poly count. You can compress assets but this isn't what nanite introduced. It was a method to reduce size in RAM only. SE reduce their asset quality simply due to reducing disc and storage size not because of other limits, that's what I'm trying to say.
Not sure what you're showing here other than the asset quality. Nobody is disputing the fact that they reduce them. It's the reason why that we're discussing and that is due to the fact that rebirth has a lot more varied assets to hit that 145GB. They reduce them not to hit 300GB in assets. Mafia is a smaller game in terms of assets despite using nanite because it has less asset variety in the game world.I don't see that... Rebirth is full of duplicated assets and open world is very limited, there are few different "biomes" in the game. Even GTA5 from PS3 is bigger, has more freedom and variety of objects on screen.
It's just SE being incompetent. This game looks like that:
Bojji
Gold Member
It's full of repeated assets like all other open world games.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
No, nanite allows devs to put only one asset on the disc instead of creating 5-10 different LOD models for each asset. Not to mention different texture maps for each lighting condition. One lousy apple can then have 20 different assets. Nanite and Lumen do away with that. That reduces disc size.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Sigh, why do we keep blaming virtuous studios?
This was done by an internal team. Virtuous might have helped ship the game, but the main development was done by konami. You literally had dev interviews with japanese developers some who were on the original MGS3 dev team.
The pro has been so damn underwhelming...yes, the devs aren't great, but from a broader perspective its a running theme, still can't believe how bad and undercooked Pssr is, especially with Gi and RT. The main selling point of the console was the PSSR and RT tech due to its paltry spec uplift and by the end of 2025, its still buggy and terrible when its supposed strong point RT and Gi are involved. By the time fsr4 gets integrated, the ps6 will be a year out. That's not the kind of treatment you expect from a supposed premium pro console.
I still cant believe Sony didnt even put out any funds to support developers to put some showcase ports, they could have given the cyberpunk devs a small budget and got a RT showcase build out dedicated to the pro with full rt suite on display perhaps even cut down path tracing with reduced bounces like the old digital foundry video explored, given GG and other first party studiosa small budget to add a proper pro port with upgraded Gi/RT but nope lets just slap on a 60fps sticker polished or not and we good.
I still cant believe Sony didnt even put out any funds to support developers to put some showcase ports, they could have given the cyberpunk devs a small budget and got a RT showcase build out dedicated to the pro with full rt suite on display perhaps even cut down path tracing with reduced bounces like the old digital foundry video explored, given GG and other first party studiosa small budget to add a proper pro port with upgraded Gi/RT but nope lets just slap on a 60fps sticker polished or not and we good.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Dude, didnt you see the cerny interview posted here? He was baffled that he needed to test every new version of PSSR. AMD told him you need a dedicated QA team to test each version, and he was like really? I had no idea!
Absolutely ridiculous and amatuerish stuff from someone who has been developing consoles for the last 15 years, and making games since he was literally 15 years old.
Even now, they could just replace FSR4 with PSSR since FSR4 is built for the same AI hardware. But despite FSR4 coming out six months ago, they still wont be able to move to it until next year. they probably have one guy working on it and he's probably doing it on his spare time because porting stuff like this shouldnt take that long. he probably doesnt even have an engineering team for PSSR anymore.
Lucifers Beard
Member
Ah my apologies, didn't realise it was internal. Still, I'm not playing this one on release. Maybe I'll grab it next year when it's on deep sale. I only finished the original earlier this year.
They are busier trying to convince PC players buy their games and use PSN. Anyway, people thinks PSSR 2.0 (FSR4) will be better, but I'm not really sure. The most problems people have with PSSR is the noise because Sony is not denoising with PSSR, this could happen with PSSR 2.0 too.
viveks86
Member
Actually, we don't know if the Pro does FP8 do we? The PSSR update may require that int8 version that got leaked on github. There has been conflicting reports on Pro's capability for this iirc
Bojji
Gold Member
Pro is Int8 I think.
I don't know if this was mentioned in the original video but looking at new DF video - 30fps mode on regular PS5 has fucked up frame pacing...
No escape.
