Duane Cunningham
Member
Darth Vader's design inspiration, in part:
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LTTP: Star Wars 1-7 (Mainly Prequels-TFA)
- Thread starter DarkLordMalik
- Start date
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BudokaiMR2
Member
You have to frame these things in their settings though.
At the time of the OT the Empire was shown as being the status quo and was already in power. They didn't have to recruit. The galaxy was theirs for the taking already.
In TFA they are recovering from a major whupping from the Rebellion and are basically a shadow of their former self. It makes a lot of sense to push the patriotism stuff to the next level for recruiting and morale purposes.
At least to me, when you frame it like that it makes sense why that sort of imagery would be more prominent.
DarkLordMalik
Member
Let me make it clear. I was talking about that particular scene in general where we had Hux make a speech. It felt out of place to me. They should have just kept it subtle like the OT.
That is an interesting theory.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Kylo Ren not being as intimidating as Vader would be totally fine if Snoke was a larger presence.
In the OT, we fear the emperor without seeing him because Vader is scary. We know Vader is an underling. In the new movies, Snoke does nothing, and his underling is an angsty child. We need to be afraid of someone in the empire but there's nobody to latch on to.
In the OT, we fear the emperor without seeing him because Vader is scary. We know Vader is an underling. In the new movies, Snoke does nothing, and his underling is an angsty child. We need to be afraid of someone in the empire but there's nobody to latch on to.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Further, the people running the First Order are people who have been romanticizing the Empire, while still believing they didn't go far enough. So it makes sense they're going to amplify the nationalistic bullshit past where the originators were comfy pushing it.
For modern-day examples of the same sort of principles, think Neo-Nazis and modern militias/secessionists.
They're being obnoxious about the imagery on purpose. The whole First Order are basically, to use an internet term that is normally really fucking annoying, "tryhards."
This is a big disconnect for some viewers: They're accustomed to bad guys being straightforward bad guys with their own innate sense of nobility and strength that, while abhorrent, is still respectable.
Kylo Ren is basically a fucking school shooter, and Snoke appears to be a snake-oil huckster/cult leader. So people who enjoy their villainy as some sort of pseudo-escapism in and of itself are disappointed, even if they don't quite realize that's the reason they're not connecting with the bad guys the way they normally do.
You misunderstand me. I'm not saying I'm incapable of criticizing the film. I didn't mean for it to sound like I'm only talking about TFA in a positive light. When I first saw it in theaters, I was disappointed and did not like it much. However, after multiple viewings and a deeper understanding of what's actually going on in the story/script and with the characters, I've come to love it. This didn't happen with the prequels, in which I had very similar feelings. They only got worse with repeated viewings.
So I think your kneejerk assessment of me being incapable of being critical of the SW universe is absolutely incorrect.
I'm here all the time criticizing the shit out of this film.
I can understand that the movie wasn't as visually groundbreaking as previous entries, but the film feels incredibly different from others in the saga. And to pretend like those differences aren't there feels extremely disingenuous.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
TFA was disappointing on a first watch but on follow up watches it was definitely more enjoyable. Mostly because my entire first watch I was just trying to play guessing games with the movie and I felt like I didn't actually get to experience it.
I could nit pick TFA to death and back and then to death again but it is honestly a rather enjoyable entry that successfully introduces a new cast and ends up with me liking them. Which I think is pretty great.
I rewatched the OT and the PT shortly before TFA and afterwards, and ROTJ definitely has the weakest moments in the OT. However I think episode 4 is damn near timeless while ESB builds on it fantastically.
The OT is a great space opera and don't let anyone tell you other wise.
The PT is interesting because the more I watch it the more I like it, the plot has huge pacing issues, the dialogue is cumbersome, poorly written and actively hampers the ability for anyone to act well (outside of ewan mcgregor in episode 3 where he absolutely kills it) and the special effects have aged about as well as milk, I think the saber effects in ROTJ are possibly better than those of episode 2.
However they build the world in a meaningful way, people shit on the space politics all the time but honestly they have their place and they add a certain something to the scope of the whole thing. The OT is clearly just the classic monomyth written in its own world, but the PT is clearly trying to grow the world and contextualize it. The clone wars show is birthed from this era and that show is honestly good enough that if I had to rank it among the best the franchise has to offer.
