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[East Lake]

The socialism views polling images and numbers has been done to death. I can't be bothered to pull it up 20 times a day.

Don't bother to complain about dogma then!

Complete and total bull. Bernie hasn't been remotely hit with the socialist hammer yet. Hillary sure as hell hasn't, and very recently refused to do so on Chris Matthews. Should he get the nomination, there will be a million ads showing him, proudly, saying he's a socialist. They'll have an ad tying him to his honeymoon in the USSR. They'll run the ad where he says he's not a capitalist. His huge policy speech on "Rah, rah, rah Socialism!" was scheduled and done during the middle of the Paris attacks coverage. 50% of Americans say they would not vote for a socialist. This is not something that can just be waived away. It is a problem for him, should he get to the General.

You seem to be laboring under the idea that the American populace is a logical, well informed mobilized group for Democracy. We're not. There is a huge disconnect between the things we say we want and the things we're willing to accept to get those things. Regardless of how much better of we'd be if we were more like Scandinavia, the average American simply does not want that. 44% of people on Social Security say they've never taken a government benefit. 40% on Medicare say the same thing. We're a country in which 75% of us say we don't trust the government, and yet you think a winning strategy is to come out and say you want bigger government? That you want to give the government more control over American's lives? It might work in a partisan primary, it will not work in the General.

So, they'll do everything they did against Obama? Doesn't seem like a particularly threatening fantasy.

 

[Iolo]

Don't bother to complain about dogma then!

So, they'll do everything they did against Obama? Doesn't seem like a particularly threatening fantasy.

Obama wasn't actually a socialist.

 

[User 463088]

Don't bother to complain about dogma then!

So, they'll do everything they did against Obama? Doesn't seem like a particularly threatening fantasy.

Except, you know, this time it's actually true.

That's like saying Americans wouldn't have a problem with actual death panels since they tried it with Obama.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Don't bother to complain about dogma then!

So, they'll do everything they did against Obama? Doesn't seem like a particularly threatening fantasy.

You are wrong. Bernie Sanders has said he is a socialist. This tape will be used in countless ads if he got there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psp-r68mo8k&t=0m23s

 

[JesseEwiak]

Don't bother to complain about dogma then!

So, they'll do everything they did against Obama? Doesn't seem like a particularly threatening fantasy.

There's not video footage of Obama describing himself as a socialist and being happy about taking his honeymoon in the Soviet Union.

 

[Black Mamba]

Obama has mostly accomplished the main things he ran on in 2008.

His approval ratings somehow aren't 60%.

When we killed OBL, Obama still didn't have super great approval ratings.

A non-insignificant portion of this country thinks Obama is a Muslim, a Kenyon, a Marxist.

People believe the BLS is lying about its stats.

Jade Helm? Obamaphones?

Even a sizable portion of Dems are disappointed with Obama...and I don't mean the ones that wish he was further to the left. I mean the ones that feel like he's no different than the GOP. Which is fucking stupid. By almost any objective measure, Obama has been a success to the left.

Our electorate is fucking stupid. Not just the median or average voter but the overwhelming majority of voters are politically illiterate and/or susceptible to pure bullshit. This is true of the fake money peddler on the street to the hedge fund manager to the doctor that saves lives to the grocery store bagger to the programmer to the movie star. In every walk of life most people know and understand fuck all about politics.

If Bernie were to get to a the general election, things are not going to be so smooth.

 

[Y2Kev]

Bernie sanders is alinskylike!!!!

 

[Makai]

You are wrong. Bernie Sanders has said he is a socialist. This tape will be used in countless ads if he got there.

That's OK. Trump has plenty of material. I'm imagining Romney "I like firing people" but doubling down and working it into stump speeches.

 

[East Lake]

Except, you know, this time it's actually true.

That's like saying Americans wouldn't have a problem with actual death panels since they tried it with Obama.

You were just arguing about what the electorate believes is important, not what is actually true. And now you're saying the opposite is more important. Many believe that Obama is a socialist, and also that he's muslim, so Bernie will pick up the anti-muslim vote in ivysaur's survey. Science!

