Support NeoGAF

[MrFunSocks]

If people actually believe that the XSX is going to be cheaper than the PS5, they got a big surprise coming. The XSS exists for a reason. And it's not because MS is going price the XSX at $349-$399. The best case scenario is that MS matches the price of the PS5 Disk edition, which I'm guessing will be $449-$499. Personally, I think it will be $50-$100 more expensive.

The Series S exists to vastly undercut the PS5 and Series X, not because the X will be vastly more expensive than the PS5.

Unless Sony want to eat a big loss on the digital edition up front, it won't be more than $50 cheaper than the PS5 because it's literally just missing a cheap disk drive. The series S however is supposedly a cheaper GPU, less RAM, and will need less cooling as well (and could also be missing a disk drive) so it has far more potential for a bigger price gap.

 

[ZywyPL]

So RDNA is an old architecture like GCN? LMAO, RDNA is completely different from GCN, RDNA and RDNA 2 share the same architecture, one is updated with a new set of features but should behave the same.

Actually, RDNA1 is an upgraded GCN, and RDNA2 is said to be completely new architecture, completely free from GCN legacy and its flaws.

 

[Redlight]

One more thing, wondering if you all noticed it: EVERYTIME a shitty thing is happening to Xbox (like delaying Halo Infinite in this case), some wild bullshit rumours appear that spread FUD about PS5.

You mean like how...

Digital Foundry: Developers Having Difficult Time Scaling games back to PS4/Xbox One specs

According to Digital Foundry's John Linneman he has talked to multiple developers who have said no one wants to work on the under powered Jaguar CPU's any longer. Says it's a painful process. That was followed up by a post from Liza Shulyayeva who is a programmer and formally worked ad DICE...

www.neogaf.com

turned up a few hours after this thread?

 

[Jason28]

You mean like how...

Digital Foundry: Developers Having Difficult Time Scaling games back to PS4/Xbox One specs

According to Digital Foundry's John Linneman he has talked to multiple developers who have said no one wants to work on the under powered Jaguar CPU's any longer. Says it's a painful process. That was followed up by a post from Liza Shulyayeva who is a programmer and formally worked ad DICE...

www.neogaf.com

Are you fucking kidding me, or what ? John talks about Jaguar (in both consoles) is holding back next-gen games, it doesn't have to do with a specific platformholder.

 

[Redlight]

Are you fucking kidding me, or what ? John talks about Jaguar (in both consoles) is holding back next-gen games, it doesn't have to do with a specific platformholder.

Sorry, did I break your baseless tin-foil hat conspiracy theory?

That thread title is advertising bad news for Xbox, not both systems (even though the content doesn't justify it) and it's a thread started just hours after a thread that contained bad news for PS5.

Just like your conspiracy theory but in reverse. What, does the theory seem stupid now?

 

[Rickyiez]

Fraud Golem

 

[MrFunSocks]

Are you fucking kidding me, or what ? John talks about Jaguar (in both consoles) is holding back next-gen games, it doesn't have to do with a specific platformholder.

Yet the entire thread specifically left that little detail of the PS4 holding back the PS5 as well out and focussed 100% on saying that the Xbox One is holding back the Series X and that is the reason why we apparently haven't seen any X games.

You really don't see that?

 

[Kamina]

Yet the entire thread specifically left that little detail of the PS4 holding back the PS5 as well out and focussed 100% on saying that the Xbox One is holding back the Series X and that is the reason why we apparently haven't seen any X games.

You really don't see that?

I dont remember Sony ever saying that they will follow the same strategy as MS, which is cross gen.

 

[thismeinteil]

The Series S exists to vastly undercut the PS5 and Series X, not because the X will be vastly more expensive than the PS5.

Unless Sony want to eat a big loss on the digital edition up front, it won't be more than $50 cheaper than the PS5 because it's literally just missing a cheap disk drive. The series S however is supposedly a cheaper GPU, less RAM, and will need less cooling as well (and could also be missing a disk drive) so it has far more potential for a bigger price gap.

