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[Aaron Strife]

Hm, one is clearly a staged photo, one is a security camera. What an elitist!

 

[PhoenixDark]

Which is absolutely nothing that attracts democrats or independent voters. Seriously--look at everything you listed. How in the world would any of those bring in independent voters?

At what point can we have this discussion without discussing the general election? I'm talking about the republican primary. I'm talking about conservative voters. Not independents, not democrats. Walker is running for the republican nomination, and the people who will decide that will love his record.

 

[Plinko]

define independent. Are we talking "left leaning", "right leaning" or "true swing voter" independent? I could see a high turnout with Walker among right leaning voters in Fall 2016. They finally get a guy that is a "true conservative" and not settle on a moderate in Bush 3 like their last nominees going back to Bush 1.

I can't possibly imagine that a right-leaning voter is going to sit out any election because their candidate is "not conservative enough." In fact, I believe polls recently showed that it really doesn't happen that often.

From what I've read, a left-leaning voter is far more likely to sit out voting in an election.

At what point can we have this discussion without discussing the general election? I'm talking about the republican primary. I'm talking about conservative voters. Not independents, not democrats. Walker is running for the republican nomination, and the people who will decide that will love his record.

Never. They're intertwined.

 

[benjipwns]

Bachelors in political science/international relations

 

[PhoenixDark]

Never. They're intertwined.

No, the nominee will be determined by one of the most conservative batches of primaries in recent memory. Whoever wins will move right in order to secure victory. I posted the primary schedule for Feb/March a couple days ago...almost half of the states in Feb and March are in the south. This wasn't the case in 2012. In fact this happened in protest to Romney: many primaries moved up because Romney (allegedly) had an easier path through sympathetic states.

What independents and democrats think is irrelevant to this topic. Walker's record appeals to the very people who will determine the GOP nominee.

 

[Ecotic]

Jordan.gif

What's wrong with a poli sci/international realtions dual degree program? I have more degrees than I'm proud to admit, but I had a lot more fun and learned more getting my political science/international degrees than I later did getting my business degrees. You learn cool stuff in the poli sci/international relations program like East Asian, European Union, and Middle East studies and American foreign policy, American Intelligence Agencies, terrorism, and southern politics. In business after the core classes in accounting, marketing, management, and economics you're taking 2 years of crap like spreadsheet regression analysis and figuring out the R^2 value and degrees of freedom. Hardly the big picture. I'm going to take a wild stab here and say the Master of Public Administration is no different.

 

[RustyNails]

I like the fact that Walker's union busting is brought to every discussion. Last I checked Americans largely supported unions and this will be his double edged sword. It will save him in the primaries but destroy him in the general, especially if Hillary is running a total opposite economic populist campaign.

 

[ivysaur12]

loooooool

 

[ivysaur12]

No, the nominee will be determined by one of the most conservative batches of primaries in recent memory. Whoever wins will move right in order to secure victory. I posted the primary schedule for Feb/March a couple days ago...almost half of the states in Feb and March are in the south. This wasn't the case in 2012. In fact this happened in protest to Romney: many primaries moved up because Romney (allegedly) had an easier path through sympathetic states.

What independents and democrats think is irrelevant to this topic. Walker's record appeals to the very people who will determine the GOP nominee.

Nate Cohn echoed my thoughts on this yesterday. If the GOP primary was a video game, Walker would be easiest character to play as. But it's not clear if he's good at playing himself.
EDIT: double posted like a monster

 

[AndyD]

What's wrong with a poli sci/international realtions dual degree program? I have more degrees than I'm proud to admit, but I had a lot more fun and learned more getting my political science/international degrees than I later did getting my business degrees. You learn cool stuff in the poli sci/international relations program like East Asian, European Union, and Middle East studies and American foreign policy, American Intelligence Agencies, terrorism, and southern politics. In business after the core classes in accounting, marketing, management, and economics you're taking 2 years of crap like spreadsheet regression analysis and figuring out the R^2 value and degrees of freedom. Hardly the big picture. I'm going to take a wild stab here and say the Master of Public Administration is no different.

