Isolate the chemicals firing in Trump's brain and replicate it next election please
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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops
- Thread starter Diablos
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ugaboga232
Member
So what even is free choice? If you arguing a purely philosophical concept with no basis in reality then yea its hard for science to prove it but as far as whether we can choose to do A or B that is pretty well disproven.
Honestly with good enough technology (nanobots in each neuron), you could recreate the feeling of being trump or live a day through trumps eyes.
The ted cruz model would be banned due to permanent mental scarring
like the guy who said nice "win" Hillary.
Ninja Of Chaos
Member
Purely philosophical concepts that are true are the necessary truths. They have everything to do with reality...more so than scientific outcomes. And science cannot disprove if we can choose A or B. Dear lord man, are you taking in what I have been saying?
ugaboga232
Member
What have you even been saying? Can you explain the concept? Never took as much philosophy as I should have. We can only chose one thing (so its not really choice) it just feels like we can. Why do you think drug addiction is a problem.
Tl;dr explain for a dummy like me what you mean. Also im not so interested in pure philosophy if its not actually applicable to the real world. Would seem silly to base a political system on a lie.
This view of revolution is far out dated. It's not "his" revolution. Revolution is not some charismatic leader with a top down quick fix plan. It's not about angry masses and seizing control of power. Revolutions have thoughts.
What does it take to be a more human, human?
Sander's campaign is raising those questions with health care, education, prison reform, etc. And you're seeing a lot of people excited to take on that responsibility of systematically changing (not reforming) a broken and corrupt system that hurts both man and nature all along the way.
Will the revolution happen in time for the 2016 election? Don't know. But it will not be televised.
disastermouse
Banned
No, it wouldn't, because it doesn't show an exclusive one way relationship. For instance, what determines the desire to conduct the test that shows this relationship? If it's just chemicals, what makes it valid? It obliterates its own meaning in the performance of the experiment.
That is, driving the internal state from an elegant external set of tools disregards the drive to conduct the test or the tools that do this. From whence do they come? And if it's just 'frisky dust', it obliterates the drive to determine the truth as some sort of higher organizing principle, as it too is but 'frisky dust'. Did you decide to do the test or did the chemicals, in some way that science cannot determine and probably never will, decide to do the test? If 'frisky dust' decided to do the test, then there was no decision and all 'proof' is rendered meaningless.
And all of this falls prey to the myth of the given, the myth that the perceptions and their extensions simply describe a pre-existing world with increasingly exact detail.
disastermouse
Banned
ugaboga232
Member
I am saying all we are is a mad dance of chemicals with an X factor of qualia or whatever (hopefully that nulls the preceding but everything makes too much sense with it). Perhaps im misunderstanding you in what exactly is the inside but I don't really care about the internal state/qualia fitting into science if all other thoughts and behaviors do.
Ninja Of Chaos
Member
Explain why free choice can never be proven, or how I interpret the situation and why? I am working on that as part of my research, so I can say something about the second if you wanna.
As for the first, the easiest problem with disproving free-choice is that we cannot prove causality. I.E. even if the universe is deterministic, we do not necessarily lack free choice. If you wanna read more on this whole thing, get some books on modal logic first.
disastermouse
Banned
You cannot disregard or strip the internal experience from the realm of the 'real'. There is no reasonable argument that reduces consciousness (interiority) to externality, because the very nature of the tools involved (science) take as a priori assumptions things that cannot then be proven by those tools.
Science is great as far as it goes, it simply cannot ever go all the way because it cannot examine itself in a way that is sufficiently accurate.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Free will tangents of this depth are extra pointless because even if you take the conclusion as true there is no functional impact that could possibly have on the world or yourself. It's all an illusion indistinguishable and indispensable from reality therefore....what exactly? Nothing really follows.
ugaboga232
Member
You are in neuro too? nice to know we have a small following here. Can you just explain free choice as well as give your interpretation. I also thought of free will as, i can eat an orange or an apple now and I have the ability to choose which one. My new view is depending on the inputs (aka the state of my brain) I can and will only choose one if that same instance was repeated infinite times.
That is where you are wrong, drug addiction being treated as a willpower/free will deficit and being thrown in jail causes real damage when treatment is far more appropriate.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
I don't think it was a lot; as I said before you have to take into consideration the vocal minority. Was there subtext? In part, but if that had been said after the caucus I would be more inclined to agree. To me it's not really a conspiracy theory unless it's explaining something that's happened or happening. Saying DWS shielded Hillary by scheduling fewer debates to help her win is a conspiracy theory.