The point is, MS wouldn't have to undercut their own system if they were actually going to release for ~$399. A price point that the PS4 proved to be very acceptable to gamers. So, people who think that the XSX is going to be cheaper than the PS5 are just fooling themselves.

 

[Jason28]

Yet the entire thread specifically left that little detail of the PS4 holding back the PS5 as well out and focussed 100% on saying that the Xbox One is holding back the Series X and that is the reason why we apparently haven't seen any X games.

You really don't see that?

Is this a joke post ? Ask your questions to the OP that made that thread, the fact is John is not spreading FUD, he is saying that the old jaguar (from both consoles) is holding back developers and it'a a pain in the ass.
Jezz and DuskGolem are spreading FUD about PS5 (series x much more powerful/cheaper than PS5).

 

[Jboemios]

Lol

What a retard post.

I am Sorry.

Do you realize that First Ps5 vídeo presentstion with Cerny was directed to devs who obviously have much more knlowledge than we do. Do You think Cerny would straight lie to the devs community wich have been building great conection since PS4 Project?

Yes, he would. He work for sony

 

[Jason28]

That thread title is advertising bad news for Xbox, not both systems (even though the content doesn't justify it) and it's a thread started just hours after a thread that contained bad news for PS5.

Just like your conspiracy theory but in reverse. What, does the theory seem stupid now?

Same for you, John is not spreading FUD, go and ask OP your silly questions.

 

[MrFunSocks]

I dont remember Sony ever saying that they will follow the same strategy as MS, which is cross gen.

But Ms didn't say their strategy is cross gen either, just that all their first party games for 2 years will be, and that's true because apparently the only first party game releasing in the next 2 years is infinite.

The tweet is about THIRD PARTY DEVS CHOOSING TO MAKE CROSS GEN GAMES LIKE THEY DO AT THE START OF EVERY GENERATION. Microsoft and Sony both have the same policy there - do whatever you want.

 

[Gavon West]

Both consoles will struggle at native 4k without some kind of scaling. But its been known for months that series X has the power advantage and it will obviously make a difference. To think otherwise is willful ignorance.

I'll take that bet. People said the same thing with the One X. Not only did we see Native 4K, 1st party games saw 4K/60fps. You're saying a console 4x more powerful than the One X is going to struggle with 4K????

 

[pawel86ck]

TBH XSX is probably more powerful but that doesn't paint the whole picture. PS2 was less powerful than OGXB and... well, you know how that turned out.

The only thing Sony needs to be careful with is pricing.

Still, I hope Microsoft really puts up a fight.

Xbox classic started from nothing, but thanks to the power advantage (and games proving it) more and more people started to buy xbox consoles. Personally when I bought xbox classic I immediately forgot about my PS2 because the difference in graphics or performance was just too big. Xbox classic build solid ground for X360.

Power advantage will always remain important factor, but the thing is games have to show it.

 

[BurnCoalMeltPole]

I'll take that bet. People said the same thing with the One X. Not only did we see Native 4K, 1st party games saw 4K/60fps. You're saying a console 4x more powerful than the One X is going to struggle with 4K????

It really depends upon how the GPU is used. By using up scaling techniques, more power can be directed towards effects, simulation, and other GPGPU tasks. Actually, it is pretty wasteful to prioritize the pushing of pixels.

4K is 3840x2160 = 8294400 pixels
2K is 2560x1440 = 3686400 pixels

4K takes 2.25x more work than 2K for perhaps a negligible visual difference, especially if a low cost up scaling technique like checkerboarding or DLSS is used. Some people might consider upscaled 4K to be 'fake 4K', but I expect it to by very common in order to push the visuals in other areas.

Another option is to render at 2K, and then just upscale to QHD+ (1800p), and then just let the TV scale the rest of the way to 4K. And if the upscaling technique is good enough, why not dynamically scale between 1080p and 1440p?

So, developers will have plenty of options if they decide to put the available power to better use.

