peanutbutterlatte
Member
So is Tom Baker constantly on some form of hallucinogenic? He speaks and acts like the Little Britain narrator... all the time.
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Doctor Who 50th Anniversary |OT| Splendid Chap, All Of Them
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EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
Tom Baker is constantly high on Tom Baker.
UnblessedSoul
Member
Really liked this episode, I haven't watched Doctor who since Jenna became the new companion she seems to have lost weight as well, unless my eyes deceive me, but yes it was nice seeing all the old faces John Hurt is a great actor.
Nicktendo86
Member
That scene summed up what is wrong with modern who for me. Yes, that was actually a really great/funny thing, we all get the gag, but had to be stretched out by Clara saying "wait a minute, you didn't think to check the door?" There was no need for that dialogue, it convoluted a great moment. This is a small criticism of a single scene, however it is the sort of thing that happens all the time in modern who.
Oh, and hurt writing no more on that wall with a gun was bloody stupid. Middle of a battle, daleks everywhere, oh let's attract attention to myself by writing a message on a wall PERFECTLY by shooting a laser gun.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
John Hurt is truly fantastic. That "Oh! OH!" moment when he realizes they can save Galifrey is one of the best moments in Doctor Who. And the "Thankyou" when the other Doctors come back so he doesn't have to face it alone. Absolutely fantastic.
I guess I'm not seeing how the universe isn't still portrayed as a dangerous place in the Eleventh Doctor's run? It seemed violent enough to me. More over, though, I honestly liked that they ended this entire thing on a positive and redemptive note, because after 3 Doctors you can only drag on the "Woe is me I killed them all" for so long. Show was so dark, so I was glad to see some light finally cast on the character of the Doctor.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
"Never cruel or cowardly"
1st and 7th Doctors: "Lol"
Are people seriously saying that? A period in which an antagonist deliberately manufactures the child of the Doctor's companions into a twisted Time Lady intended only to destroy him is way darker than any Davros/Dalek plot.
1st and 7th Doctors: "Lol"
Are people seriously saying that? A period in which an antagonist deliberately manufactures the child of the Doctor's companions into a twisted Time Lady intended only to destroy him is way darker than any Davros/Dalek plot.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Really? You think that's darker than Davros harvesting food from the bodies of people who had come believing they were to be placed in stasis until medical science could cure them, feeding that to the rest of the galaxy, and then also using those bodies as a source for new organic material for a new breed of Daleks?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Well... they're both dark enough, I'd say. You could say that Eleven's never had an antagonist as such, but all the better for it really. You had Kovarian, rumored to make a return, but I liked the theme that the Doctor's enemies are only part of his problems.
Choppasmith
Member
Little late, but I thought it was awesome. Yeah nit much I can add (Whoa! Capaldi! Baker! Aww no Eccleston). Did anyone else get a Black Adder vibe from Queen Elizabeth? I thought it was kind of crazy and confusing how she just so happened to play the part of the shapeshifter out of the blue. Felt a little contrived.
Also between Name of the Doctor and this, I've been playing a lot of Xenoblade and hearing hours and hours of Jenna Coleman as Melia. It's funny to come back and see/hear her as Clara again.
Also between Name of the Doctor and this, I've been playing a lot of Xenoblade and hearing hours and hours of Jenna Coleman as Melia. It's funny to come back and see/hear her as Clara again.
I disagree, I don't think Eccelston was ever going to be the War Doctor, we know Moffat had talks with him before they started filming but I can't see them writing a script that relied on him being there, especially considering his view on the show over the last number of years since he left. They probably wanted him with 10 and 11, or maybe just for a proper regeneration scene, but never as the War Doctor.
It's a shame really, considering he was the one who played The Doctor that brought the show back, but now he is the guy who wouldn't return for one of TV's oldest shows biggest celebration.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Well that was way more amazing than I thought it would be.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
Ahh yes, probably right. Would be a bit strange to end what is supposed to be the "next 50 years of Doctor Who" two series after the 50th anniversary by returning there straight away.
Anyway, very excited for Capaldi's run, been watching The Thick of It and he's just fantastic, but we've still got a Matt Smith regeneration to get through yet. Tearing up at the mere thought.