Let's not bring up unpledged delegates, that's a hollow victory in a democratic society. Are you mostly criticizing the media for that characterization? She definitely won, but I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about the virtual tie in regards to percentage. There's no question it was a decisive victory when you look at pledged delegates. I honestly think it has less to do with Bernie and more about how Iowa works: how you perform versus expectations matters more than if you win or lose. Rubio is a prime example of that.
I wish he had done better considering the demographics. While I think the type of political revolution he imagines is a long shot, it's still early and as the Republicans are showing attitudes can change swiftly. It may never be what he envisions but that doesn't stop it from becoming bigger than it currently is. I'd really like to see how much Hillary and Bernie spent per vote. That goes back to the narrative aspect: if Bernie spent less money per vote than Hillary, that could be taken as a moral victory. Some would say doing that well against Hillary's "political machine" is a victory into itself. I don't latch too strongly onto any perspective, but rather search for bits of truth.
Debating whether choice is an illusion is interesting, I guess, but it is a little closer to the bedrock in terms of policy than I was expecting.
I'm not sure you have to disavow the concept of free will to make this argument (or that, like, it's practical to do so). Drug addiction is a disease, it requires treatment. Diseases commonly impinge on our ability to exercise our will.
I'm not sure you have to disavow the concept of free will to make this argument (or that, like, it's practical to do so). Drug addiction is a disease, it requires treatment. Diseases commonly impinge on our ability to exercise our will.
disastermouse
Banned
You can describe the exact chemical and mechanical experience of an orgasm but that's not the same as the internal experience of an orgasm. The experience is not the same as its exterior referent, description, or mechanical process. An exterior understanding can provide insight, but it is not the same as the actual experience.
And, strictly speaking, there are no external explanations or assessments that can adequately capture the internal experience. The internal experience has its own reality that is immediately accessible before any explanation exists.
disastermouse
Banned
Goddamn. You just can't have conversations of this quality (in a politics thread no less) anywhere else on the internet.
Thank you GAF, for being GAF.
ugaboga232
Member
Oh I agree completely, the actual perception is completely divorced from it. I would argue that the internal mind may be the same for everyone given the same brain but there is no way and no theory thats even plausible for how an internal world is created. I am just concerned with the external world because thats what we need to determine policy around (the drive for excellence you mention is probably due to some social circuit which we can see in monkeys as well, and greed is just the dopamine circuit applied to an abstract condition which it was never created to deal with).
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Yeah, uh, worldviews that include free will haven't eschewed conceptions of mental illness, anti-depressants, impairment, etc.
I mean the larger point is of it being pointless to society/life. It's impossible to act/live as if it was not real.
disastermouse
Banned
Yes, completely disregarding brain states or functions is problematic but that's not the same as reducing all choices to brain states.
Hell, there are Buddhist monks who do practices that have a physical effect on the mechanics of the brain. The conversation between internal and external is a two-way street.
Ninja Of Chaos
Member
Lol, nah. I am horrible at biology (or any application based study). Math/Logic person here, and writing a paper on free choice.
Anyways, I will do my best.
Free choice is what makes us all un-unique. Think of it completely abstractly: if a set of people were all born in the exact same place, without hunger or sight or any sense at all, and as adults have no memories of anything and no interactions with anyone, their choices would be equal. So you make choice a property (call it "c").
The will is the set of memories and wants and biological needs and....well everything. Choice then becomes a property on it. So say all the set of wills (previous sentence) are W. Choice is the property that acts on it. I.E. cW.
So free choice is not like a switch on gravity: if you hate apples, you will pick oranges. But it is the steering wheel.
That is my take on it. It's unproven of course.
I think it's sorta pointless for this thread perhaps but I think it does have the potential to change the way you think about things. To me if the human brain is entirely a mechanical process then that has the potential to change how you look at moral problems. For instance Sam Harris I think essentially believes this. The end conclusion being if you take a person, whatever they do in their life depends on the internal state of their brain/body plus whatever comes in from the outside environment, and not any sort of untethered decision making, so Hitler would have always been Hitler, and Gandhi would always have been gandhi, it's only way too difficult to see it ahead of time.
In that sense it could change the way you look at people, maybe for better or worse, but whatever way you look was already bound to happen!
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Free will and consciousness are an illusion therefore we should change the way we think about things. That's not self-coherent. You're incorporating the conclusion into a system that presumes it's falsehood.
disastermouse
Banned
And science can be used to help with finding a replacement for resource allocation, because let's face it, we're facing very real external limits of the system as it presently exists. We'll need to find a solution. Repression of the instinct (probably the wrong word) toward displaying excellence is not a step forward, but at some point, either repression or transcendence will be required.