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

You were just arguing about what the electorate believes is important, not what is actually true. And now you're saying the opposite is more important. Many believe that Obama is a socialist, and also that he's muslim, so Bernie will pick up the anti-muslim vote in ivysaur's survey. Science!

Did the people who voted for Obama believe he was a muslim and a socialist? The polls don't lie, socialism is EXTREMELY unpopular in America. That's just the facts that we have to deal with. I wish it wasn't, you wish it wasn't, but we have to live with the reality.

This is the main point I'm trying to make here. It doesn't matter what's true or what's right and wrong. It only matter what you can get voters to believe. Sanders might be more qualified in foreign policy than anyone else, who knows. But there's little to no chance the media the electorate is going to PERCEIVE that he is. Just like Democrats are always perceived as weaker on terrorism but stronger on the environment. Perception is reality.

 

[Holmes]

Bernie sanders is alinskylike!!!!

Preach fam

 

[Deleted member 231381]

1. What proportion of the vote did Romney get in 2012?
2. What proportion of American voters said they would not vote for a socialist?
3. What proportion of Republicans do you think will not vote for a socialist?

#DoTheMath

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Bernie sanders is alinskylike!!!!

I feel sorry for you having to come in here every now and again to check we're all behaving.

 

[rjinaz]

You were just arguing about what the electorate believes is important, not what is actually true. And now you're saying the opposite is more important. Many believe that Obama is a socialist, and also that he's muslim, so Bernie will pick up the anti-muslim vote in ivysaur's survey. Science!

That poll is the "go to" for Hilary Supporters. I'm surprised Hilary doesn't have it displayed front page of her website honestly. Maybe she will in February.

 

[User 463088]

You were just arguing about what the electorate believes is important, not what is actually true. And now you're saying the opposite is more important. Many believe that Obama is a socialist, and also that he's muslim, so Bernie will pick up the anti-muslim vote in ivysaur's survey. Science!

A swing and a miss.

The "Obama is a socialist" thing didn't stick with a majority of voters because Obama was able to counter it. He said "No I'm not." There wasn't a tape of Obama saying he's a socialist. So, when that attack was levied against him it became a "He said, she said" thing. When the GOP says Bernie is a socialist, they can actually prove it this time. There will be a tape of him saying it. There are tapes of him saying it within the last few years. So, a majority of people WILL believe he's a socialist because it's actually true.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

1. What proportion of the vote did Romney get in 2012?
2. What proportion of American voters said they would not vote for a socialist?
3. What proportion of Republicans do you think will not vote for a socialist?

#DoTheMath

If I'm not mistaken, those Gallup numbers are all adults so the number could be worse in registered voters and likely voters. All adults typically align with liberal/democratic views substantially higher than likely voters which are more conservative.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

Breaking News: Ted Cruz did not disclose a loan from Goldman Sachs that was used for his Senate campaign

If Cruz can weasel his way out of having his Senate campaign funded by Goldman Sachs he may really be Nixon re-incarnated.

 

[Makai]

Everyone goes through a socialist phase in their 60s. No big deal.

 

[GnawtyDog]

This is just boring tit for tat nonsense. You handwave away Clinton's inability to enthuse her support, her terrible polling numbers among independents, her terrible polling numbers in GE matchups, her consistently downwards trending favorability, you name it.

For what it's worth, I doubt Sanders will be outspent by large margins. Without going to PACs, he's keeping level with Clinton. He's raised twice as much as Jeb! so far. He'd have the Democratic party at his back, Obama and (possibly) Bill doing the meet 'n greets. He doesn't have SuperPAC access, but then... literally name a single effective thing a SuperPAC has done this campaign. They've crashed and burned.

The socialist thing is a non-starter. Everyone knows about it already, nobody cares (except you).

Sanders is just fine on foreign policy. He doesn't want to run on it, but he can talk about it. This is not a guy who struggles on foreign policy issues.

Now this is a non-serious statement.

 

[Makai]

If Cruz can weasel his way out of having his Senate campaign funded by Goldman Sachs he may really be Nixon re-incarnated.

Is that an ethics breach or just poor form?

 

[Black Mamba]

1. What proportion of the vote did Romney get in 2012?
2. What proportion of American voters said they would not vote for a socialist?
3. What proportion of Republicans do you think will not vote for a socialist?