 

[A.Romero]

Xbox classic started from nothing, but thanks to the power advantage (and games proving it) more and more people started to buy xbox consoles. Personally when I bought xbox classic I immediately forgot about my PS2 because the difference in graphics or performance was just too big. Xbox classic build solid ground for X360.

Power advantage will always remain important factor, but the thing is games have to show it.

I'm not saying it wasn't a competent console (I enjoyed mine a lot), still it wasn't a market leader.

A 15-20% power advantage is nothing without the right software. Basically, as far as we have seen there is nothing XSX offers that shows off that power difference. If might as well not be there.

 

[replicant-]

The DF comment sections on Eurogamer and YT are going to be fun when next gen kicks off.

 

[pawel86ck]

I'm not saying it wasn't a competent console (I enjoyed mine a lot), still it wasn't a market leader.

A 15-20% power advantage is nothing without the right software. Basically, as far as we have seen there is nothing XSX offers that shows off that power difference. If might as well not be there.

Playstation brand was too strong, so it was impossible to dethrone it right away, however xbox classic won with nintendo (gamecube) and sega (dreamcast).

MS build stronger console this time around but software wise they just cant compete with Sony exclusives. Sony will have Horizon 2, Demon Souls Remake, Ratchet and Clank, Spider Man, but there are no real exlusives that would convince people to buy XSX instead of upgrading their PC, and not to mention MS console exclusives will either disappoint (halo infinite), or launch few years from now. I'm afraid XSX can be the last xbox console from MS.

 

[geordiemp]

From other site, Golem FUD has been debunked and he is gone.

First Sony engineer on this subject

Then matt chimes in

What FUD is next up ?

 

[BurnCoalMeltPole]

Actually, RDNA1 is an upgraded GCN, and RDNA2 is said to be completely new architecture, completely free from GCN legacy and its flaws.

No, RDNA is not an upgraded GCN; it is a new architecture. RDNA 2 makes some performance improvements to generation 1, and adds features like VRS and ray tracing

The RDNA compute units are redesigned for improved single-threaded performance and offer better efficiency compared to the older GCN units. The IPC performance in RDNA is much higher at 1, which is around 0.25 in GCN, which can be experienced especially in gaming.

In GCN architecture, one instruction is issued every 4 cycles, but RDNA issues one instruction every 1 cycle, which is a more efficient way to handle simple instructions and it improves efficiency.

Wavefront is a fundamental group of work or a group of operations executed on a single SIMD. In GCN architecture the size of a wavefront is of 64 threads (Wave64), but RDNA architecture supports the wavefront size of both 32 threads (Wave32) and 64 threads. The smaller sized wavefront (Wave32) in RDNA helps in reducing clock cycles and improves single-threaded performance, especially in games.

In GCN, compute units (CU) forms the basic shader entity that contains ALUs, LDS and memory access. In RDNA, the workgroup processor (WGP) forms the basic unit of shader hardware and one workgroup processor contains 2 compute units. This way more compute power and memory bandwidth can be directed to the single workgroup to enhance the performance.

RDNA has introduced a new L1 cache hierarchy that reduces the cache latency at each level, doubles the load bandwidth from L0 to ALU and improves effective bandwidth. This also results in lower power consumption. Now, for the same power, 50% more work can be done which is a major improvement in performance.

RDNA vs Navi vs GCN: What is the Difference & What they Mean?

NAVI vs RDNA vs GCN Differences and What they mean for AMD graphics cards. GCN stands for Graphics Core Next and is the architecture used by AMD for most of their graphics cards right from the Oland, Cape Verde, Pitcairn, Tahiti GPU chips to the modern-day Vega GPU chips. RDNA or Radeon DNA is...

graphicscardhub.com

 

[BlueXImpulse]

From other site, Golem FUD has been debunked and he is gone.

First Sony engineer on this subject

Then matt chimes in

What FUD is next up ?

I love how Matt ended that 9.2 FUD instantly with a no. It's not looking good boys.