ESB = ANH > TCW show > TFA = ROTJ > ROTS > AOTC > TPM
Easily the best part of TCW is that you can watch Anakin become more jaded towards the jedi, by the end of the show the order has cost him more than they've given him and the only people who seem to recognize his value are the military leaders and those close to palpatine, it's a very natural growth that makes it easy how he would easily be a single bad decision away from abandoning the order he has already become so dissatisfied with.
I could nit pick TFA to death and back and then to death again but it is honestly a rather enjoyable entry that successfully introduces a new cast and ends up with me liking them. Which I think is pretty great.
I rewatched the OT and the PT shortly before TFA and afterwards, and ROTJ definitely has the weakest moments in the OT. However I think episode 4 is damn near timeless while ESB builds on it fantastically.
The OT is a great space opera and don't let anyone tell you other wise.
The PT is interesting because the more I watch it the more I like it, the plot has huge pacing issues, the dialogue is cumbersome, poorly written and actively hampers the ability for anyone to act well (outside of ewan mcgregor in episode 3 where he absolutely kills it) and the special effects have aged about as well as milk, I think the saber effects in ROTJ are possibly better than those of episode 2.
However they build the world in a meaningful way, people shit on the space politics all the time but honestly they have their place and they add a certain something to the scope of the whole thing. The OT is clearly just the classic monomyth written in its own world, but the PT is clearly trying to grow the world and contextualize it. The clone wars show is birthed from this era and that show is honestly good enough that if I had to rank it among the best the franchise has to offer.
ESB = ANH > TCW show > TFA = ROTJ > ROTS > AOTC > TPM
Easily the best part of TCW is that you can watch Anakin become more jaded towards the jedi, by the end of the show the order has cost him more than they've given him and the only people who seem to recognize his value are the military leaders and those close to palpatine, it's a very natural growth that makes it easy how he would easily be a single bad decision away from abandoning the order he has already become so dissatisfied with.
While I enjoyed TFA on my first viewing, subsequent revisits made me enjoy the movie a bit more because I was seeing more stuff in the plot that made it feel less like a clone of A New Hope and more like its own thing with surface level parallels to A New Hope but not much else beyond that. Basically TFA for me is doing the exact opposite of what the prequel movies did for me.
Yep. After the fall of the Empire a lot of the people less enthused with the regime probably got the fuck out of town, meaning the only people left were die-hard Imperials who were probably the most fanatical. So it makes sense that the First Order would go even further with their rallies and imagery. Bobby hit the nail on the head by saying the First Order is the Tryhard Empire
Yep. After the fall of the Empire a lot of the people less enthused with the regime probably got the fuck out of town, meaning the only people left were die-hard Imperials who were probably the most fanatical. So it makes sense that the First Order would go even further with their rallies and imagery. Bobby hit the nail on the head by saying the First Order is the Tryhard Empire
"I've dug myself into a hole I can't be assed digging myself out of"
I can understand not liking the film if you have reasons to back it up, I've yet to see those reasons though. And complaining about things that are explained in the film? That's just asking for it man.
I think Star Wars just isn't for you, maybe just move on and find something else you do like. Your thoughts are getting silly.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
Here's your fucking reasons: Star Wars VII doesn't respect the original trilogy
(A little thread that I made a few months back that attracted thousands of responses)
Star Wars is serious business, how about you chill out a bit an step away from the computer. I'll read your thread though, hoping it's not overly aggressive like you seem to generally be.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
BFIB
Member
Kylo Ren is not supposed to be Vader. He's shown as someone who is obsessed with his grandfather, and wants to be him, but he'll never reach that level that Vader was. Its also a wink to the fans that expect "another Vader." There will never be another Vader. That's the whole point. It puts Vader at an even higher level because Kylo, even after killing his father, didn't feel like he was on Vader's level. He had to keep hitting himself from Chewie's shot to keep his anger going. He's a fanboy. Rey even tells him that he's afraid he'll never reach Vader's level. Deep down, Kylo knows this is true.
Snoke knows this too, and is using Kylo's motivations for his own good. Han even tells him so. Just like the Emperor did with Vader. I'm sure we'll get more into Snoke's motivations in VIII and IX, but TFA had to establish the universe again. That was the films main job, to get the franchise back on track.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
I'd argue that the people who defend this film have a tendency to be... "aggressive".
