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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread

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Is it any less money than an electronic record of my "savings" in a bank account? The only difference is liquidity in converting that "electronic credit" into a something I can use to exchange for a good.

You... answered your own question?

Edit: Stock is not money, you exchange it for money. Money itself is not wealth. And the wealth of any object is based on it's value in a given situation. Stock (in the general sense) is valuable right now because you can trade it in for a lot of money and then trade that money for goods like a bagel. Good luck trading that stock in for a bagel after the apocalypse (or trading money in for that matter.)
 

Kosmo

Banned
You... answered your own question?

Edit: Stock is not money, you exchange it for money. Money itself is not wealth. And the wealth of any object is based on it's value in a given situation. Stock (in the general sense) is valuable right now because you can trade it in for a lot of money and then trade that money for goods like a bagel. Good luck trading that stock in for a bagel after the apocalypse (or trading money in for that matter.)

True I guess - what I was trying to get at is that, as they exist today, there is littler difference between owning a stock and putting your money into an electronic record at a bank. You can sell a stock and have it available to make purchases within seconds. There are obvious volatility and liquidity differences. But if you go to the point of withdrawing that money into physical cash, there is little difference.
 
Lets keep this focused. Your saying the only way to grow GDP is to print more paper bills?

I don't like where he takes his theory. But they go together. GDP goes up more money is printed. You need to have more money for a bigger GDP.

You can have a 15 trillion dollar economy with only 14 trillion in money.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
True I guess - what I was trying to get at is that, as they exist today, there is littler difference between owning a stock and putting your money into an electronic record at a bank. You can sell a stock and have it available to make purchases within seconds. There are obvious volatility and liquidity differences. But if you go to the point of withdrawing that money into physical cash, there is little difference.

From a transactional standpoint they're similar; that's the case for all liquid assets. Aside from the meaning of what a share of stock represents (the company), I'd emphasizing that volatility. A dollar is a dollar is a dollar, and will be in your bank when you want it. Share prices come and go. My bank balance is little changed from the start of the month, but the value of my company stock dropped 15% since last month.
 
Lets keep this focused. Your saying the only way to grow GDP is to print more paper bills?

Let me try and give an example of how this works.

A small town of ten people is ruled by an all powerful totem poll, with some of the population being skilled in farming and others skilled in making tools. Currently, they barter with each other to get what they need. The totem poll, however, decides that introducing some form of currency will maximize the exchange of goods and rapidly grow this fledgling town's economy, thus he puts 1000 totem bux into circulation, $100 per person, and implements a 10% tax each year to give people an incentive to attain more totem bux. The totem returns this 10% per person into the economy each year by paying some citizens to build various objects for public use, also intending for the public goods to further stimulate economic growth.

So 25 years pass, and both the population and economy have grown considerably. There are now 20 adults and several kids roaming around, and significant advancements in farming and tool making have been made, now allowing for the construction of elaborate buildings and structures. However, there's still only $1000 circulating throughout the economy, with each dollar being sought after by more people and representing more valuable goods than 25 years ago.

The totem decides this is unsustainable, and more money needs to be put into the economy to facilitate further economic growth, thus he begins spending more than the amount of money the government is taking in via taxes by commissioning a bridge be built to allow access to the fruit of trees across the river, among other public works. In total, he pays out 1000 additional totem bucks than he would in a typical year, so that there is now $2000 circulating throughout the economy.

Of course, waiting 25 years and flooding the economy with money all at once leads to instability and massive inflation (relative to the value of a dollar just prior to the increase in spending), thus governments typically increase the money pool through consistent deficit spending that leads to a fairly small (<5%) level of inflation.
 
NYT said:
Doctor Who Helped Find Bin Laden Given Jail Term, Official Says

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — A Pakistani doctor who helped the Central Intelligence Agency pin down Osama bin Laden's location under cover of a vaccination drive was convicted on Wednesday of treason and sentenced to 33 years in prison, a senior official in Pakistan said.
Don't let anyone tell you that the Pakistanis aren't serious about counterterrorism, guys.
 