#DoTheMath

That's a poll of Americans, not voters. Most non-voters tend to be democrat-leaners.

Second:

41% of Dems won't vote for a socialist. That's um...bad.

Ok, now by age:

Older people more likely to vote...And the 35+ crowd is pretty much 60% won't vote for a socialist...

 

[Black Mamba]

If Cruz can weasel his way out of having his Senate campaign funded by Goldman Sachs he may really be Nixon re-incarnated.

Monthly reminder: Ted Cruz' wife was an executive at Goldman Sachs until he decided to run for President.

 

[rjinaz]

Now this is a non-serious statement.

Yeah. I think people will care, and it's naive to think it's not going to be an issue or a huge talking point later on. I don't know how many of the voters will care though. I mean I know there is that one poll and everything, but putting a face to "socialism" might have changed a lot of people's minds. Heck a lot of people probably don't even know what socialism is. People will be more informed before voting happens surely.

 

[East Lake]

Did the people who voted for Obama believe he was a muslim and a socialist? The polls don't lie, socialism is EXTREMELY unpopular in America. That's just the facts that we have to deal with. I wish it wasn't, you wish it wasn't, but we have to live with the reality.

This is the main point I'm trying to make here. It doesn't matter what's true or what's right and wrong. It only matter what you can get voters to believe. Sanders might be more qualified in foreign policy than anyone else, who knows. But there's little to no chance the media the electorate is going to PERCEIVE that he is. Just like Democrats are always perceived as weaker on terrorism but stronger on the environment. Perception is reality.

Sorry but pointing to a negative poll on socialism doesn't doom Sanders. People vote for different reasons.

Another wrinkle is that in contrast with Obama, people might not perceive Bernie as the antichrist, so that might be another area of opportunity. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/02/americans-obama-anti-christ-conspiracy-theories

 

[Iolo]

Everyone goes through a socialist phase in their 60s. No big deal.

Even the 20th century did.

 

[Holmes]

1. What proportion of the vote did Romney get in 2012?
2. What proportion of American voters said they would not vote for a socialist?
3. What proportion of Republicans do you think will not vote for a socialist?

#DoTheMath

This is a very disingenuous point to make here and I hope you realize it. You're hoping those who won't support a socialist are 100% the same people who vote Republican but you know they're not.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Okay, I'm going to quote YouGOV's Anthony Wells:

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9477

I really don’t like “does X make you more or less likely to vote” questions. On policy questions they are particularly abhorrent as they are used to try and measure salience – or more often, to try and deliberately overstate the salience of an issue. It’s inevitably some pressure group, the campaign for ponies or whatever, asking a question saying “If party X offered you a pony would you be more likely to vote for them?”. Everyone says yes, as they like free ponies, and you end up with a press release saying that 70% of people will change their vote based on the issue of pony-ownership, and ponies are going to be the key election deciding issue. Sigh.

"Would you vote for X sort of candidate?" questions are exactly the same. People form a vague idea of what a candidate associated with X would be like and choose based on that. Often they just reject particular ideas because the question is reminding them of that particular issue which draws attention to its controversiality. They are not revealing questions and they are not useful for determining voter preferences.

 

[Foffy]

I was talking to my friend the other day about how slowly automation is happening. Even if Intel triumps over Moore's Law, there's still the people don't give a shit problem. Where's the website that every business and government uses to notify you when you owe them? Where's vote.gov? Any beginning web programmer could build this stuff but Americans won't get on board. Half of the businesses near me accept cash only. I know someone in their mid thirties who has never had a bank account. My last job was making software to replace engineering teams. Never worked out because the client companies were too disorganized to give us a workable spec. Most of them didn't even use spreadsheets.

I guess it pays to be stupid in America. It makes Americans already unavailable for the automation problems! :3c

I do worry about the people don't give a shit problem, but I've spoke enough about it on GAF that you know where I stand there. I mean, this is the problem of being a have not in society as is, with the likes of poverty.