That's the second time you've posted a none answer by suggesting that were the ones being aggressive / not paying attention. This is rich now.
Too hard to just say sorry and cool your jets a bit? Or are you really that relied up with people not agreeing with you?
DarkLordMalik
Member
I enjoy 4 out of the 7 movies and the series isn't for me? Okay.
You do realize there's no actual war between people who like the movie and those who don't right? Liking a movie or not liking a movie isn't a lifestyle choice, it's just an opinion.
You're never going to convince everyone of your opinion, and that's fine. I don't like the prequels, but if people do like them - more power to them.
QuantumZebra
Member
So what you're saying is this gif was you reading my last post
I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one
Oh man, Perez is back.
This is the guy that was arguing that TFA was a disgrace and trying to build up the prequels as them being on the same level.
Just give up now, y'all. There is no logic, sense, or reasoning to be done here.
George Lucas is a misunderstood visionary and Disney robbed him of seeing the proper vision of Star Wars fulfilled...
darth insanius fights 12 jedi at once while doing gnarly kickflips on his hoverboard and then rides a tauntaun into deep space
BFIB
Member
Fixed for accuracy.
For the sake of discussion I want to grab a couple of things from your post there.
The idea that if you "believe" more in the Force, let it flow through you, and it will make you stronger or whatever is more in accordance with the original trilogy's portrayal of The Force than what the Prequels did though. In the prequels The Force was literally portrayed as a quantifiable thing and the more religion you had in you, the more powerful you were with the Force. The original trilogy portrayed The Force as more of a magical entity that can do tons of fucking amazing things if you, for lack of a better term, believe in it more.
Luke Skywalker: "I don't believe it"
Yoda: "That is why you fail"
Also complaining that Rey learns her powers without training seems a little weak to me considering Luke develops most of his Jedi abilities without training as well. He manages to learn how to Force Pull a lightsaber in between A New Hope and Empire and never even saw anyone demonstrate that to him at all or without training since Ghost Obi-Wan hadn't communicated with him since the Death Star. Luke also similarly develops a bunch of powers including the Mind Trick and Force Choke inbetween Empire and Jedi when he's not in communication with Obi-Wan or Yoda. In fact Rey's ability to learn them makes a little more sense considering Kylo Ren inadvertently demonstrated a couple of them to her before she started using Force abilities. Luke develops the Force Pull and Force Choke literally out of the blue since Obi-Wan didn't demonstrate that to him nor did Vader ever show him how to choke people with The Force. The only ability Luke has demonstrated to him beforehand is the Jedi Mind Trick.
Except it's really not when you remember how much Kurasawa films and Flash Gordon serials played a huge role in shaping the vision Lucas had for the original movie. A great movie, it is, but it's originality has been vastly overblown over the decades.
old manatee
Banned
Your individual points aren't necessarily wrong, but the original trilogy wouldn't stand up to that level of nit-picking, either.
The reason people like TFA isn't because it gets all of the details right, it's because the overall pace and tone of the movie harkens back to the originals. I was just happy that I wasn't watching galactic CSPAN.
A lot of people wanted a Star Wars movie that was better than the prequels and that's what we got. Nobody expected it to be a perfect movie
except you.
QuantumZebra
Member
This isn't a battle worth fighting Seph, there is no amount of logical discussion that Perez can't ignore and regurgitate nonsensical arguments against.
Wow that is such a dead-on description of the prequels. I'm stealing that, lol.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
I'll admit it.
I get a little riled up when people say The Force Awakens is better than A New Hope.
That, to me, is borderline insulting. I feel like I need to expose people to why that is not the case. A New Hope is executed in nearly flawless fashion. The Force Awakens, to me, is a poor imitation of it that exploits some of modern day cinema's worst techniques and takes advantage of its audience with a unique pairing of modern production values and treasured imagery/iconography from a beloved franchise. On top of that, it doesn't bother to respect the vision of this universe's creator (refer to that thread I mentioned above).
I get a little riled up when people say The Force Awakens is better than A New Hope.