Chichikov

Member
Don't let anyone tell you that the Pakistanis aren't serious about counterterrorism, guys.
I see the Agency track record of helping assets remains the as stellar in the 21st century as it was in the 20th.
HOLY...

Wow. That is just amazing stuff right there. Hope some patriotic eagle flies in John Matrix style and frees him.
I'm not sure why you're amazed.
He helped a foreign power to act against the interests of his country.
Now it's true, in this particular instance the interest of Pakistan were pretty fucking vile, but you knew that before that story broke, right?
 

Kevitivity

Member
Lordy.
...and we're right back to square one. Where do you think the money comes from, when you sell a stock and make a profit?

It came from the market valuation of the stock, the government didn't create anything in that transaction. They can regulate it, tax it, but they didn't create the money - the market did.
 

Mike M

Nick N
It came from the market valuation of the stock, the government didn't create anything in that transaction. They can regulate it, tax it, but they didn't create the money - the market did.

The market created *value* measured in the *money* created by the government.
 
Should be interesting. For the week the monthly survey was taken, UI weekly claims were down 30k compared to the prior month. That has me cautiously optimistic we'll see incremental improvement.

Eagerly looking forward to tomorrow's jobless claims too and hope to see see they hold steady.
 

Mike M

Nick N
The government backs that value, it didn't create it.
Never claimed they did.

How do you suppose the government backs continually increasing value? Without the government creating more money, the total amount of wealth cannot exceed the total amount of currency in circulation.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Is it any less money than an electronic record of my "savings" in a bank account? The only difference is liquidity in converting that "electronic credit" into a something I can use to exchange for a good.

It's no more money than say, an antique car. That car may be likely to gain or lose value and the very activity of you selling it will have a butterfly effect on the market for that car, positive or negative. You sell stock at a gain or loss of money. It's an asset.

Money is tied to the value of the economy itself, whereas stock is tied to the subset of that particular industry/company. The economy affects it, but it is not in itself money at all.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
I don't like where he takes his theory. But they go together. GDP goes up more money is printed. You need to have more money for a bigger GDP.

You can have a 15 trillion dollar economy with only 14 trillion in money.

Right, it's just that as the economy grows from 15 trillion to 18T, if you keep the money supply at $14T, that's all credit based, and you cause deflation.


A car that costed $10,000 will now cost $8000. Say you had $20,000 when the car was $10,000.

Had you purchased the car, but done absolutley nothing with it (no wear and tear, no degradation. The only thing that has changed is that you can claim the car is yours), you would now have $10,000 and a car worth $8000, or $18,000.

Had you not purchased the car, you would now have $20,000. Buying the car now would STILL result in you having $20,000 ($12,000 in cash, $8000 in a car)


Where did the extra $2000 go? Answer: It was lost due to deflation. The monetary value of your car dropped. You bought it at $10,000, but it now costs only $8000, not because the car became less useful, but because the universal standard through which goods and services are valued is supply constrained.

Since money is the universal standard through which goods and services are traded (otherwise a bartering system would be used), do you know what happens when deflation occurs? The economy contracts as activity comes to a halt. Why? Look at the numbers. $20,000 by doing nothing vs $18,000 by doing something.

( Problem: Money has no inherent value, but is the universal standard of valuation. Using money on goods and services during deflation results in a loss of wealth due to deflationary effects over time on the goods and services. Getting rid of goods and services becomes more impertaive to preserve wealth but more difficult to do because of deflationary effects. Sine the economy contracts people lose their jobs and are left dipping into their savings to acquire the necessary resources for basic survival. There is a risk of deflation giving way to rapid inflation depending on how things play out. )

The bartering system kinda sucks, but using money has its own set of problems, as well. The reason why most countries now use fiat money instead of something like the gold-standard is because it allows more flexibility. Under the gold standard, the events above can not be influenced in any way by governments. It's a beast out of control of any regulation. With fiat currency, you have the flexitibility to do everything you would under the gold-standard, but you can also artificially influence the money independently as a stabilizing effect. It's like not having any volume/frequency options on a radio vs having a slider.

