Invisible_Insane
Member
I just spent ten minutes trying to understand what the hell this is about and why anyone should care.
What've you got against Elie Wiesel? All I know of him is the book I had to read in 6th grade or so.
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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread
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What've you got against Elie Wiesel? All I know of him is the book I had to read in 6th grade or so.
I think as an atheistic you shouldn't see that as disrespecting the dead.
They're not doing anything physical here, they're picking some dead person's name and saying some prayer for him, and it's all intended to guarantee that person's place in heaven.
I'm sorry but I just don't see the problem -
Their intentions are fine (they think they're helping those souls) and all non-Mormon do not believe it does nothing.
Do you think that this practice somehow turn dead people into Mormonism?
Like, really?
Byakuya769
Member
But this doesn't change their beliefs? How exactly is it disrespectful? Other faiths tell each other they're wrong while they're alive, why does it become more disrespectful after a person passes?
It's a reason to shake your head at their practice, but I cannot really understand being that angry about something we would perceive as meaningless.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
You guys don't see the problem with desecrating the remains of millions of Jews? Uh...ok.
While we're tangentially close to Yiddish, whoever restored my tag (Opiate?) spelled Schmuck wrong.
While we're tangentially close to Yiddish, whoever restored my tag (Opiate?) spelled Schmuck wrong.
There are many reasons, but chief among them is his long fight against the recognition of non-Jewish holocaust survivors.
Though honestly, I don't like to argue that point all that much, as I always end up on the same side with holocaust deniers (or well meaning internet posters who get their info from holocaust denial sites).
I think you can make a reasoned argument that the intent is offensive even if the act itself is meaningless to Atheists. I don't because I find the act meaningless and don't really care about the intent but it's clearly something that could offend people, especially if they practice and believe in another religion.
Manmademan
Member
they're not going out literally sprinkling water on corpses, they use a stand in.
The reason why I (and these jews) are upset is that it shows a profound lack of respect for the beliefs of the person while they were alive. If a person lived as a jew, made the informed choice to die as a jew, baptising them into your faith posthumously is a really, really shitty thing to do. It basically says "yes, we know you thought our religion was BS when you were alive, but what we think is right, and your faith is wrong, so we're going to choose to ignore that".
Those people chose to reject mormonism while they were alive and live with the consequences. I'm well aware that if for some (highly unlikely) reason I end up in the mormon afterlife that I'm screwed, and you know what? I'm fine with that. let me suffer. Doing anything that indicates otherwise in their/my name after their/my death is a slap in the face to what they and I believe.
Byakuya769
Member
Smh.
The intent is to get them into heaven.
How is that offensive?
How is that different than praying for the Messiah to come?
All non believers will be converted, dead, or sent to hell (depending on which religion we're talking about), all more offensive than using their name in a baptizing ceremony posthumously in my book.
Umm, they don't get bodies of dead Jews or anything.
They're just using their name.
While we're tangentially close to Yiddish -
It's a matter of respect. I'm in this weird nexus between Mormonism and atheism (I married in the temple, and am now a non-believing heathen while my wife is still active). When I was younger, I participated in baptisms for the dead.
It's not uncommon for inactive relatives to be baptized after their death by their active relatives. If this were done to people I know, or to members of my family, I would be upset. Because it is writing over a part of who they were when they were alive, placing their label on them. You do not need to be religious to be offended by the concept, just someone who wants the dead to be respected, rather than have part of who they were when they lived written over posthumously. The intentions are good, but that does not excuse it. A lot of objectionable things are done with good intentions.
Manmademan
Member
Speaking as an atheist, I don't consider heaven a good thing, nor do I want to be associated with the mormon church in any capacity. If someone makes it VERY clear during life they want nothing to do with your religion, ignoring those wishes after death is disrespectful. As an african american and a liberal, I wouldn't want to be posthumously registered as a republican either, since I do not like what that party stands for.
you can pray for whatever you want to believe, you cannot pray for that in my name, or claim that I somehow condone or endorse your religion when I've said otherwise.
I think it's been covered but it is offensive in the sense that these people never wanted to be baptized in the first place. So you are disrespecting their wants by posthumously baptizing them. It depends on how much worth you place in their wishes now that they are no longer alive.
I really don't understand how any of that disrespect the dead.
Again, they think they're helping them, and you think it does nothing.
What's the problem here?
Also, I think it take a bit more than using a name in a ritual to write over someone's identity.
I don't see how that would make you associated with the Mormon church, I really don't, I'm a free person and I choose my own associations.
So you think Mormons shouldn't pray for Tim Tebow's success?
I really don't understand that position.
I don't think they're making that claim.
But they are not baptized, their name is being used in a Mormon ritual.
I don't think it's reasonable to demand that your name will not be used by people of certain religion.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Didn't Rick Perry do this in Texas?