That, to me, is borderline insulting. I feel like I need to expose people to why that is not the case. A New Hope is executed in nearly flawless fashion. The Force Awakens, to me, is a poor imitation of it that exploits some of modern day cinema's worst techniques and takes advantage of its audience with a unique pairing of modern production values and treasured imagery/iconography from a beloved franchise. On top of that, it doesn't bother to respect the vision of this universe's creator (refer to that thread I mentioned above).
old manatee
Banned
PerezDeCorcho
Member
Original works are always derived from a combination of other original works...
Nothing is completely new. We've seen the same archetypes in these stories for thousands of years. Star Wars delivered a unique take on these myths and modernized them. That is pretty original, in my book.
Sorry to rile you up but there's some cases to be made in favor of that argument though. The common one I see brought up is that Kylo Ren is a better developed villain than Darth Vader. Which I feel is pretty true when you compare ANH Vader specifically to Kylo Ren. Vader in the original movie is a glorified attack dog for Tarkin with no character development and a minimal as fuck backstory in the first movie. All of his character development and the shit we remember Vader for doesn't happen until Empire and Jedi.
The general consensus will likely never be that TFA > ANH, but there are some solid arguments that can be made in favor of the statement.
I will agree that ANH is better, but they're just so different that it's hard to compare them. So I'll settle for they're both incredible films in their own respects.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It got its own line! This is how you know he means it.
Don't get insulted on behalf of movies. Movies are inanimate objects with no feelings to hurt. This is a huge part of why your flailing in this thread and the other is so messy and prone to rejection on behalf of people looking to engage with other ideas and viewpoints on these films.
Further, the argument that the retro-minded, legacy-focused greatest hits mixtape that was The Force Awakens is somehow "disrespectful" to George Lucas is fairly nonsensical as a criticism. It's a celebration of the man at the peak of his creative heyday, if anything.
QuantumZebra
Member
Now we're getting somewhere!
The fact is - the vision of that universe's creator sucked after A New Hope/ESB/somewhat into ROTJ. That is why he had to be put in the backseat in the OT by better directors.
That is why the prequels were abominations.
That is why Disney didn't even bother getting his input beyond the initial scope.
Nobody is saying ANH isn't good in any way, shape, or form; but trying to pretend that TFA sucked or the prequels come anywhere close to it is absurd.
BFIB
Member
Just did a quick read, and I'll play devils advocate. I understand you wanted VII to lift the franchise to new heights. I just think your vision is different than the vision Disney has.
Disney from minute one stated they were out to recapture the feel of the OT. I know your going to say they didn't do that, but in actuality, they did by basically lifting every aspect of ANH with a gut punch of nostalgia every 10 minutes throughout the film. From the shot of the star destroyer, then the falcon, Han, Chewie, Luke's lightsaber, then Leia, 3PO, then the magic of R2 turning back on. The entire movie was built for nostalgia purposes. That's the films entire point. To get the franchise back to basics, distance itself from the prequels, but work as a soft sequel to ROTJ.
I'm sure there are a lot of people like you that had high expectations. I get it. I did too, but my expectations were met because it was exactly what I wanted. A soft love letter to the devotees of the franchise, with some basic world building to establish new stories.
I never once claimed that TFA was better than ANH. Our discussion was about you having issues with the plot not making sense in TFA and you assuming that Kylo Ren was going to be the overarching threat of the new trilogy.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Lucasfilm. Disney's not calling creative shots. Lucasfilm is. The direction the company is heading is heading that direction due to Kathleen Kennedy, not Bob Iger.
PerezDeCorcho said:
The modernization of those myths, and their uniqueness, begins and ends with the setting and the execution of the visuals in that setting. The actual story isn't much of an update. Didn't need to be. Film being a primarily visual medium, taking a basic myth, and placing it amidst visuals nobody had previously thought possible, and cutting those images together as expertly as the editing team did? That's a lot right there.
Empire is where the story took the leap and became something interesting in and of itself.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
I was speaking generally. As in, that is the root of my cause.
old manatee
Banned
Telling people on the internet that they are wrong about Star Wars isn't a cause.
1. Empire Strikes back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Clone Wars
6. Phantom Menace
7. Force Awakens: New hope nostalgia remix
I love the prequels and grew up with them. I'd take their over the top sci fi silliness and important political messages any day than the boring rehash disnidifed fan service film that was episode 7.
Also prequel lightsabrr battles are the best. Nobody wants to see realistic sword fights in stars wars. We all love acrobatic flips and bravado.