 

[Holmes]

Okay, I'm going to quote YouGOV's Anthony Wells:

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9477



"Would you vote for X sort of candidate?" questions are exactly the same. People form a vague idea of what a candidate associated with X would be like and choose based on that. Often they just reject particular ideas because the question is reminding them of that particular issue which draws attention to its controversiality. They are not revealing questions and they are not useful for determining voter preferences.

I agree, those kinds of questions aren't good predictors. But it's more about what we know the attacks will be like with a self-proclaimed socialist, and how effective the "socialist" attack has been in the past.

I mean there's a reason Canada's own socialist party doesn't even call itself socialist.

 

[Iolo]

Yeah. I think people will care, and it's naive to think it's not going to be an issue or a huge talking point later on. I don't know how many of the voters will care though. I mean I know there is that one poll and everything, but putting a face to "socialism" might have changed a lot of people's minds. Heck a lot of people probably don't even know what socialism is. People will be more informed before voting happens surely.

*now imagining an ad with Bernie's face morphing into Karl Marx*

 

[rjinaz]

Okay, I'm going to quote YouGOV's Anthony Wells:

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9477



"Would you vote for X sort of candidate?" questions are exactly the same. People form a vague idea of what a candidate associated with X would be like and choose based on that. Often they just reject particular ideas because the question is reminding them of that particular issue which draws attention to its controversiality. They are not revealing questions and they are not useful for determining voter preferences.

also something else to point out about that particular poll. The socialist choice is the least offensive. Somebody might not be inclined to choose the other options because it would make them out to be a bigot. Would you vote for a Muslim? Of course I'm not a bigot. Would you vote for a socialist? Probably not. Whatever the heck that is.

 

[User 463088]

Okay, I'm going to quote YouGOV's Anthony Wells:

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9477



"Would you vote for X sort of candidate?" questions are exactly the same. People form a vague idea of what a candidate associated with X would be like and choose based on that. Often they just reject particular ideas because the question is reminding them of that particular issue which draws attention to its controversiality. They are not revealing questions and they are not useful for determining voter preferences.

I'm glad you mentioned YouGov. Makes this a lot better to post

From YouGov's October poll:

4. Do you have a favorable or an unfavorable opinion of socialism?
Very favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7%
Somewhat favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18%
Somewhat unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15%
Very unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28%

5. Do you have a favorable or an unfavorable opinion of capitalism?
Very favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20%
Somewhat favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28%
Somewhat unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .17%
Very unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23%

6. Bernie Sanders has described himself as a "democratic socialist". Does this make you
more or less likely to support him, or does it make no difference either way?
More likely . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10%
Less likely . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15%
No difference – I wouldn’t support him anyway . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39%
No difference – I would support him regardless . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24%

So, would you like to revise that "nobody cares" statement?

 

[Black Republican]

TRUSTED

 

[Holmes]

I'm glad you mentioned YouGov. Makes this a lot better to post

From YouGov's October poll:

4. Do you have a favorable or an unfavorable opinion of socialism?
Very favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7%
Somewhat favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18%
Somewhat unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15%
Very unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28%

5. Do you have a favorable or an unfavorable opinion of capitalism?
Very favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20%
Somewhat favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28%
Somewhat unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .17%
Very unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23%

6. Bernie Sanders has described himself as a "democratic socialist". Does this make you
more or less likely to support him, or does it make no difference either way?
More likely . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10%
Less likely . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15%
No difference – I wouldn’t support him anyway . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39%
No difference – I would support him regardless . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24%

So, would you like to revise that "nobody cares" statement?

Capitalism does suck though more often than not.

 

[User 463088]

Capitalism does suck though more often than not.

Oh, definitely. I don't have an issue with socialism, myself. I learned, though, that I'm not representative of this country, unfortunately.

 

[rjinaz]

I'm glad you mentioned YouGov. Makes this a lot better to post

From YouGov's October poll:

4. Do you have a favorable or an unfavorable opinion of socialism?
Very favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7%
Somewhat favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18%
Somewhat unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15%
Very unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28%

5. Do you have a favorable or an unfavorable opinion of capitalism?
Very favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20%
Somewhat favorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28%
Somewhat unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .17%
Very unfavorable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23%

6. Bernie Sanders has described himself as a "democratic socialist". Does this make you
more or less likely to support him, or does it make no difference either way?
More likely . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10%
Less likely . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15%
No difference – I wouldn’t support him anyway . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39%
No difference – I would support him regardless . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12%
Not sure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24%

So, would you like to revise that "nobody cares" statement?