And hence, you hear the slogan, "Socialism or Barbarism." There are many levels from which to view this slogan, however. If you read the Communist Manifesto, you see a call to action from apathy, but if you read Das Capital, you read a much more elegant explanation of the forces at work.
Marx was speaking to two totally different audiences in these works, and he also suffered from the delusion that his complement to Hegel was a refutation of Hegel and many present-day Marxists suffer from the same delusion.
ugaboga232
Member
It is very possible to accept that our decisions are not our own and create policy that takes that into account as suffering is still very real. It is a very weird and foreign thought that will take decades at least to set in but all signs point to it.
Eh I wouldn't go as far to say its a two way street, I think its only one way (otherwise mind over matter would be a thing). The practices they do have real physical changes you can see and its not something unobservable (though they are super cool).
I think we are saying the same thing? That its all an input/output kinda deal? That if you have the exact same brain as me (which takes into account all of your Will things) then we will make the same choices if presented with the same problem. Is that a fair representation?
Well the point is, what even is a disease? Its just an abnormal state (for some people the abnormal is their normal), and so its still just a state. There never was an ability to exercise will is the problem. What do you think psychological addiction is? We are wired to want more of what makes us happy. This system was not created in the context of money, drugs, or many integral concepts of the modern world which is why (at least one reason) depression rates have soared from estimates of pre-industrial civilization. I think its an important fact that say the republicans completely ignore (especially ben carson, he should know better) with regards to drug addiction (i guess now they are changing since its not just minorities being affected)
Brawndo Addict
Banned
The future will be competitive (e)sports all the time forever. And maybe some art or whatever 
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
Trump didn't add much at his speech tonight. Mostly mentioned how the media painted his second place finish very negatively, while they touted Rubio's third place finish as tremendous. I didn't get to hear the Scott Brown endorsement since Adele's people took the video down since Trump plays Rolling in The Deep at his rallies. I still believe in Trump. The raw votes for him in a caucus system were tremendous. If Kasich and co. can bump Rubio down to fourth in NH that would be great. Trump just needs to regroup and continue his BDSM relationship with the media, asphyxiate the narrative.
I don't really follow what you're saying. You're saying if it was an illusion, nobody would change their behavior?
ugaboga232
Member
Well the reality is that its a sad farce that I, a bag of chemicals, is trying to convince another bag of chemicals that we are really just bags of chemicals. My chemicals at this time have resulted in me doing this action because its the low energy path. The reason why is because of all my experiences. I would like to convince everyone that this is how we work because thats what I think and if we craft policy to account for this more people can be happy (because this bag of chemicals somehow has an effect on my feelings).
disastermouse
Banned
Consider for a moment that mind-over-matter is simply the same as science in its embryonic form. That is, science as an exact tool sure as fuck didn't start that way, but it's been so successful that insight into the other disciplines has been well nigh abandoned, and in a way, colonized by science and reduced to the dictates demanded by science.
I work in nursing, as an example. So we work on what can be measured. Unfortunately, it has caused a general decrease in the quality of care because so much of what nursing is cannot be measured very well. That's a bad example, because it's also been distorted by the demands of profit, but it is a real-world example. The method by which you look at a thing sets the limits of the thing studied.
ugaboga232
Member
If thats true I look forward to when telekinesis becomes a thing (i secretly hope that its a two way street but all the research which as you note is problematic but i still find convincing seems like its a one way street for now).
Ninja Of Chaos
Member
I will mess up the quote so i'll respond this way:
Nah, the make-up of the brain has nothing to do with it at all. I said in the first part that if you take away all biological uniqueness, free-choice is equal in all. Not that they would choose the same thing...just that, to put it banally, they are all running on the same line of code. The choices in that situation (the abstract) would all be random, and irrelevant to the discussion. I just put that there to show why (I think) free-choice is an embedded property in our reality, regardless of brain make up.
Including the Will....well, let me put it this way: Choice becomes the steering wheel in car where you don't control the speed of.
Nah, the make-up of the brain has nothing to do with it at all. I said in the first part that if you take away all biological uniqueness, free-choice is equal in all. Not that they would choose the same thing...just that, to put it banally, they are all running on the same line of code. The choices in that situation (the abstract) would all be random, and irrelevant to the discussion. I just put that there to show why (I think) free-choice is an embedded property in our reality, regardless of brain make up.