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Clone Wars
6. Phantom Menace
7. Force Awakens: New hope nostalgia remix
I love the prequels and grew up with them. I'd take their over the top sci fi silliness and important political messages any day than the boring rehash disnidifed fan service film that was episode 7.
Also prequel lightsabrr battles are the best. Nobody wants to see realistic sword fights in stars wars. We all love acrobatic flips and bravado.
BFIB
Member
I get it though, people got hit hard on the nostalgia presented in TFA. I did too, and I feel I have to defend it because it is a good Star Wars movie. Some people just had different expectations, but nothing will change my mind. I felt like a kid again watching TFA the same as I did seeing ANH for the first time. That is something the prequels never did.
QuantumZebra
Member
Your "cause" in life is to yell at people who liked TFA on the internet?
Jesus, man. I'd say it's high time you took a break from Star Wars and possibly forums for a while.
TFA was a great film. It revitalized Star Wars and is literally a money machine for Disney now. Everyone and their mother (literally - my mother loved it) is overjoyed that SW is finally back in action.
If that rustles your jimmies so bad you take up a cause against it, then it's time to take a step back and relax.
Solo dropping truthbombs
I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but in the odd case that you're not - nobody loved the the prequels (or the fights) except for a weird few. If you can't tell - they are pretty much universally loathed.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
1. ESB
2. TFA
3. ANH
4. ROTJ
5. ROTS
6. TPM
7. Star Wars Holiday Special
8. Poop
9. AOTC
Also, Ren in TFA is a far more developed and interesting character (with a motivation that goes beyond "evil just cuz") than Vader in ANH.
2. TFA
3. ANH
4. ROTJ
5. ROTS
6. TPM
7. Star Wars Holiday Special
8. Poop
9. AOTC
Also, Ren in TFA is a far more developed and interesting character (with a motivation that goes beyond "evil just cuz") than Vader in ANH.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
This here is what separates me from the rest of you.
For many years, I thought that Episode VII would be a leap forward for this universe. I imagined a story in which the roles were reversed, with the Republic on top, and the Empire in ruins. The Jedi Order would be fully restored as well, thanks to the actions of Luke and company. From the moment ROTJ ended, this was what I expected. It always seemed like the most logical and natural way to continue the story.
I thought we'd see radically new designs, a new-looking world that still felt familiar at a deeper level. I was expecting and *wanting* something new.
That is obviously not what we got, and the fact that so many plot elements resembled Episode IV did not sit well with me. When I see TFA, I always wonder as to what we could have gotten.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
My cause in this particular discussion...
I have my own ambitions in life that do not involve Star Wars, take my word for it.
DarkLordMalik
Member
That magic would be lost if you had seen the movies later and not when they were originally released, which was the case for me.
Man, I would love to be on NeoGAF to witness the epic thread when TPM was released and broke box office records. That would have been a good read
Bobby Roberts
Banned
BFIB
Member
But if Luke has a rebuilt order, there is no Empire, or remnants left, what else is there to do? What's the conflict?
This is tough for me to swallow. As long as ROTS isn't above ROTJ we're good though.
I just cringe a little when I see TFA in front of ANH. A little.
old manatee
Banned
That magic would be lost if you had seen the movies later and not when they were originally released, which was the case for me.
Man, I would love to be on NeoGAF to witness the epic thread when TPM was released and broke box office records. That would have been a good read
I didn't hate The Phantom Manace until after Attack of the Clones. I knew it wasn't good, but I thought maybe he was just awkwardly laying a bunch of track for the next movie. I was bullshit after AOTC though.
QuantumZebra
Member
I uh, I believe you, buddy.
Let's ramp things down a notch though, okay?
The OT is classic as fuck and some of the best films of all time. We can agree on that, right?
Now just appreciate that TFA is right up there with them to a majority of people, and I would say most people I've seen have put TFA on par with ANH or right behind it (Empire is usually #1 and for good damn reason).
My nostalgia won't let me put TFA over ANH in my heart, but on paper you could make a very convincing argument that it should be; and I totally understand why people would think that.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
Suppress what's left of an old regime. Perhaps there are new enemies to the Republic with a respectable and sensible motive. Perhaps the Republic could start to resemble the Empire in some ways. There are many different ways to go about it. Nothing lasts forever.
I would have much rather seen that than what we got in TFA.
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