I don't know, it seems Capitalism would be the obvious favorite considering that is what everybody is familiar with and if you favor one you are less likely to favor another. And only 15% would not vote for Sanders because he is a Socialist specifically.

I'm not really arguing your point though. I think it will matter to a degree, maybe a large degree.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Repost:

I won't be so sure about that. The rhetoric coming out of a lot of Sanders supporters sound a lot more ideological than what you normally see from Democrats. I'm not entirely sure all of them would approach the GE pragmatically.

No one can name one Hillary supporter on this board who has said they would abstain or vote for Trump(in the general). All of us have said we would vote for bernie if he was the nominee including myself. I'd have extreme reservations on his chances but I am a loyal Democrat in the end.

 

[Y2Kev]

January surprise for Ted!

 

[East Lake]

As Barack Obama claims the mantle of presumptive Democratic nominee, nearly 70 percent of Americans say the country is ready for a black president, a new CBS News poll shows.

Sixty-eight percent of Americans say the country is ready - up 6 points from March and 14 points from January. Eight years ago, only 38 percent of those polled said the country was ready for a black president.

Nearly two in three registered voters - 63 percent - say that most people they know would vote for a black president. But roughly one in four believe that most of the people they know would not.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-poll-ready-for-a-black-president/

Dark times in January 08 poligaf. America too racist for Obama.

 

[rjinaz]

Repost:



No one can name one Hillary supporter on this board who has said they would abstain or vote for Trump(in the general). All of us have said we would vote for bernie if he was the nominee including myself. I'd have extreme reservations on his chances but I am a loyal Democrat in the end.

That's the thing though. Bernie is pulling in independents and the like who aren't committed to the party. Plenty of Bernie supporters are going to vote for Hillary.

 

[Black Mamba]

As Ted Cruz tells it, the story of how he financed his upstart campaign for the United States Senate four years ago is an endearing example of loyalty and shared sacrifice between a married couple.

“Sweetheart, I’d like us to liquidate our entire net worth, liquid net worth, and put it into the campaign,” he says he told his wife, Heidi, who readily agreed.

But the couple’s decision to pump more than $1 million into Mr. Cruz’s successful Tea Party-darling Senate bid in Texas was made easier by a large loan from Goldman Sachs, where Mrs. Cruz works. That loan was not disclosed in campaign finance reports.

Those reports show that in the critical weeks before the May 2012 Republican primary, Mr. Cruz — currently a leading contender for his party’s presidential nomination — put “personal funds” totaling $960,000 into his Senate campaign. Two months later, shortly before a scheduled runoff election, he added more, bringing the total to $1.2 million — “which is all we had saved,” as Mr. Cruz described it in an interview with The New York Times several years ago.

A review of personal financial disclosures that Mr. Cruz filed later with the Senate does not find a liquidation of assets that would have accounted for all the money he spent on his campaign. What it does show, however, is that in the first half of 2012, Ted and Heidi Cruz obtained the low-interest loan from Goldman Sachs, as well as another one from Citibank. The loans totaled as much as $750,000 and eventually increased to a maximum of $1 million before being paid down later that year. There is no explanation of their purpose.

Neither loan appears in reports the Ted Cruz for Senate Committee filed with the Federal Election Commission, in which candidates are required to disclose the source of money they borrow to finance their campaigns. Other campaigns have been investigated and fined for failing to make such disclosures, which are intended to inform voters and prevent candidates from receiving special treatment from lenders. There is no evidence that the Cruzes got a break on their loans.

A spokeswoman for Mr. Cruz’s presidential campaign, Catherine Frazier, acknowledged that the loan from Goldman Sachs, drawn against the value of the Cruzes’ brokerage account, was a source of money for the Senate race. Ms. Frazier added that Mr. Cruz also sold stocks and liquidated savings, but she did not address whether the Citibank loan was used.

The failure to report the Goldman Sachs loan, for as much as $500,000, was “inadvertent,” she said, adding that the campaign would file corrected reports as necessary. Ms. Frazier said there had been no attempt to hide anything.