APZonerunner
Member
I don't think Moffat ever wrote a script that was 100% for Eccleston, but I reckon when he conceived the idea for the story of this episode it was for a modern day "three Doctors" with Eccleston in the role Hurt later ended up taking, and he simply adjusted the story as necessary so it didn't break once Eccleston said he wouldn't do it.
There's definitely weirdness surrounding it, anyway. John Hurt said yesterday in some new interviews that he only was offered the job 4-5 days before filming started, and he had to rush fly back from Europe on the Friday after accepting, had Saturday & Sunday to study the script and then was in Cardiff on Monday afternoon. So the whole thing was pretty mental. That does tally with rumour people, who were 100% correct in everything else they said about the episode, even down to Baker playing "The Curator" - who said that Eccleston actually had a wobble and fucked them over at the last minute. I believe it, really.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
They could have always used McGann. That would have been a perfectly suitable replacement option which wouldn't have required a massive rewriting of continuity.
It would have been a pretty massive rewrite of the 8th Doctor's personality to have him be the one who committed double genocide.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Meh, all the above is completely worth it for getting Hurt as The Doctor.
Seriously, who cares? Rewriting continuity is as much a part of Doctor Who as The Doctor is.
I didn't really think the special started that well though. I think that's a problem Moffat is starting to have, he can never seem to have a good intro to the stories he tells anymore. Once they get to the museum it's very good, but everything before that is just dumb. I mean, a helicopter lifting the TARDIS? Why?? The in-episode explanation was stupid"We didn't think you were in it". Well, if you didn't think he was in it, what was the point! Were you just going to leave the Doctor stranded in the middle of nowhere with no way to get the the museum? Just a stupid way to have Eleven hang off the TARDIS.
The shapeshifter plot was okay, it had an interesting ending, but I didn't get the "Shhh" one of the assistants made to the other when she handed her clone her inhaler. It seemed like something important would happen after that, but that plot thread was never returned to.
I'm also not sure Clara's inclusion and importance was earned. This mostly stems from the fact that she has had no background what-so-ever and she hardly feels very important, despite the Doctor saying she is. I could get Rose or Amy or even Rory (especially Rory) being there and telling the three Doctors that they are idiots for blowing up Gallifrey, but with with Clara it just felt... unearned.
John Hurt, laser gun, "No More". God that was dumb.
I wish Eccelston had returned, it certainly seemed odd that he wasn't there. I kept thinking "aren't you guys missing one?"
Maybe it doesn't seem like I enjoyed it after all that, but I really did. Smith and Tennant are great together, and I loved Hurt calling them out for being stupid all the time. It was entertaining, and I don't really care about the show's continuity so I don't have a problem there.
The shapeshifter plot was okay, it had an interesting ending, but I didn't get the "Shhh" one of the assistants made to the other when she handed her clone her inhaler. It seemed like something important would happen after that, but that plot thread was never returned to.
I'm also not sure Clara's inclusion and importance was earned. This mostly stems from the fact that she has had no background what-so-ever and she hardly feels very important, despite the Doctor saying she is. I could get Rose or Amy or even Rory (especially Rory) being there and telling the three Doctors that they are idiots for blowing up Gallifrey, but with with Clara it just felt... unearned.
John Hurt, laser gun, "No More". God that was dumb.
I wish Eccelston had returned, it certainly seemed odd that he wasn't there. I kept thinking "aren't you guys missing one?"
Maybe it doesn't seem like I enjoyed it after all that, but I really did. Smith and Tennant are great together, and I loved Hurt calling them out for being stupid all the time. It was entertaining, and I don't really care about the show's continuity so I don't have a problem there.
APZonerunner
Member
"Never Cruel or Cowardly" is actually an old Terrance Dicks quote that appeared in one of the internal BBC manuals about how to write the show & how the Doctor should be. It was cool to hear it in this context!
Regarding dark plotlines and whatever, you're right that the stuff with Melody is actually really dark and comparable to other dark stuff in the series, but the problem with that particular line for me is that Amy's reaction is so... I dunno, comic book? She acts like an actual person would for the end of AGMGTW, and then the next time we see her it's all cute jokes and making crop circles and Hitler in the cupboard and the cringey, unbelievable delivery (not Karen's fault) of "Doctor, where's Melody? You said you'd find her!" like she's talking about a lost purse. I've seen people more traumatised over losing pets, and that's her CHILD. And then suddenly the fact she grew up with her daughter makes it all okay and, christ, at a character level it isn't grounded in any sort of reality whatsoever.