That seems to be the intuitive rationale. But the premise is based on the specious assumption the quantity of jobs are finite and thus older workers crowd out other workers. NBER researches published a study that used panel data from various industrialized economies and found no evidence for the assumption. Rather, preliminary evidence indicates expanded employment for older workers increases employment for others; granted, it could be noise, and correlation does not necessarily indicate causation. Assuming it's true, how is it possible? Unfortunately, the authors failed to provide any causal mechanisms. I'd posit the reduction in income for older workers diminishes aggregate demand thereby reducing employment for others.
My friend, that was not an affront to your style. His tastes would be best served by liking both our styles.
gutter_trash
Banned
it`s a smart calculated move. Christie is a 2016 hopeful and he is trying to bridge with demographics who aren't usually favorable to Republicans
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
And Chichi's point is that it shouldn't matter if you're an atheist, and if you're not an atheist, your opinion is irrelevant.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
I wonder what he would do if Snooki died. I'm guessing she doesn't get the half-mast treatment.
In Christie's defense, Houston did do something with the National Anthem that, regardless of your views of patriotism (I think it's a vice of the violent), was never quite done that spectacularly. Not that she's a national hero or anything.
Hahaha. I think you're reading too much into it.
Arrowgigantic
Member
Mormons document their posthumous conversions. Say Mormonism eventually dies out and this practice is lost to history-- I don't want my future great x12 grandaughter cracking open some Mormon vault and thinking her ancestor was a goofball.
over 1/3rd of the world's jews were killed during the holocaust. And the mormon church wants to whitewash it and turn them into mormons.
These people were exterminated because of who they were. And the mormon church is dishonoring their memory by converting them to mormonism (that's from their perspective) with these post-humous bapitisms.
As a Jew, it's very insulting. Why don't they just piss on the gravestones while they're at it.
These people were exterminated because of who they were. And the mormon church is dishonoring their memory by converting them to mormonism (that's from their perspective) with these post-humous bapitisms.
As a Jew, it's very insulting. Why don't they just piss on the gravestones while they're at it.
NihonTiger90
Member
Indiana.
He's also not on the DC ballot and can't get full delegate support in North Daokta or Illinois.
Jews were killed based of their race, not religion.
Converting to Mormonism (which is not exactly the same thing as using your name in a baptism for the dead ceremony) would have not spared you from Auschwitz.
Also, I fail to understand how this whitewash the holocaust.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
Do you think Snooki has ever gotten anything better than the half mast treatment?
orson_wells_clap.gif
I did not say "it does nothing". If that's what you came away with, please re-read. I don't have the capacity to explain it any more clearly that I did, nor more clearly than many others have. We've outlined our objections, and you are just repeating "what's the problem" over and over. Well, read what we wrote. If you don't get it from that, there's no point discussing it. Clearly this is something that bothers many people but which you just don't fundamentally understand or agree with.
StopMakingSense
Member
That joke was really teed-up there :lol
Sorry, I should've said "you should think it does nothing".
Isn't that true?
Do you believe that this ritual has any sort of effect on your soul (or any other part of your metaphysical self)?
I'm seriously asking.
Byakuya769
Member
You bring the historical analysis and foreign policy and I'll bring the snark.
Manmademan
Member
no, I don't, since I don't believe the soul exists.
What I DO think exists, are arrogant attitudes that willfully disregard the wishes that non mormons made in life. Some christians feel that the only reason non christians are the way they are is because they just "haven't heard" or "just don't know" about christ.
This is wrong. Plenty of us make an informed decision to live our lives otherwise and would like that respected. The mormon church chooses not to do that, since hey! mormonism is great! who wouldn't want to be in mormon heaven? It's arrogance and willful disregard for the wishes and choices one makes in life.
And yeah, I'll be dead and won't care, but I wouldn't want someone pissing on my grave or raping my corpse either. For those non christians I know that are no longer alive, I would be very disturbed if I heard that someone had gone around drafting them into their religion posthumously, since it misrepresents what those people stood for when they were alive.
Again, this is not limited to religion. If I caught someone registering my grandfather into the republican party posthumously I would be extremely upset for the same reasons- because what that organization stands for goes against what he believed in life. They don't have the right to associate themselves with him without his consent.
It's odd that you don't "get" why someone wouldn't want this happening to them, or those they know that have passed on.
Byakuya769
Member
The church isn't making any statement about the person other than, "They were a good person, let's baptize them and get them to heaven." That person's belief, history, or the perception of that person doesn't change.
It's true in the sense that I don't think there's any effect on the dead person.
Chichikov said:
No, I don't. But that's not why I object to the practice; the objection is a matter of respect for the deceased.