 

[GiJoint]

Sounding really dumb here but because the PS5 has less overhead than say my 2080 Super equipped PC, shouldn't devs be able to get more out of it?

I'm honestly not that fussed in the end, PS5 will be a day one for me. That first party line up Sony has equipped is just too good and I am completely on board with their generational philosophy.

 

[martino]

Sounding really dumb here but because the PS5 has less overhead than say my 2080 Super equipped PC, shouldn't devs be able to get more out of it?

Are you saying Jensen Huang is lying ? i mean he is a microprocessor designer and is behind the best GPU hardware for now
/s

 

[Thirty7ven]

It is known that the XSX is the more powerful of the two, I don't see anybody denying that except for the small handfull of delusional usual suspects that try to turn and twist in every corner they possibly can. They will be in for a rude awakening I reckon when all third party games inevitably play better on XSX.

Sorry? Play better? Think you got your wires crossed here. Looking slightly better doesn't mean it will either play best or be the best version, sorry to break it to you.

 

[GiJoint]

Are you saying Jensen Huang is lying ? i mean he is a microprocessor designer and is behind the best GPU hardware for now
/s

Well...at least he has a damn nice leather jacket in that picture

 

[bad guy]

PS5 probably gets the faulty XSX chips where the broken CUs are deactivated

 

[GiJoint]

PS5 probably gets the faulty XSX chips where the broken CUs are deactivated

Bro...hide

 

[pawel86ck]

From other site, Golem FUD has been debunked and he is gone.

First Sony engineer on this subject

Then matt chimes in

What FUD is next up ?

What about this screenshot?

15-25% resolution advantage sounds about right, so if you believe Matt you should believe Dusk Golem as well because both have said literally the same thing. Some multiplatform games will run at 4K native on XSX and dynamic 4K on PS5, dont you agree with Matt?

 

[Thirty7ven]

15-25% resolution advantage sounds about right, so if you believe Matt you should believe Dusk Golem as well because both have said literally the same thing. Some multiplatform games will run at 4K native on XSX and dynamic 4K on PS5, dont you agree with Matt?

But that's not just what Dusk was saying was it?

That's what he ended bargaining for. And a 20% Rez difference is nothing these days and next gen will be even less with the amount of post processing work being done. Diminishing returns creeped hard this gen and will creep even harder next gen.

 

[DinoD]

This generation. MS lost U.S /U.K mostly because they launched weaker system at $100 more. If weaker PS5 comes out at ~ $100 more, you may potentially see the similar thing. U.S console market seems to be very price sensitive. Given that both platforms will likely support previous generation games, services and 3rd party peripherals, the cost of leaving the ecosystem may be greater than savings on purchasing cheaper console. Then there's the king content. It would probably take a corporate seppuku (PS5 turns out to be biggest piece of turd) for Sony to loose Europe, Asia and Australia.

We shall zee.

 

[pawel86ck]

But that's not just what Dusk was saying was it?

That's what he ended bargaining for. And a 20% Rez difference is nothing these days and next gen will be even less with the amount of post processing work being done. Diminishing returns creeped hard this gen and will creep even harder next gen.

I'm not familiar with his every tweet, but Dusk Golem tweets linked in this thread mention exactly the same scenario for multiplatform games (4K native on XSX and 4K dynamic on PS5). Of course he mentioned RE8 has some bigger problems right now but only because game isnt optimized, so he expect dynamic 4K as well.

 

[geordiemp]

What about this screenshot?

15-25% resolution advantage sounds about right, so if you believe Matt you should believe Dusk Golem as well because both have said literally the same thing. Some multiplatform games will run at 4K native on XSX and dynamic 4K on PS5, dont you agree with Matt?

Try reading all of it ...

• You will see titles that are 20, 25 % in favour of XSX,
• Titles that are same resolution and run the same
• Titles that favour and run better on ps5'

I agree with Matt, all options are possible, XSX better, Same, Ps5 better on a game by game basis. As no games are finished yet, its all open and all possible.