No matter how many layers of sci-fi bullshit there were on top, no matter about the awful prosthetic beetle, or the CGI reaper, when Donna stood in that circle of mirrors and realized she was going to die, or when Rose finally got to be with her father as he died, blah, blah, it was much more emotionally grounded underneath whatever sci-fi BS was going on. I find so much of the lost daughter plot completely unrelateable simply because of how mellow Amy & Rory seem to take it. Rory a bit less so, admittedly; Arthur does some really nice, subtle work considering he doesn't have many lines on that subject matter, but still. The darkness doesn't just come from what happens, but how it plays off those around.
I think a lot of dark emotional stuff happens to the Doctor in Moffat's version of Who, and I think in the case of the Doctor he handles it deftly and often quite wonderfully, really. I do thin the universe in general is a kinder place - a bit too kind, perhaps - under him, though. One of the darkest, best things about Last of the Time Lords is at the end of it all the Doctor does is seal away the humans at the end of the universe - so they still cannibalize themselves, destroy their own humanity. It's incredibly dark when you think about it, especially in the concept of them going to Utopia - going to the call the Master set up to manipulate them (and his earlier self!). The Doctor's timeline is entwined with events, he can't stop it, and those people always die. In Parting of the Ways the Doctor's hesitation sees entire continents of Earth melt away in front of him, and there's nothing he can do to undo that decision and save those lives. Even Rose only bought back Jack. There's a lot less of those moments now, because Moffat does write a kinder universe.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
The Eighth Doctor lived for hundreds of years and was always winding up with amnesia; I don't think it would have required that massive a rewrite. Especially since we already knew that it was something that happened in the Doctor's life. I don't have an impossible time imagining any Doctor could have done that while in the Time War.
A lot of people had believed since 2005 that McGann's Doctor was the one who ended the war.
I find it sort of interesting for someone to rip into the characterization of the Doctor in modern Who when the very nature of the character is that his characterization changes generation to generation. Yes, he's essentially the same person, but his behaviors, mannerisms, and attitudes can shift pretty widely. Eleven likes to talk big? That's part of his character - he wants to be cooler than he actually is; in fact, I think Matt Smith has specifically stated that about this Doctor.
The fact that many, many people tend to go along with it? Yeah. That's what happens when they find out the guy has beaten the Daleks and god knows what else at least semi-regularly going on hundreds of years. His posturing is bombastic? Again, that's part of his characterization.
So, in that sense, I could see someone saying that they don't like the Eleventh Doctor... hell, I didn't like the Ninth... but saying the creative team is 'missing the point' of the character... Frankly, it sounds like the person saying that is missing the point of the Doctor. He regenerates, it's a new ballgame.
If the next Doctor is the same way, then yes, I could totally understand the assertion that it's become a bit much. For now? That's just Eleven.
The fact that many, many people tend to go along with it? Yeah. That's what happens when they find out the guy has beaten the Daleks and god knows what else at least semi-regularly going on hundreds of years. His posturing is bombastic? Again, that's part of his characterization.
So, in that sense, I could see someone saying that they don't like the Eleventh Doctor... hell, I didn't like the Ninth... but saying the creative team is 'missing the point' of the character... Frankly, it sounds like the person saying that is missing the point of the Doctor. He regenerates, it's a new ballgame.
If the next Doctor is the same way, then yes, I could totally understand the assertion that it's become a bit much. For now? That's just Eleven.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm not going to speak for Kuwabara here as my issues aren't exactly the same as his, but while I can appreciate on some level that the writers are very aware and specifically writing Smith's Doctor to be overly bombastic and clearly trying too hard to be cool and "quirky" and badass because he's desperate for the approval of his companions, I feel like that irony is completely lost on a huge segment of the fanbase
APZonerunner
Member
Jenna let slip something about Smith's regeneration on UK radio it seems - the pair were doing an interview, and she commented to Matt about how uncomfortable he was
spending so much time in a harness when filming his regeneration. So know this -- he's probably not going standing up!
Which does tally with the rumours that it's going to be an even more explosive regen than the End of Time!
Which does tally with the rumours that it's going to be an even more explosive regen than the End of Time!