Including the Will....well, let me put it this way: Choice becomes the steering wheel in car where you don't control the speed of.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
I'm saying that the 'fact' of free will is only meaningful inside a system in which a self exists to appreciate it.
Or to put another way, without free will or self, there's no "behavior" to change in the first place.
ugaboga232
Member
Ok where we differ is that I think (based on the experiments I've seen/done) that if you take away all uniqueness you would get the same response.
Well yeah, because although she won she was also something of a loser on the night. For the establishment candidate, with all her name recognition and backing, to come within a hair's breadth of losing to an independent and a socialist most people hadn't even heard of a year ago is pretty stunning.
disastermouse
Banned
All viewpoints are limited by the tools by which they are appraised.
Strictly speaking, consciousness is the only thing to which we have direct access without resort to perceptions and their extensions.
Man, you could make some quantum leaps if you meditated (and I could make some real leaps if I studied neurobiology).
ugaboga232
Member
I'm not saying we don't exist or are biological zombies, i'm saying we are complete slaves to our biology and we should accept that and move forward with better policies. There is a self but that self is in the passenger seat even if it feels like the driver seat.
Ninja Of Chaos
Member
You can't take away all uniqueness in any real setting. Doing that is just a mind-game used to understand what free-choice would entail.
ugaboga232
Member
Yea I don't think we can answer the two way or one way street with science in its current form (unless you isolate every variable and see somehow that meditation does something completely unexplainable). I have meditated and enjoyed it but I have not done so in a while or really ever gotten to a high level of it. But hopefully we can agree that a lot of the policies we have especially regarding criminal justice are based on a system that probably is not actually accurate of reality?
I don't think that's necessarily true. For instance "you" could still "want" to be a healthy weight because morbid obesity might cause discomfort.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Oh my god. Can we get back to the polls overload instead of "i just read some theory on reddit or philosophy 101"
disastermouse
Banned
But you're comparing internal sciences that basically halted altogether pre-enlightenment to a science that has grown exponentially. It's not really a fair fight.
As for telekinesis, that's really beside the point. Consciousness is the only thing to which we have direct, unmediated, access to, and to reduce all things to externals requires at least one step beyond consciousness. How you look at a thing is as important as what you are looking at.
ugaboga232
Member
There are ways to get 99.999% of the way there in reality though. So what you are saying is that two identical brains (lets say wiped of all will characteristics but still brains) will give different results? I would argue that is not the case but it will probably take some time before we can get close enough to making two brains the exact same (but it is coming).
I agree although I'm more bearing on Trump now. The best case scenario in NH is:
1. Trump
2. Cruz
3. Kasich
4. Rubio
Rubio being bumped down is imperative.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Anil Dash: "I think some White Supremacists are using taking up the BernieBro stuff to be able to troll Hillary's feminist fans and pretend its just a political thing. I don't think his fans are that big of assholes."
BernieBros/The Intercept and other ridiculous organizations: "CORRUPT LYING MILLIONAIRE, YOU WILL BE PURGED IN THE REVOLUTION!"
*Eight hours of this later*
Anil Dash: "You know what, my theory was wrong, Bernie Sanders' young male loud aggressive supporters are that big of assholes."
Rolling Stone BernieBro Jeb Lund's response: "@anildash Try saying something silly about Star Trek or feminism."
Good god.
BernieBros/The Intercept and other ridiculous organizations: "CORRUPT LYING MILLIONAIRE, YOU WILL BE PURGED IN THE REVOLUTION!"
*Eight hours of this later*
Anil Dash: "You know what, my theory was wrong, Bernie Sanders' young male loud aggressive supporters are that big of assholes."
Rolling Stone BernieBro Jeb Lund's response: "@anildash Try saying something silly about Star Trek or feminism."
Good god.
Ninja Of Chaos
Member
HEY! I get paid to think about this stuff.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
New page, let's leave it aside. I'm on 100ppp but still, it's played out and I too would like a return to politics.
ugaboga232
Member
I bring it up because depression is going to overtake cardiac problems soon if it already hasnt as most debilitating illness (and thats just one of many mental illnesses). It costs us a ton of money in the economy, contributes to all the gun deaths, and is a very very real problem.
Ninja Of Chaos
Member
....I am not saying that at all. I said the make-up of the brain does not matter.
Also, 99% of an infinite set...still leaves an infinite amount of things you cannot account for.
But yeah, I wanna go back to relaxing and reading about politics too.
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