• I am in the 5 -10 % better on XSX camp for last gen games (15 % TF - abstract api effect).
• Open world heavy streaming next gen 5-10 % better on ps5 (IO efficiency effect on frame time).
• Sony first party will be miles ahead and use every Ps5 efficiency and customisation to full effect.

But thats just my guess, same as most posters until we see finished games.

 

[ZywyPL]

Another option is to render at 2K, and then just upscale to QHD+ (1800p), and then just let the TV scale the rest of the way to 4K. And if the upscaling technique is good enough, why not dynamically scale between 1080p and 1440p?

Upscaling of an upscaling of an upscaling...

No, just... no. I cannot imagine how many details would've been lost by going through several passes of different upscaling techniques. We already saw 1440p with CBR in action multiple times, it looks really nice, so why experiment? Just bump it to 1620/1800p and we're set to go, that's 55/70% of 4K respectively, so a lot of performance saved, and it would look even better than 1440p we have today.

 

[pasterpl]

One more thing, wondering if you all noticed it: EVERYTIME a shitty thing is happening to Xbox (like delaying Halo Infinite in this case), some wild bullshit rumours appear that spread FUD about PS5.

this is actually funny, there are multiple threads created to just bash ms and Xbox, Craig memes are all over this forum, Sony representation on this forum is much bigger that Xbox representation in here, and it is easily noticeable.

havent you noticed that eg. DF is bad when it criticise anything Sony related but good when it is having go at Xbox? There are even whole threads dedicated to that. any rumour that is negative re. Ps5 is obviously coming from paid shills while any positive rumour is obviously true. Most of neogaf members in gaming forums are Sony biased and this is fine, but Please stop whining.

 

[cerealbuster]

From other site, Golem FUD has been debunked and he is gone.

First Sony engineer on this subject

Dunno about Mat so I don't want to discredit anything he says, but "Brand Marketing Specialist at Sony" tells me that the device his company sells is not worse (in whichever terms you want) than the rival company, is not something I would take as a fact.

 

[pawel86ck]

Try reading all of it ...

• You will see titles that are 20, 25 % in favour of XSX,
• Titles that are same resolution and run the same
• Titles that favour and run better on ps5'

I agree with Matt, all options are possible, XSX better, Same, Ps5 better on a game by game basis. As no games are finished yet, its all open and all possible.

I am in the 5 -10 % better on XSX camp for last gen games (15 % TF - abstract api effect).
Open world 5-10 better on ps5 (IO efficiency effect on frame time).

But tahst just my guess, same as most posters until we see finished games.

These 2 additional points are just a common sense. They will be less demanding games for sure (like fifa for example) that will run the same on both consoles, and there will be also games that will run better on PS5 for whatever reason.

 

[geordiemp]

Dunno about Mat so I don't want to discredit anything he says, but "Brand Marketing Specialist at Sony" tells me that the device his company sells is not worse (in whichever terms you want) than the rival company, is not something I would take as a fact.

Believe what you want, Sony engineer and Matt (third party dev) or a you tuber (which one, Dusk Golem, RGT, Moores law is dead) there are lots to choose from on both sides lol.

 

[Handy Fake]

Am I right in thinking that a 25% resolution difference is less than half a step between 2k and 4k..?

 

[geordiemp]

These 2 additional points are just a common sense. They will be less demanding games for sure (like fifa for example) that will run the same on both consoles, and there will be also games that will run better on PS5 for whatever reason.

Your getting there...

XSX has more TF, abstract APIs great for back compatability, has a small performance cost.
XSX is more standard RDNA2 most likely, so will benefit from PC / DX12 ease of transfer

Ps5 has faster GPU GHz, has effect on Caches, Pixel fill rate, GPU stuff other than shading
Ps5 has direct apis, eeeks out a bit more performance, head ache for BC
Ps5 is more custom, even Geomtry engine, might need more love to get that efficiency

So its all up in the air performance wise, some games like a pC port will hammer ps5, some games ground up using ps5 custom stuff will likely run nicer on Ps5. And there are games where devs will just ship same as its easier.

