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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops

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dabig2

Member
Liberals have moved left. I can show you graphs or you can compare Obama's presidency to the last two Democrats.

Well yeah, but we've moved a little to the left because if we moved anymore right then the only difference between the 2 major parties would literally be that 1 side is just less racist than the other.

My argument is that we can and should move faster back to where we were before neoconservatism ran wild. A majority actually do support quite a lot of "super left" policies today. We need to acknowledge that and work on those goals instead of concern trolling it all.
 

Makai

Member
Well yeah, but we've moved a little to the left because if we moved anymore right then the only difference between the 2 major parties would literally be that 1 side is just less racist than the other.

My argument is that we can and should move faster back to where we were before neoconservatism ran wild. A majority actually do support quite a lot of "super left" policies today. We need to acknowledge that and work on those goals instead of concern trolling it all.
We didn't move a little to the left. We moved way to the left. Way, way, way to the left. Obama is the most liberal president in 40 (forty!) years - by far.
 

Hexa

Member
Trump's going to have a limited pool to pick from because anyone with a future in politics will be hesitant to throw away their career.

It'll be Petraeus or some other well known retired military vet.
I think it'll be Petraeus because Trump mentions him a lot and it's the type of crazy thing he would do.
 

East Lake

Member
This is exactly the question my post was attempting to communicate to you.
If you want to be a moderator that's fine, but your standards seem abnormally high for my post. I imagine it bothers you more that I'm taking shots at the article than it does that my post doesn't add anything to the discussion, whatever that means in this thread.
 
Its not because of capitalism or income inequality or religion or identity politics.

It's about us having shitty brains.

I'm only half joking. Greed and tribalism are all accounted for by the brain so pls fund NIH so we can figure out how to fix this.
 
TBH it seems in my eminently unqualified opinion that there are some people at the top of the totem pole who are racist and sexist and bigoted and then another group that advocate for sexist, racist, and bigoted policies in order to reap $$$ (the latter fits with the marxist lens and the former does not) which ends up muddying the waters a bit.
 
I really hope 2016 isn't the beginning of the Democrat base wanting to send 50 bills for a Single Payer that all die in Congress as it eerily reflects the idea that the GOP would be able to repeal Obamacare without the actual numbers.
That's what Bernies campaign represents with his complete lack of understanding anything beyond their parochial desires.

It seems to boil down to wall street bashing (with nothing but slogans and an inability to propose reforms that solve current problems and not just reinstating an old law which isn't solving the current problems), free college (which I still don't understand as essential, I'd much rather have debt reform instead), and single payer (never mind the specifics or path if we dream and what it enough it comes trues)."Yeah well agree with blacklivesmatter, gay rights, immigrations rights. But I'll be damned if we really raise their banner as our own, this is our movement they just get a ticket to the show"
 
TBH it seems in my eminently unqualified opinion that there are some people at the top of the totem pole who are racist and sexist and bigoted and then another group that advocate for sexist, racist, and bigoted policies in order to reap $$$ (the latter fits with the marxist lens and the former does not) which ends up muddying the waters a bit.
I see things much more as webs of interconnectedness not a ladder of heriarchy.
 
I really hope 2016 isn't the beginning of the Democrat base wanting to send 50 bills for a Single Payer that all die in Congress as it eerily reflects the idea that the GOP would be able to repeal Obamacare without the actual numbers.

Should they instead send 50 bills for more harshly regulating deductibles that also die in congress?
 
I just heard that anime line on Chris Hayes. WTF?!

I mean... the Alt Right is basically #GamerGate and #GamerGate loves anime so the Alt-Right loves anime.

Considering that "Alt Right" just means "Neo-Nazi"... it is odd, certainly. Maybe they don't know anime is from Japan? Still honoring the Germany-Japan alliance from WW2?
 

East Lake

Member
No?