The Fight Club Effect
peanutbutterlatte
Member
You absolutely can't please everyone all the time though. It's like how some people thought Tennant bowing out in End of Time was whiny. Different people are going to view different Doctors differently. It's hardly expected that you'll like all 13 actors interpretation of a particular character, but that's okay, because in 4 years it'll be someone else.
Well, it's not lost on me. I think it's hilarious. He reminds me of guys I went to school with who were always shocked that they weren't as well respected in real life as they were in Dungeons & Dragons. Only, the Doctor has the pedigree to make people buy into his shit even when he's, on some level, bluffing. Frankly, I think it sort of backfired with the Melody scenario, but by and large it's probably diminished the number of fights he's had to contend with.
But yes, honestly... If the new Doctor behaves in the exact same way, even I'll be disappointed, because I definitely see that as a trait specific to Eleven.
Smelly Tramp
Member
True, however just because it's in a character's nature to act a certain way doesn't make it any less annoying for the viewer. Like in LOST, I could understand Michael being a wreck after he lost Walt, but when every scene he's in he's just shouting WAAAALLLT & THEY TOOK MA BOY, it's annoying and not great to watch.
I do think it gets a bit much, and it's not like it didn't happen in seasons 1-4, but it certainly happens way more nowadays, and i say that as a big fan of Matt Smith!
But I don't really think Eleven is cool. Ten was "cool". Cool to the point that Eleven calls him Mr. Cool in this episode. Eleven is goofy, but his laid-back, fun-loving persona is balanced out with how incredibly tired he is. In Closing Time, while holding baby Alfie, Eleven even says that, "I'm old, so old." He's like an old man spliced with a young, and it sets him apart from cool guy Ten and jerkass Nine.
Having just marathoned the show, though, there's a surprising amount of consistency between his personalities in the reboot. Nine, Ten, and Eleven get pretty racist toward humans when angered by them. Nine displays it by calling them stupid apes, whereas Eleven sticks with just a sort of superior attitude "don't ever presume to think for me" and "no human has anything worth saying to me today." All of them have that depressed "I killed the Time Lords but the Daleks keep surviving" attitude going on, and each of them hides their pain and guilt behind a goofy man in a box facade. We don't really see Nine do this, but Ten and Eleven both have a lot of guilt over what they've done to their companions.
It's to the point, really, where in Eleven's run half of his relationship with Amy is making sure she's not turning into a soldier or in mortal peril or completely messed up. His fear of losing her in any way is the overwhelming descriptor of their relationship, and when Clara rolls around he's not so obsessed with running into the same girl again and again as he is keeping her from dying again and again. He asks her things like "Do you feel safe with me?" and during Journey to the Center of the TARDIS he's all broken up that he let her die again.
I dunno, sometimes I feel that people who know the older show ride the newer one too hard. Maybe they're right to, maybe this is the Prequel Trilogy of Doctor Who, but I dunno. As far as I can tell, since Eccleston to Smith the show has only improved.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
To be honest, I just don't feel like it works because the production betrays any attempt at doing this. It's mostly the way they use the music that sells any attempt at trying to subvert it short, because they're saying one thing, but then at the same time having the music and direction portraying the Doctor as being cool for doing all of these bombastic things.
If "I am the Doctor" didn't exist, it would be a lot easier for them to actually sell the idea that we shouldn't believe that the Doctor is actually some badass action hero who really is 'cool'. What we have, I feel like, is an attempt by Moffat to have his cake and eat it too. He portrays the Doctor as being increasingly bombastic, badass and epic in scale, complete with having all these musical cues build up around it, and the direction centered around making the Doctor look awesome, but then has people try to say "oh no, that's not actually a good thing", but it doesn't actually feel like it means anything. Especially when he just turns around and does it again. Had all of that stopped after A Good Man Goes to War, it might be possible to buy this as a reasonable conclusion (that the Doctor becoming a big deal and acting like a badass was a 'bad thing'), but the production continues to deify the Doctor more and more as it goes on.
Yeah, but like I said, I'm not suggesting that people have to love every version of the Doctor. I even don't. You're going to get some you connect with and some you don't. That's what makes a new Doctor a source of both excitement and anxiety - 'cause you don't know what you're going to get.
I think the excess has bothered me a bit, but I also don't feel that's out of character for Eleven. By his very nature, he is loud and raucous. I'm sure you could find people who have real issues with any previous Doctor, particularly ones with little quirks that maybe escalated further as time went on.