“These transactions have been reported in one way or another on his many public financial disclosures and the Senate campaign’s F.E.C. filings,” she said.

Kenneth A. Gross, a former election commission lawyer who specializes in campaign finance law, said that listing a bank loan in an annual Senate ethics report — which deals only with personal finances — would not satisfy the requirement that it be promptly disclosed to election officials during a campaign.

“They’re two different reporting regimes,” he said. “The law says if you get a loan for the purpose of funding a campaign, you have to show the original source of the loan, the terms of the loan and you even have to provide a copy of the loan document to the Federal Election Commission.”

There would have been nothing improper about Mr. Cruz obtaining bank loans for his campaign, as long as they were disclosed. But such a disclosure might have conveyed the wrong impression for his candidacy.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/us/politics/ted-cruz-wall-street-loan-senate-bid-2012.html


lololol. Cruz asked his wife to get a loan from her work and then hid it so no one in the Primary could attack him for being funded by big special interest.

But now it's come out. This dude is so fucking shady.

 

[PBY]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/us/politics/ted-cruz-wall-street-loan-senate-bid-2012.html


lololol. Cruz asked his wife to get a loan from her work and then hid it so no one in the Primary could attack him for being funded by big special interest.

But now it's come out. This dude is so fucking shady.

Yooo don't let the Donald see this, especially right before the debate on the fucking economy.

 

[B-Dubs]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/us/politics/ted-cruz-wall-street-loan-senate-bid-2012.html


lololol. Cruz asked his wife to get a loan from her work and then hid it so no one in the Primary could attack him for being funded by big special interest.

But now it's come out. This dude is so fucking shady.

That seems rather illegal, don't they need to disclose that shit?

 

[Black Mamba]

That seems rather illegal, don't they need to disclose that shit?

Of course. But it'll just warrant a fine.

Ted Cruz is the perfect hillary opponent. He's a nutbag. He's an asshole. He thinks he's smarter than everyone. And I guarantee you there are so many skeletons in his closet.

 

[B-Dubs]

Of course. But it'll just warrant a fine.

Ted Cruz is the perfect hillary opponent. He's a nutback. He's an asshole. He thinks he's smarter than everyone. And I guarantee you there are so many skeletons in his closet.

Thats what I thought, Trump is going to nail him to the wall with this.

 

[Black Republican]

That seems rather illegal, don't they need to disclose that shit?

Add Ted to the investigations list.....or nah?

 

[Cybit]

To be fair, I think the general election is probably going to hinge on something that has not happened yet.

11 months is a long time away; and some of the "fire up the base" issues (BLM / Police Brutality, Immigration, etc) may radically change in that time period. Heck - Obama even appeared to insinuate that Speaker Ryan is already looking at major criminal justice reform which may drastically change BLM goals. SCOTUS is going to decide whether to look at some of Obama's executive actions regarding immigration on Friday. Lots of the hot button topics could drastically change between now and November.

SCOTUS rulings on labor and who counts as "population" for voting purposes (eligible voters or total population, including people who are ineligible to vote), as well as affirmative action could all play major parts in the debate.

As for the white liberals vs black liberals - I always thought the demographics / geography of the two groups gave black liberals more presidential voting power - since many white liberals tend to live near each other in solidly blue states, weakening electoral power (since winning a state by 5% or 10% is irrelevant)? I am just thinking of places like Seattle and San Francisco, though.

 

[ivysaur12]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/us/politics/ted-cruz-wall-street-loan-senate-bid-2012.html


lololol. Cruz asked his wife to get a loan from her work and then hid it so no one in the Primary could attack him for being funded by big special interest.

But now it's come out. This dude is so fucking shady.

New York values!!

 

[And_Gignac]

Well.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx

Oh. Those numbers arent that terrible. Socialism is a politically loaded term (the only concept that has an evident political meaning in that list), of course you will see a divide in those who would support (liberal leaning) and those who dont (right wing). And now with a face put on it I think this number is even more irrelevant.

 

[Iolo]

January surprise for Ted!

I wonder which oppo research campaign seeded that to the Times.