Coates's Atlantic piece on reparations is still one of the most brilliant long form articles I've read in some time.
I didn't find it to be that great or serious. One thing that's probably easy to point out is that the precedent he uses about the holocaust is a pretty narrow one, either because he didn't know how reparations were gamed and stolen from survivors or didn't want to include that detail to muddy up the story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxMkavCbums&t=3m0s

Not to mention Isreal itself is one of the most racist and violent states there is after all that healing.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
I really hope 2016 isn't the beginning of the Democrat base wanting to send 50 bills for a Single Payer that all die in Congress as it eerily reflects the idea that the GOP would be able to repeal Obamacare without the actual numbers.
That's what Bernies campaign represents with his complete lack of understanding anything beyond their parochial desires.
You two have concocted that shift in behavior without any indication of it happening. Acting like Bernie's actions are leading to this is simply a doom and gloom attitude.
It seems to boil down to wall street bashing (with nothing but slogans and an inability to propose reforms that solve current problems and not just reinstating an old law which isn't solving the current problems), free college (which I still don't understand as essential, I'd much rather have debt reform instead), and single payer (never mind the specifics or path if we dream and what it enough it comes trues)."Yeah well agree with blacklivesmatter, gay rights, immigrations rights. But I'll be damned if we really raise their banner as our own, this is our movement they just get a ticket to the show"
Bernie as proposed reform beyond just Glass-Stegal. The quality is to your discretion.
 

Hexa

Member
I really hope 2016 isn't the beginning of the Democrat base wanting to send 50 bills for a Single Payer that all die in Congress as it eerily reflects the idea that the GOP would be able to repeal Obamacare without the actual numbers.

The primary trait of 'AltRight' more than anything is self loathing, which extends to hating the world around them. They seek nationalism and race superiority type things to support them because they lack a sense of individuality that they are satisfied with. Anime has more escapism than any other medium and hence appeals strongly to those that are fed up with reality. Gaming is also similar though its moving away from being so, hence GamerGate.
 

dabig2

Member
We didn't move a little to the left. We moved way to the left. Way, way, way to the left. Obama is the most liberal president in 40 (forty!) years - by far.

You're still explaining the problem with this country. Neoconservatives hijacked this country so far to the right that even the ACA is now seen as the most liberal accomplishment of Obama's socialist agenda, an agenda that formerly included 'fixing' social security which almost handed the Conservatives something that they've dreamed of for 70 years.

We can repeal Obamacare! And defund parenthood!

I mean, if you want to put things like single payer and $15 minimum wage on those levels then ok. But in a reality where we can't even get the Senate to ratify a disabled treaty, then there's quite a lot of things we can add to the "pie in the sky" pile that you can mock.
 
I want someone to use "DINO" unironically because that would be awesome.



It's weird because hardcore socialists on Twitter hate New Atheists because New Atheists constantly simplify all of society's ills to a single source (religion) instead of noticing that, while a factor in many forms of sexism and homophobia, it's not the only factor... They also criticize New Atheists for constantly being assholes (which is true!), but they're assholes to everyone. I don't think they get the irony.

Basically: Hardcore Socialists=New Atheists except hardcore socialists think that income inequality is the root of all evil whereas new atheists think that religion is the root of all evil.
No. We can be limited by dialectical materialism sometimes, but all evils are not seen to be caused by Capitalism, merely that they are expressed most universally by Capitalism. That is to say that Capitalism reinforces problems like racism and sexism or homophobia.

I would say that as a socialist, I don't even hate capitalists. Capital itself, and the assumptions that go with it, creates capitalists.

The point of addressing resource distribution is to decouple resource distribution from status allocation because it's harmful to the dignity of the 'losers' in the system and somewhat permanently 'cripples' people that could be the source of much good in the world. The psychological distortions find expression and solidification through the economic system in a way that further encourages their expression. Therefore, changing the system of resource distribution and fostering worker self-management fosters species cooperation in ways that resist the expression or formation of those psychological distortions.
 