A crude illustration: Let's say you and I have a mutual friend, Ned, whom we hold dear. Ned is an atheist, and more than that an anti-theist. One day Ned is hit by a truck, and that's that. His extended family then baptizes him into the Mormon church so he has the chance in this fictional afterlife to accept their beliefs. They do this and tell everyone they know that Ned is happily getting converted in the afterlife.
Now, this won't bother Ned. The dude's dead. But it would bother me, as his friend, because his anti-theism was a critical part of who he was and these people are not respecting that fact, trying to whitewash his memory to fit their religion. I'd be arguing with them that if they really respected Ned, they'd do so for who he was and not for who he was not. I'd object in the same way I'd object if someone started telling lies about someone I knew who died; I would want the record corrected about them. Not sure if that helped or not, but it's the best I can come up with.
I don't mean to blow this up into a big deal. It's not actually something I worry about or have even thought of much. But when I read about people saying they would be upset about that sort of thing, I think I understand why, even if they are non-believers.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
I don't know how many of those people explicitly wished to not be in a Mormon ritual, but even if they did, I don't really think this is a reasonable demand.
Mormons have the right to worship the way they see fit, as long as they're not hurting anyone.
And I don't see how they do, under any religious doctrine (again: if you're a Mormon, you'd think you're helping them, if you're not, than their just babbling magic words to their false God).
Also, by that logic, it should be fair for a Christian soldiers to demand that Jews don't pray for them.
That sound reasonable to you?
You keep saying associate, but that's your interpretation.
Does anyone think those holocaust victims are/were Mormons?
Are we making problems up here?
PhoenixDark
Banned
Now poligaf is talking about social issues? 
Manmademan
Member
If that person was interested in mormon heaven, they would have converted while alive.
Imagine this exchange:
you see why I might be upset with the concept of potentially being baptized into a faith I don't believe in?
Mormons can do whatever they want with their bodies, their name, and their image. They have zero rights when it comes to co-opting mine.
Again, you can pray all you want, in the name of whatever god you believe in. Once you start dragging my name and image into your beliefs without my say so, is when we have problems. Your rights end where mine begins. So praying for your god to have mercy on me is perfectly fine. your time is yours to waste. Claiming that I did so, or am now baptized into your faith? different story.
It is my interpretation, and if it can be interpreted as such, then perhaps the mormon church should stop doing it?
The mormon church seems to feel that some of those holocaust victims converted posthumously- if they didn't there would be no point to doing it in the first place. And again- the mormon church does not have that right.
edit: I feel I've expressed myself enough on this issue. if you still choose to be willfully obtuse here, you can do so without feedback from me.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
If you don't believe in an afterlife, you'll be dead and won't care, though. I guess I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Not saying I condone it in any respect but...you'll be dead. You won't care.
Now, I guess I can see the argument a bit on the side of the family, but I don't see why it's so hard to ignore it.
That's not really what happens though.
I think it's more like -
My friend: did you hear? some group of people that you don't know might use your name in some weird ritual that is supposed to get you into heaven.
Me: whatever.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be thick here, but I really don't get it.
Part of living in a free and diverse society is understanding that not everyone share your faith, getting worked out over this sounds like getting pissed when people wish you a merry Christmas.
Yeah, you can get offended that they force their false God's birthday on you, or you can understand that they only mean you well and get over it.
I suggest we do that latter as a society, and yes, I'm also implying that we're only do it to Mormonism because it's out of the mainstream, Christians pray for people's health and soul all the time while they still alive.
titiklabingapat
Member
Now poligaf is talking about social issues?
I was just about to say. I like it better when it is mostly all about foreign policy and economics.
speculawyer
Member
I was thinking of creating a thread about this whole practice. I can see how it is offensive . . . keep your creepy space Jesus to yourself. But I can see how it doesn't matter at all. . . . if you are atheist, you don't believe in any of it, so who cares? And Mormons feel the recipients can reject if they want so they don't feel they are forcing it on anyone really.
I loved the Bill Maher un-baptism of Mitt's wife's father though.
Maybe we should, we derailed this thread enough.
(though honestly, I kinda said all I have to say on the subject).
I don't see how a post-mortem ceremony would make any difference for you if it turns out that eternal judgment is real. I tend to believe that if such a thing exists, it depends entirely on your own thoughts and actions. Some religions put far too much emphasis on rituals, IMO.
speculawyer
Member
The ritual cures an imperfection in a religion's plausibility. Humans have been around for 250 to 100 thousand years. Mormonism was only invented in the 1800's. So did this just god just send all those previous people to hell? How did they have any chance at salvation if the religion didn't exist yet? This religion can't be real since no just god would do that! So you create a ritual that allows those earlier people to be included into the religion via post mortem baptism. It is a clever little invention. I think the Catholic church uses limbo to address the issue.
What's Obama got to do with any of this?
So circumcision, for or against?
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