Nothing in and of itself, but it in no way automatically qualifies someone as a politics expert. Those degrees are a dime a dozen at many institutions. A law degree is the same, it confers no political expertise.

 

[RustyNails]

Nothing in and of itself, but it in no way automatically qualifies someone as a politics expert. Those degrees are a dime a dozen at many institutions. A law degree is the same, it confers no political expertise.

I'm afraid I disagree with this sentiment. OK, maybe they do not become an expert on international relations in 4 years, but would you rather have a person who studied Nasserism in school involved in middle east diplomacy or would you rather have a pedestrian fool with no insight into the matter, and all of the political framework that is in place in the region?

 

[benjipwns]

you're taking 2 years of crap like spreadsheet regression analysis and figuring out the R^2 value and degrees of freedom. Hardly the big picture. I'm going to take a wild stab here and say the Master of Public Administration is no different.

This is "proper" graduate poli sci, except MPA really. MPA is the study of how to work at a job.

What's wrong with a poli sci/international realtions dual [bachelor's] degree program?

As a qualification for being a "political/public policy expert" on the equivalent level of a surgeon?

 

[Ecotic]

Nothing in and of itself, but it in no way automatically qualifies someone as a politics expert. Those degrees are a dime a dozen at many institutions. A law degree is the same, it confers no political expertise.

Well let's keep in mind the original context here, I was speaking relatively. Compared to the average American in the politico article I was quoting:

She said she had been a fan of New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie until he took a helicopter ride with, and hugged, President Obama in the wake of Hurricane Sandy in 2012. Of the president, she said, “he wants to be a dictator. I don’t know if he’s ever going to leave. My friends all told me he has to because of the First Amendment.”

Your average political science/international relations major is a genius. American politics really isn't that difficult to obtain a working understanding of and to be able to follow the naunces, so being an expert doesn't require extensive graduate education. Now if you want to work for a Washington think tank or get a good job in the State department you'll need more.

 

[Coriolanus]

As a qualification for being a "political/public policy expert" on the equivalent level of a surgeon?

You don't know enough surgeons.

#justsayian

 

[AndyD]

I'm afraid I disagree with this sentiment. OK, maybe they do not become an expert on international relations in 4 years, but would you rather have a person who studied Nasserism in school involved in middle east diplomacy or would you rather have a pedestrian fool with no insight into the matter, and all of the political framework that is in place in the region?

That's not what I meant at all.

I read the original question as what credentials make one a political expert? And I think a basic college degree in poli sci or a basic law degree is not sufficient without either demonstrated experience in the field, or a more advanced or specific degree or both. Surely it can be preferable to have a degree over not at all, but as to sufficient to be deemed an expert a la surgeon level as alluded? Still don't see it.

 

[benjipwns]

Compared to the average American in the politico article I was quoting:

Why would you assume Joan Rosicki, 67, of Phoenix, is the average American? She attended (possibly paid to attend) a Trump campaign event.

Just by attending an election related event she's already moved into the 90th percentile of Americans in political activity probably.

You don't know enough surgeons.

#justsayian

You're right, there's one key factor we're overlooking. If a surgeon kills me I don't have to choose him the next time I need surgery.

The state is a monopoly provider...

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Well let's keep in mind the original context here, I was speaking relatively. Compared to the average American in the politico article I was quoting.

There no chance she represents the average American.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Nate Cohn echoed my thoughts on this yesterday. If the GOP primary was a video game, Walker would be easiest character to play as. But it's not clear if he's good at playing himself.
EDIT: double posted like a monster

Doesn't his electoral victory record show he's pretty good at winning elections? Not even referring to the easy mode general election victories he has. He's beaten out quite a few crowded fields in republican primaries before.

 

[Coriolanus]

You're right, there's one key factor we're overlooking. If a surgeon kills me I don't have to choose him the next time I need surgery.

The state is a monopoly provider...