IIRC, one of the cited causes of the great depression may have been the return of the gold-standard in the UK. Most of europe stopped using the gold standard in favor of fiat currency during WW1. It allowed them to offset the sharp deflationary effects of the economic contration that occured from the war, and made the costs more manageable (not to mention the promotion of national unity and patriotism through one's own currency). I believe i nthe UK, the economy contracted by 25% due to WW1, and they're an island isolated from the eurpean mainland. So you can only imagine what it was like in mainland europe, especially for the central powers who had to take on the debt of the allied powers.

The UK returned to the gold standard in 1925, which caused a spike in the valuation of their exports as the money devaluation to the pound sterling through fiat was wiped out. Sinec other countries were straddled with their own problems (not to mention many importers of British goods, like Germany, had been forced to surrender most of their gold reserves either to handle their own debt or as a condition of the Treaty of Versailles), this further crippled the export-driven British economy, and affected markets around the globe.
 

Kosmo

Banned
The original "teabagger"? Breitbart continues the vetting (you have to admire the dedication).

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...ve-The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-First-Tea-Partier

Breitbart-Obama-Tea-Party-Zoom.jpg


In 1997, Obama was beginning his first term as a state senator in Illinois. He and his fellow politicians were asked to lead the "4th on 53rd" parade, which is Hyde Park's 4th of July celebration--one not too different from many other places in America, it turns out. All the politicians who attended were expected to dress the part. The Herald even published a story the week before, on July 2nd, confirming in advance that Obama would be "wearing colonial attire."
With most politicians, wearing colonial dress for a public celebration like the 4th of July would be considered a bit colorful, but not extraordinary.
In Obama's case, it's more like proof of hypocrisy.
Since 2009, the ridicule of Tea Party signs and costumes has been so constant from Obama, the mainstream media, and the left that Glenn Beck encouraged people to stop dressing up so as not to give them an excuse.
It didn't work, though. The NAACP still saw the costumes as part of a disturbing, nationalist impulse:
The Revolutionary War-era costumes, the yellow &#8220;Don&#8217;t tread on me&#8221; Gadsden flags from the same era, the earnest recitals of the pledge of allegiance, the over-stated veneration of the Constitution, and the defense of &#8220;American exceptionalism&#8221; in a world turned towards transnational economies and global institutions: all are signs of the over-arching nationalism that helps define the Tea Party movement.​
So, by the NAACP's logic, it would appear that Barack Obama is an over-arching nationalist, and perhaps a racist, antisemitic nativist as well.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Jesus fuck, they're actually trying to pin him against the wall for being a patriot.

edit: and attempting to glue two statements together with the thinnest of justification
 
I see the Agency track record of helping assets remains the as stellar in the 21st century as it was in the 20th.
I loled.

I'm not sure why you're amazed.
He helped a foreign power to act against the interests of his country.
Now it's true, in this particular instance the interest of Pakistan were pretty fucking vile, but you knew that before that story broke, right?
See, I have a problem with that. Pakistan purports to be interested in bringing terrorists to justice; the disagreement betweem it and the US with the OBL raid is supposed to be one about tactics, not the objective being realized. Of course I realize Pakistan is full of shit on this, but it hardly seems appropriate to try a man for treason over a disagreement about means as opposed to one about ends.

The original "teabagger"? Breitbart continues the vetting (you have to admire the dedication).

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...ve-The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-First-Tea-Partier

Breitbart-Obama-Tea-Party-Zoom.jpg
Broham. We've talked about this.

Just cop to your partisan hackery and then you can post all the trifling nonsense you wish, but for the love of God stop pretending that you are merely repeating what you've heard with no interest in advancing the story.
 