When considering Dems complaining that Bern would harm their electability, it should also be considered that the DNC has been doing a bang up job of that by itself.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He'd provide an excellent scapegoat for their continued failure, tho. No doubt about that.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
When considering Dems complaining that Bern would harm their electability, it should also be considered that the DNC has been doing a bang up job of that by itself.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

He'd provide an excellent scapegoat for their continued failure, tho. No doubt about that.

Or there are more than one issue that leads to a loss of seats and that a potentially damaging person at the top of the ticket could wipe out good candidates.

Why do you think we all want Trump?
 

User 406

Banned
Reparations are necessary to combat white supremacy because refusal to face responsibility allows white supremacy to continue. It is not sufficient to pay lip service to the crime and say, "yeah, that was bad", while disregarding the repercussions and harm that continue to this day. It is not sufficient to presume that the only ills that affect the black community are ills that also affect portions of the white community, and to only promote policies that target just those ills, with the thin pretense that the rising tide will lift all boats, especially in light of how historically such aid has been diverted disproportionately to white people while being shunted away from black people.

What is needed is direct confrontation of the problem. Direct acknowledgement that yes, America is racist, and we must tackle the problem head on. We can't just dismiss it as a side effect of Capitalism, and we can't just assume fighting wealth inequality will fix it. What is needed are policies directly targeted towards helping black people, specifically for that purpose, not just as a secondary effect of helping disadvantaged groups of white people. What is needed are reparations.


I didn't find it to be that great or serious. One thing that's probably easy to point out is that the precedent he uses about the holocaust is a pretty narrow one, either because he didn't know how reparations were gamed and stolen from survivors or didn't want to include that detail to muddy up the story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxMkavCbums&t=3m0s

So wait, since some assholes hijacked the reparations, that means it was a bad idea to have them? If I steal your paycheck, was it a bad idea for your boss to pay you in the first place? This doesn't make even the least bit of sense.

Not to mention Isreal itself is one of the most racist and violent states there is after all that healing.

The implication here is that if you try to set things right with someone you've harmed, they'll become a monster. So better not try to square things with black people, they'll just get worse. Are you serious?
 

User1608

Banned
How dare you insult our moe!

urusei-yatsura-ova-10-girly-eyes-measles.jpg
Forgive me!
 

East Lake

Member
So wait, since some assholes hijacked the reparations, that means it was a bad idea to have them? If I steal your paycheck, was it a bad idea for your boss to pay you in the first place? This doesn't make even the least bit of sense.

The implication here is that if you try to set things right with someone you've harmed, they'll become a monster. So better not try to square things with black people, they'll just get worse. Are you serious?
It makes plenty of sense. In the article we were talking about ta-nehisi coates says that the discussion on reparations will lead america into some sort healing or reckoning for the nation's crimes, and as a positive example he uses Israel's holocaust reparations, because GDP increased and some historian said it was a good thing or something. All the while not realizing in many cases it failed to provide for survivors, was prone to corruption, and didn't lead to any cultural reckoning, and basically negates the whole premise of his article. I suppose the feeling is more important though.
 

leroidys

Member
Kasich back ahead of Rubio on RCP. Trump's still gonna win, but I'll be happy to just be less wrong than all the people that picked Rubio, Jeb, Carson, and Walker for our contest after Kasich comes closer to winning than any of those other fools.

Oh man, I almost forgot already that Walker even ran. It was so satisfying seeing that piece of shit crash and burn.
 
Kylo Ren is to Vader what the Trump movement is to actual fascist movements of the past? A not-entirely-correct imitation without an ethos without the pretense of dignity that their predecessors had, but which desperately looks up to fascists of past and tries to mimic them? Kylo Ren is like a cosplay of Darth Vader, Trump is like a cosplay of an evil, authoritarian politician that seizes power.

Anyone here read slatestarcodex or popehat?

Popehat is too libertarian. He's good at explaining the law to Alt Right losers and explaining criminal justice to conservatives, but otherwise, the content isn't that interesting I think.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Kylo Ren is to Vader what the Trump movement is to actual fascist movements of the past? A not-entirely-correct imitation without an ethos without the pretense of dignity that their predecessors had, but which desperately looks up to fascists of past and tries to mimic them? Kylo Ren is like a cosplay of Darth Vader, Trump is like a cosplay of an evil, authoritarian politician that seizes power.