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isn't true regarding those assets that lack high LOD versions altogether though and the poor lighting in the game is because they don't have different texture maps to match lighting either. That lousy apple posted earlier simply has a low LOD version and only that and the reason isn't that it can't render it at higher poly. It's because SE choose to use low poly for game size purposes by setting their minimum LOD level to reduce their package size. Nanite wouldn't really help in the case of package size for rebirth either.
Wasn't suggesting moving to nanite isn't beneficial but it probably isn't for game size too if they kept high poly versions of those assets despite not having different LOD versions. you get very little savings from this vs removing the higher LODs altogether and you can test this in Unreal yourself. Adding LODs to an object hardly makes any difference to the asset size.
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I mean first years on sony new hardware are always underwhelming for a reason or another so I'm not exactly surprise PSSR isn't in the state as many expected. Said that PSSR if used properly is absolutely a respectable upscaler (AC Shadows is superb) but obviously minor studios barely add it and they don't care to refine because who care to spend time and money for a minuscule userbase. Let's see if with the time sony find a way to deliver a better PSSR for everyone not just big studios, for now it's still too early.
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But FSR4 has denoise. Though I'd prefer to see the denoiser available before the PSSR2 .
AC Shadows anyway should use already a sort of denoiser with the PSSR for sure because hardly I noticed any artifacts as in the others.
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I mean if AMD is so smarter and professional why everytime beg to make deal with Cerny about new techs...
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Like I mentioned earlier, 1/3rd of Spiderman 2 is lighting data. You go realtime and you can cut that down substantially.
There is a reason why nearly every single UE5 game is 30-60 gb in size when last gen games like Horizon FW were coming in at 100 GB. Despite having industry leading textures and models. The lack of LODs and texture data for different lighting conditions allows them to push for higher level of detail.
I would imagine they would sit on the disc as 5-10 different objects. If you do this for virtually every single object in the game it would add up but if thats not the case then fine.
tomorrow? its coming out 3 days from now.
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Imo (but I could be wrong) most of the normal gamers won't notice such issues as in the original. I watched many walkthrough; there were fps drops but mostly when the alert is on and multiple enemies searching or engage you. The same shit happened already in the original and it's clear they have mostly update the graphic barely caring about the fps perfomance.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
probably because this never happened. AMD developed their own FSR solution instead of using Cerny's custom checkerboard solution. They used their own infinity cache solution for RDNA2 instead of using his custom i/o solution. Cerny is the one who has literally been using AMD GPUs for his last 4 consoles. And not doing a great job at that since he continues to starve them of bandwidth time and time again.
i like cerny but he literally took a 16.7 tflops 6800 and then managed to turn it into a 14.5 tflops GPU that cant even perform to its fullest potential. So yes, AMD is smarter because their 16.7 tflops GPU actually performs like a 16.7 tflops GPU.
Lol they complimented Cerny to have helped them to develop the new gpu tech inside the ps5, infinity cache is practically heavily inspired to the caches scrubbers of ps5 and I wouldn't be surprise if Cerny/Sony helped them to accelerate the FSR4 release because they were in terrible delay in their roadmap an year ago. And you ever seen nvidia searching deal with Sony? That's because AMD desperately needs of their helps.
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Bojji
Gold Member
ATI/AMD have been making GPUs for 25 years now...
It's everyone making deals with AMD, everyone wants their APUs (Sony, MS, Valve etc.). AMD likes Sony money as well, their desktop GPUs aren't exactly selling well.
A thing doesn't exclude the other. PSSR was already available before FSR4. Seems more AMD leaning to search Sony cooperation than the contrary.IMO.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lol none of this is true. Delusion 101.
Kerotan
Member
Deluxe edition
You wouldn't be surprised? It's confirmed FSR4 happened in the collab project.
Cache scrubbers are simply the IO system communicating to the GPU which data blocks have changed, so that only specific cache lines are invalidated rather than the entire cache being flushed. They're not related to the idea of using a large last level cache. Arguably AMD were already on this path with the High-Bandwidth Cache Controller feature in Vega, that would allow VRAM to be used as a kind of cache.