Game on.

 

[Mr. PlayStation]

Where's the evidence of this?



One of the engineers who helped make PS5 asked the above question, and Golem disappeared nowhere to be seen.

golem ran with tail between his legs. Did you see golem's response? Mr Fud spreader was trying to play victim card and trying to gain sympathy. pannada fellow

 

[Allandor]

...
Ps5 has faster GPU GHz, has effect on Caches, Pixel fill rate, GPU stuff other than shading
...

We should really ignore this one for now, at least until we know how the customized TMUs, ROPs, etc look on the consoles (it makes no sense to add more CUs but leave the rest as it is). And btw, yes, faster cache is a good thing, but on the other hand more of it is also not bad . And all the things of the GPU go up and down with the clock-rate. It will be really hard to optimize for something like this, at least if you want to max it out.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

What about this screenshot?

15-25% resolution advantage sounds about right, so if you believe Matt you should believe Dusk Golem as well because both have said literally the same thing. Some multiplatform games will run at 4K native on XSX and dynamic 4K on PS5, dont you agree with Matt?

Dusk seems to think there's going to be 60% - 80% difference in resolution as a guess. He really has no idea what he's talking about

 

[geordiemp]

We should really ignore this one for now, at least until we know how the customized TMUs, ROPs, etc look on the consoles (it makes no sense to add more CUs but leave the rest as it is). And btw, yes, faster cache is a good thing, but on the other hand more of it is also not bad . And all the things of the GPU go up and down with the clock-rate. It will be really hard to optimize for something like this, at least if you want to max it out.

No it will not, PC has had variable clocks for years.

We do need more info on all the cstomisations including Cerny ./ Naughty dog patent and the custom Geometry engine, we dont even have ROP numbers yet. Lets see shall we, not long now.

Ps5 power looks promising, so there is something Sony are doing right

 

[MilkyJoe]

18% GPU gap (PS5\XsX)*

vs

40% GPU gap (PS4/XB1)


*peak

ftfy

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

I love how Matt ended that 9.2 FUD instantly with a no. It's not looking good boys.

this <<matt>> was also saying that series s got cancelled, so excuse me for not taking his monoword replies as something to keep in mind.
"no" , "not at all" , and apparently thats enough for some really gullible guys

 

[DForce]

ftfy

PlayStation 4 - Xbox One - 40.46%
Xbox One X - PlayStation 4 Pro - 42.86%
Xbox Series X - PlayStation 5 - 17.96%

 

[Kamina]

But Ms didn't say their strategy is cross gen either, just that all their first party games for 2 years will be, and that's true because apparently the only first party game releasing in the next 2 years is infinite.

The tweet is about THIRD PARTY DEVS CHOOSING TO MAKE CROSS GEN GAMES LIKE THEY DO AT THE START OF EVERY GENERATION. Microsoft and Sony both have the same policy there - do whatever you want.

Upgrading PS4 developed games to PS5 during the crossover period isnt holding back PS5, let alone native PS5 games.
Developing XSX games together with current gen however is almost certainly holding them back with their first party titles, as seen with Halo.

 

[FranXico]

That's now how it's measured.

Round the numbers to 2TF and 1TF.

PS4 would have DOUBLE the amount of TF compared to the Xbox One.


Even though PS5 has two less TF than XSX, it's not anywhere near 50% less in TF count.

You don't know how scaling works, which is why you're comparing these two figures. Comparing GTX 2070 Super vs GTX 2080 Super gap is around 20% and the performance gap is not big at all.

These are the facts.

It's pointless. They don't care about how these things really work. Not even simple maths matters. Well, only the "greater than" relationship matters: bigger number GOOD, smaller number BAD.

Never before have I seen people so proudly doubling down on their own ignorance like this.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

2TF vs 0.5TF. If something needs 1TF more power than the PS5 has it doesn't matter what the percentage difference is, just how much power there is.

Just stop this is embarrassing lmao