Popehat is too libertarian. He's good at explaining the law to Alt Right losers and explaining criminal justice to conservatives, but otherwise, the content isn't that interesting I think.

I enjoy the weird venn diagram of the blog - and am definitely more on the liberal free speech side than most. Though I guess it depends if you're reading Ken's posts or ClarkHat / Randazza. Not really sure Ken strikes me as libertarian - he's pretty liberal generally speaking.

Also; I think this election is weird to me. I'm to the left of Hilary but probably to the right of Sanders. I like Sanders' overall points (primarily that corporatism has beaten down capitalism, and the wealth inequality bit), but some of his proposals (single payer system, free college) worry me due to the secondary effects.
 

User 406

Banned
It makes plenty of sense. In the article we were talking about ta-nehisi coates says that the discussion on reparations will lead america into some sort healing or reckoning for the nation's crimes, and as a positive example he uses Israel's holocaust reparations, because GDP increased and some historian said it was a good thing or something. All the while not realizing in many cases it failed to provide for survivors, was prone to corruption, and didn't lead to any cultural reckoning, and basically negates the whole premise of his article.

Germany paid reparations to Israel because it was responsible for the Holocaust. It took responsibility, acknowledged the crimes, and tried to make amends. The reparations ultimately did help Israel out economically, and any malfeasance on Israel's part in how those reparations were handled was Israel's fault. Israel's movement towards apartheid also isn't the fault of Germany's reparations.

In our case, we aren't going to be making reparations to a separate country, we are going to be making them to our own citizens. Racial injustice is a problem that must be addressed, and it won't be addressed by never enacting policies that attack it directly. If you really believe such reconciliation is impossible because of corruption, then you might as well just give up on any damn thing the government could try to do to improve peoples' lives.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Another one bites the dust...

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/s...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court has rejected another challenge to President Barack Obama's health care overhaul.

The justices on Tuesday left in place lower court rulings that dismissed a lawsuit against the national health care law. The suit argues that the law violates the provision of the Constitution that requires tax-raising bills to originate in the House of Representatives.

The court has twice turned back major challenges to the law, in opinions written by Chief Justice John Roberts in 2012 and in June. The court also has allowed family-owned businesses with religious objections to opt out of paying for contraceptives for women covered under their health plans. The Pacific Legal Foundation backed the latest lawsuit, filed on behalf of small-business owner Matt Sissel.
 
Black people and Latinos, uhh, haven't been drawn to the Republican party over the last 8 months:

"Has the primary made you more or less favorable to the Republican party?"

African Americans: 57% less favorable, 5% more favorable (-52)

Latinos: 45% less favorable, 13% more favorable (-32)

Suburban voters: 43% less favorable, 19% more favorable (-23)

Independents: 32% less favorable, 12% more favorable (-21)

Whites: 40% less favorable, 22% more favorable (-18)

"Has the primary made you more or less favorable to the Democratic party?"

African Americans: 29% more favorable, 5% less favorable (+24)

Latinos: 29% more favorable, 17% less favorable (+12)

Independents: 14% more favorable, 18% less favorable (-4)

Suburban voters: 28% less favorable, 17% more favorable (-11)

Whites: 33% less favorable, 14% more favorable (-19)

Basically, America's parties are simplifying to the white party vs. the non-white party in many cases...

Also, I don't understand white women sometimes...

CZF7LNqVIAQKZMJ.png


Donald "Nice tits, no brains" Trump is leading the GOP vs. Hillary for the Dems and you dislike each party more equally? Weird.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Suburban women definitely lines up with my family. I think you're going to see huge suburban gains if Trump is the nominee, especially among women vs Hillary.
 