Snake

Member
In 1997, Obama was beginning his first term as a state senator in Illinois. He and his fellow politicians were asked to lead the "4th on 53rd" parade, which is Hyde Park's 4th of July celebration--one not too different from many other places in America, it turns out. All the politicians who attended were expected to dress the part. The Herald even published a story the week before, on July 2nd, confirming in advance that Obama would be "wearing colonial attire."
With most politicians, wearing colonial dress for a public celebration like the 4th of July would be considered a bit colorful, but not extraordinary.
In Obama's case, it's more like proof of hypocrisy.
Since 2009, the ridicule of Tea Party signs and costumes has been so constant from Obama, the mainstream media, and the left that Glenn Beck encouraged people to stop dressing up so as not to give them an excuse.
It didn't work, though. The NAACP still saw the costumes as part of a disturbing, nationalist impulse:

The Revolutionary War-era costumes, the yellow “Don’t tread on me” Gadsden flags from the same era, the earnest recitals of the pledge of allegiance, the over-stated veneration of the Constitution, and the defense of “American exceptionalism” in a world turned towards transnational economies and global institutions: all are signs of the over-arching nationalism that helps define the Tea Party movement.

So, by the NAACP's logic, it would appear that Barack Obama is an over-arching nationalist, and perhaps a racist, antisemitic nativist as well.

I don't expect logical reasoning from Breitbart.com, but this is pretty dumb. Wearing a goofy costume to celebrate 4th of July is a different beast from wearing goofy costumes to demonstrate an exagerrated, self-righteous partisan political point. And while I don't think that statement by the NAACP is the way I'd argue against the Tea Partiers, the article completely overlooks every other argument they make besides "costumes"

The costumes themselves (I've barely seen any in the last few years) have never been a core target of criticism of the Tea Party movement. It is the framing of their concerns as being equivalent (or even remotely similar) to the American revolutionaries of yore that remains embarrasingly stupid, and if liberals pulled the same thing I'd be equally embarrased (and sometimes have been).

Further, the idea that Obama has "constantly" ridiculed the costumes of Tea Partiers is a particularly laughable fiction. Maybe there's one video out there that right-wingers watch everyday to keep themselves mad?


Or, in other words, they're definitely doing Andrew Breitbart proud. usaeagletears:
 

Jooney

Member
So let's pretend for a moment that Obama wasn't actually vetted back in 2008. This photo comes out. So what? There was no such thing as the Tea Party then, so why would it be a big deal if he dressed up in revolutionary clothing? Are right-wingers going to retroactively criticise Obama for being hypocritical on things that didn't exist at the time? The fuck?
 

Kevitivity

Member
How are you not getting this.

My only point is that empty vessel is wrong when he says the ONLY way to grow an economy is for government to print bills. I should not have let you sidetrack our conversation.

Numismatic money is more of a convenience tool, and doesn't represent the economy as a whole. Our GDP is much much larger than the number of paper bills and coins in circulation.
 

Averon

Member
What does this latest "vetting" from Breibart's minions suppose to prove? That Obama participated in a 4th of July parade in colonial garb? Doesn't that run counter to the image that Obama's some anti-American Marxist/Communist/Nazi?

It certainly doesn't make Obama a hypocrite, since he never criticized the Tea Party for wearing colonial clothing.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
So here's the other Breitbar "exclusive" that came out this week that I'm still trying to figure out:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journa...nt-About-Failing-and-Clueless-Mainstream-Meda

So the Breitbrats are saying that they're not trying to be birthers by bringing up that stuff, but rather they're just pointing out things that the mainstream media some how "missed". Even if we're to believe that, what the hell is the relevance of this piece? They claim that if such a mistake wasn't such a big deal, why didn't Obama or anyone on his team correct the pamphlet in 16 years? I'm confused, did Obama carry around this pamphlet ever since he first printed it out?
 
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