(And an Infinity Cache is the one idea that has limited applicability in the console space due to the die costs)
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Probably not. They're probably gonna use existing tools and assets with little to no enhancements to try and push it out as fast as they can. I reckon it's either a late 2026 or Feb 2027 title.
I mean, they were clearly not ready with their AI upscaler, but that still has nothing to do with them not dedicating any resources to making ps5pro showcases and ports. Its just a terrible console all around and bad value as well, they basically decided to see how much they could fleece their loyal consumers while delivering the least amount possible. It's underpowered, badly overpriced, it's terribly unbalanced to the point it cant even utilize even the paltry compute increase well due to low bandwidth and to make matters worse they hamstrung the available actual architectural improvements by taking the easy way to compatibility with rdna2 to the point it doesn't even deliver significant improvements in fully like RDNA4.
The pro has basically largely removed confidence I had in the ps6 being well designed and impressive.
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balls of snow
Member
Yep its tradeoff. If its at low res at least have a stable rock solid framerate of 30/60 fps. Having big fluctuations from 50's to low 40's to high 30's just gives me a headache.
What is not true? Cerny has collaborate with AMD for Navi and FSR4. And before FSR4, AMD started multiple relationship with other companies (also samsung) to built an hardware version of FSR and it's ended with Sony helped to finalize FSR4. I understand you started to hate Sony but it has some merits in some AMD tech whatever you think about them.
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So why there isn't infinity cache in the earlier Navi gpu?
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Lagspike_exe
Member
Cost?
It costs later too...
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Raytracing is notable improved to the base hardware and you will see in the next capcom games. Yes the console is not perfectly balanced and high priced, you are disappointed, ok, but terrible now... I think ps3 was even worst balanced in comparison. Anyway there are many multiplat games who proved if the developer care they can deliver interesting graphic boost but I know only bad ports are the valid argumentation when we talk about the ps5 pro performance.
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AMD didn't need it because GDDR6 delivered enough bandwidth for the performance of Navi 10. Moreover it was based on the L3 caches used on the CPU side, and Zen 1 would still have been in development when work started.
We can see the exact same thing with Nvidia where Ampere has no large last level cache, because Nvidia opted for faster memory and wider buses. But Ada finally had to ship with a huge L2 cache.
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I'm not trying to invalidate what you said but I'm not talking only of cache scrubbers; why the whole I/O system of ps5 shouldn't have inspired the AMD infinity cache, somehow.
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I've not seen the Spiderman 2 breakdown of asset budget but spiderman 1 had 4 times of day and even then only had 24MB for lighting. A large portion wasn't lighting, it had 20MB for "detail", 9MB for models, etc for each city tile only. The rest of the game made up a lot of data though. You can see the breakdown here at around the 23min mark onwards. FF7 Rebirth doesn't have 4 times of day though. The time of day never changes so what you're saying doesn't apply to FF Rebirth at all.
That's because most UE5 games have been fairly small projects in comparison to games like Horizon where there is a lot of voice data and animation data. Even then bigger games like Black Myth Wukong come in at 104GB on UE5 so what you're saying simply isn't true.
Let me show you the example of spiderman
Notice lighting isn't huge even for a game with 4 times of day. Notice texture and models are pretty big. Notice that the highest quality texture is much larger than the lower quality ones combined. You can save much more by cutting the highest quality models/textures than saving by cutting the lower quality ones but keeping the higher quality asset only. Again you can try this yourself in UE. Create LODs with Simplygon and see the package size difference. It's not much at all especially as Oodle Kraken tends to compress the different LODs well. Cut those high quality textures and high poly models though and you have much less data to begin with. That's why FF Rebirth opts for lower quality, but has high quantity and variety. With nanite it's possible to have high quality but adding a lot of variety/quantity balloons your game size fast and the fact LODs are cut doesn't help that much. You can use instances of the same objects to keep things in check and even opt to use less textures entirely, relying on higher polygon count instead but this cuts variety. What I'm trying to tell you though is that SE opt for lower quality purely for game size and they prefer variety and quantity over screenshots looking good of close up assets. They've even said as much themselves:
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Unfortunately that's true. I am a loyal Sony customer and I have the impression I got completely scammed by the Pro.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
if you count up all the texture data which is basically lighting data since the lighting is baked into the textures, but if you count them all its 1/3rd of the disc here too. Spiderman 2 is the same.I've not seen the Spiderman 2 breakdown of asset budget but spiderman 1 had 4 times of day and even then only had 24MB for lighting. A large portion wasn't lighting, it had 20MB for "detail", 9MB for models, etc for each city tile only. The rest of the game made up a lot of data though. You can see the breakdown here at around the 23min mark onwards. FF7 Rebirth doesn't have 4 times of day though. The time of day never changes so what you're saying doesn't apply to FF Rebirth at all.