East Lake

Member
Germany paid reparations to Israel because it was responsible for the Holocaust. It took responsibility, acknowledged the crimes, and tried to make amends. The reparations ultimately did help Israel out economically, and any malfeasance on Israel's part in how those reparations were handled was Israel's fault. Israel's movement towards apartheid also isn't the fault of Germany's reparations.
I mean sure. That's in line with the Coates article. If you don't care about results, ignore the history, corruption, and how it changed the society, but only narrowly focus on the gesture it was wildly successful. This is probably why Coates is the chosen one among white upper class liberals.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Typical that this den of Hillary advocates are slandering the virulent racist Bernie Sanders for his refusal to pay immediately for reparations out of his own pocket to only professional sportsmen in order to cover up his blatant victory in the NH primary as proven by today's exit polls. Palin's e-mail release will probably put her in jail before the election. Mitt Romney hasn't paid taxes once in his entire life, not even sales taxes.the state is legitimate..."The State represents violence in a concentrated and organized form. The individual has a soul, but as the State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"...Gandhi at Oakland Bay Bridge plane pregnant pilots reparations TRUMP ICE...DRINK TRUMP ICE...ERROR...ERROR...FEED ERROR...PC LOAD LETTER...nobody's got a worse deal than the Kurds. It's terrible, it's a horrible deal. It's shameful what we did to the Kurds...
 
The best way to counter racism is to pass an amnesty bill and start bringing it several million immigrants of color a year.

Sheer numbers will force both parties into being non-racist parties and the competition will force good ideas about treating racism.

... And mass immigration will massively reduce poverty of millions and will grow the economy.

#DoItPaulRyan
 

User 406

Banned
I mean sure. That's in line with the Coates article. If you don't care about results, ignore the history, corruption, and how it changed the society, but only narrowly focus on the gesture it was wildly successful. This is probably why Coates is the chosen one among white upper class liberals.

Way to ignore the rest of my post. And most of my previous post for that matter. Germany did a lot to change its culture in the aftermath, with stronger laws and a dedicated policy of education about the subject. The monetary reparations to Israel were part of that, and as much as you'd like to trivialize it, Israel's economy was struggling badly at the time, and the reparations really did help them out. I agree that Israel didn't help the survivors the way they should have, but again, the corruption on that end wasn't something Germany could control. The same is not true for what we need to do, and even so, the potential for corruption doesn't invalidate good policy. If you're going to advocate socialist wealth redistribution with no concerns about how that could be corrupted, but object to reparations for black people with, "but corruption", then you're just parroting the welfare queens line. And considering your little "chosen one" bon mot and your complete refusal to acknowledge exactly what Coates, and BLM, and pretty much everyone genuinely interested in racial justice is talking about, the chip on your shoulder about this fits the description.
 

East Lake

Member
Way to ignore the rest of my post. And most of my previous post for that matter. Germany did a lot to change its culture in the aftermath, with stronger laws and a dedicated policy of education about the subject. The monetary reparations to Israel were part of that, and as much as you'd like to trivialize it, Israel's economy was struggling badly at the time, and the reparations really did help them out. I agree that Israel didn't help the survivors the way they should have, but again, the corruption on that end wasn't something Germany could control. The same is not true for what we need to do, and even so, the potential for corruption doesn't invalidate good policy. If you're going to advocate socialist wealth redistribution with no concerns about how that could be corrupted, but object to reparations for black people with, "but corruption", then you're just parroting the welfare queens line. And considering your little "chosen one" bon mot and your complete refusal to acknowledge exactly what Coates, and BLM, and pretty much everyone genuinely interested in racial justice is talking about, the chip on your shoulder about this fits the description.
I ignored it because the article itself doesn't even support what you said. Coates describes the Germans as basically begrudgingly agreeing to pay up. I'm not even advocating against reparations, I'm saying they shouldn't be supported by ill-informed articles, and provided an argument that the reparations didn't lead to the results the writer hoped for, and by extension can't be expected to solve anything by themselves, which is far more important than accepting guilt or other feel good activism.
 
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