EDIT: "I Am the Doctor" is the theme music Eleven hears in his head whenever he's doing something he thinks is supremely impressive or clever. In fact, hasn't he hummed it once or twice in Smith's run?
googleplex
Member
Geronimo!
Allons-y!
Oh for gods sake, Gallifrey stands!
Allons-y!
Oh for gods sake, Gallifrey stands!
I seriously fan-girl'd out at that part.
Future Foundation
Member
Who are these wonderful rumor people, is it GB?
Snytbaggen
Member
I took some screencaps from the ending shots
The quality isn't the best, but I did what I could. The top one is my new phone background.
The quality isn't the best, but I did what I could. The top one is my new phone background.
APZonerunner
Member
Yeah. Some of the same people have also given a frighteningly detailed early description of Christmas which, based on the 11 second trailer, also appears to be bang on so far.
Moffat and everyone have been very nice and things about Eccleston in interviews, but that's surely just so they don't ruin a potential relationship further down the line. Do think Tennant's "it'd be churlish to not do it," comment in an interview last week was basically a dig at him, though.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What episode is Eccleston's "for my next trick" clip from?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Argh I lost my bluff. Figured those Christmas rumors were bullshit and thus, read every one of them :\
APZonerunner
Member
Parting of the Ways. Flying towards the Dalek ships; "But the TARDIS has no defences, you're gonna kill him!" He uses the extrapolator to make a force field, and then "...And for my next trick...!" he materializes around Rose.
I think they even zoomed the shot in a bit as you'd be able to make out Jack off to the side otherwise.
In the Virgin series of 7th Doctor novels they introduced the idea that his previous incarnations live on in his mind (And in certain circumstances can be communicated with). It's very heavily implied that his future incarnations are going to lock him in the "Room with no doors" for the shit he pulls and boy in that series does he pull some shit
Choppasmith
Member
Oh, almost forgot, I'm not a nitpicky but did anyone notice how in the beginning when the Tardis crashes into the Daleks it uses a stock "flying in space" shot that I'm near certain was used in a previous episode? Amongst all the good FX shots, it seemed kinda funny. Unless it was intentional and I was just missing something.
Future Foundation
Member
I read that one, too. I was surprised at how correct everything appears to look so far.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
I still can't believe they snuck in wax Tom from the Five Doctors.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I thought the shot from the back was pretty cool. And then they cut to the reverse, and I was like "So, how did this effect ge-- IS THAT THE FUCKING WAXWORK TOM BAKER?"
And then the shot ended and I was like "well, what are you gonna do, I guess."
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
So tell me if I got this right.
The Curator is a future incarnation of the Doctor choosing to appear as an aged version of the Fourth Doctor.
The Power of the Cloud™
If there was one potential plot point that was faulty it had to do with the sonics, they were doing a calculation for hundreds of years. Yet Eleven actually fried the tenth's sonic early in his adventures and then got his new one. So it wasn't just a new casing as Hurt says unless the sonics always link up with the Tardis to keep information up to date.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Why are you spoilering that?
And yes. That's what he is. A future version of the Doctor retires, becomes The Curator, and tells his former self that he's been spending time in the museum, relaxing, going through some of the older favorites.
It very much suggests that The Doctor not only cracks the 12 regenerations limit, but can recycle older regenerations at will.
Which is a fun little detail that absolutely doesn't need to be pursued or answered for quite a long time. It's future proofed pretty well, actually.
Yeah, I thought the same thing, but I guess that's why the emphasis on SOFTWARE during those discussions. I'm betting your explanation is the one that would be used if Moffat gets grilled on that at a convention or whatever.
And yes. That's what he is. A future version of the Doctor retires, becomes The Curator, and tells his former self that he's been spending time in the museum, relaxing, going through some of the older favorites.
It very much suggests that The Doctor not only cracks the 12 regenerations limit, but can recycle older regenerations at will.
Which is a fun little detail that absolutely doesn't need to be pursued or answered for quite a long time. It's future proofed pretty well, actually.
Yeah, I thought the same thing, but I guess that's why the emphasis on SOFTWARE during those discussions. I'm betting your explanation is the one that would be used if Moffat gets grilled on that at a convention or whatever.
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