That's because most UE5 games have been fairly small projects in comparison to games like Horizon where there is a lot of voice data and animation data. Even then bigger games like Black Myth Wukong come in at 104GB on UE5 so what you're saying simply isn't true.
Let me show you the example of spiderman
Notice lighting isn't huge even for a game with 4 times of day. Notice texture and models are pretty big. Notice that the highest quality texture is much larger than the lower quality ones combined. You can save much more by cutting the highest quality models/textures than saving by cutting the lower quality ones but keeping the higher quality asset only. Again you can try this yourself in UE. Create LODs with Simplygon and see the package size difference. It's not much at all especially as Oodle Kraken tends to compress the different LODs well. Cut those high quality textures and high poly models though and you have much less data to begin with. That's why FF Rebirth opts for lower quality, but has high quantity and variety. With nanite it's possible to have high quality but adding a lot of variety/quantity balloons your game size fast and the fact LODs are cut doesn't help that much. You can use instances of the same objects to keep things in check and even opt to use less textures entirely, relying on higher polygon count instead but this cuts variety. What I'm trying to tell you though is that SE opt for lower quality purely for game size and they prefer variety and quantity over screenshots looking good of close up assets. They've even said as much themselves:
I have no idea why the FF7 devs limited themselves to 150 gb. A 4k UHD can contain 100 gb and they shipped on two discs anyway.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
True ...disappointing game graphically and the ps5 pro version that people celebrated as a huge win for the console isn't deserving of that much praise. The amount of pop-in is rediculous. The draw in is bad like many games this gen that don't use Nanite. Quality mode is a lot better looking and more stable.Rebirth is probably one of the best examples of art over tech.
It's full of very low quality assets, to me it felt like the game may have been designed as a cross-gen PS4 game for a long while before SE shifted it to just being PS5 only.
It also has worse effect quality for things like shadows, texture filtering etc compared to the Intergrade re-release of FFVII-R on PS5.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
I've been saying this for months and now finally people are finalky realizing just how ugly the sutuation is.
Zephyranthes
Member
Having the PS5 Pro version's only available setting run at a lower resolution than Base PS5 Graphics Mode is a strange decision. I get that they expected PSSR to make up some of the difference, but in the end you still have the best visual fidelity option on the weaker hardware, which I would definitely have a hard time accepting if I had paid 700+ USD for a console specifically marketed on the idea of not having to compromise.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
To be fair, this game is very heavy even on PC. The 5080 can barely run this at 1440p 60 fps natively. Consistently drops to the 50s and im sure the explosions you see here will drop to 30 fps just like it does on the pro.
The 5080 is almost 80% more powerful than the 3080 which is 80% more powerful than the ps5. So you are looking at something 2x more powerful than the ps5 pro and its struggling as well.
this is just a bad remake and not optimized at all. What did you think of Mafia and Expedition 33 on the Pro?
Justin9mm
Member
How they can justify $109 AUD for a remake is beyond me! Yes, this is re-made from the ground up but it's an already existing game. Will wait for sale. To be honest, I was a little bit excited for this because I actually missed playing the original, as far as Metal Gear Solid entries, I've only played 1, 2, 4 & I dropped 5, I thought 5 was a bit shit!
Where does this one rank in comparison to those?
Where does this one rank in comparison to those?
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kazuyamishima
Member
I pre-ordered the $169 AUD deluxe edition, best money spent.
I always liked Kojima games, this is one of them, just remade from the ground, same story, same soundtrack, same dialogue.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
This widely considered the best Metal Gear