You're also overlooking the fact that, as Ben Carson shows us, it isn't exactly hard to be political/public policy expert on the equivalent level of a surgeon

 

[benjipwns]

You're also overlooking the fact that, as Ben Carson shows us, it isn't exactly hard to be political/public policy expert on the equivalent level of a surgeon

 

[PhoenixDark]

Are you calling Carson a war criminal/racist?

 

[Ecotic]

That's not what I meant at all.

I read the original question as what credentials make one a political expert? And I think a basic college degree in poli sci or a basic law degree is not sufficient without either demonstrated experience in the field, or a more advanced or specific degree or both. Surely it can be preferable to have a degree over not at all, but as to sufficient to be deemed an expert a la surgeon level as alluded? Still don't see it.

When benji asked what credentials make one a political expert I interpreted this as what fields of study do these experts generally come from, so I listed off the probable degrees. I don't have an issue saying an expert like the senior fellow at a Washington think tank or the State Department correspondent for the New York Times would likely have 20+ years of experience on their resume.

There no chance she represents the average American.

Why would you assume Joan Rosicki, 67, of Phoenix, is the average American? She attended (possibly paid) to attend a Trump campaign event.

You guys don't have facebook feeds? If she's not average she's certainly only one standard deviation away. I don't really interpret going to a Trump event as being politically active, more like being hypnotized by a grifter performing in the subway.

 

[benjipwns]

Are you calling Carson a ... criminal/racist?

Well...he is black.

Spoiler

And trying to become President.

 

[benjipwns]

I don't really interpret going to a Trump event as being politically active, more like being hypnotized by a grifter performing in the subway.

From the same story:

A spokeswoman for Trump said 10,000 people had signed up for free tickets (those tickets were spotted being sold on Craigslist for $100). The ballroom’s maximum occupancy was 2,158. A convention center event staffer said the fire marshall had agreed to allow twice that number inside and estimated that at least 1,000 more people would be left out in the sun.

When the door opened to let supporters into the ballroom, the first wave ran in, creating a miniature stampede.

Diane Brest, the first person in line an hour before Trump’s scheduled 2 p.m. arrival, said she had been waiting there since 4:45 a.m. “You want to make sure you get in the door,” said the transplant from New York, clutching a red Solo cup. As she spoke, security broke up a scuffle that had broken out between two men behind her over their places in line.

 

[Ecotic]

From the same story:

Yep, he grifted this poor lady out of a lot, her time, gas money, and sleep. He probably charged marked up refreshments for this nominally free rally too.

(I quoted a different lady by the way)

 

[CharlieDigital]

Are Republicans the undisputed champions of divisive politics?

What I mean by that is taking an issue and using that to compartmentalize a segment of the voters with no real intent or desire to reach a victory on said issue.

I was thinking about Trump and immigration and surely, this clown has no issues with illegal immigrants so long as he benefits from it (e.g. his cleaners, landscapers, maintenance crews for his properties, laborers, etc).

For example, immigration. Surely, there are many in the business community who generally support Republican policies who would be very upset if we were to actually take a hard line stance on illegal immigration since they depend on cheap labor. My local Wendy's and Burger King are staffed exclusively by Latinos. Every landscaping crew around here is basically Latino. I went to a carnival last weekend and it was mostly staffed by Latinos. The farms around here basically depend on illegal immigrant labor...and I'm in New Jersey! I feel like most Republicans are just using this as a divisive tool.

Abortion is another example where Republicans as a whole, behind closed doors, probably don't give a flying fuck about abortion and probably view it as a good thing in keeping down poverty. They know they will never win on this issue and they don't want to win on this issue, but they just use it as a wedge issue.

Homosexuality is another issue where I feel like majority of Republican officials probably don't give a shit personally outside of some like Huck, but use the issue to their advantage.

To some extent, you might say that the Democrats use taxes and gun control as similar tools, knowing that it's nigh impossible to raise taxes or create stricter gun control laws. But IMO, there's much more earnestness and sincerity behind those movements. One can obviously understand where people like Gabby Giffords is coming from, for example.

 

[Coriolanus]

For example, immigration. Surely, there are many in the business community who generally support Republican policies who would be very upset if we were to actually take a hard line stance on illegal immigration since they depend on cheap labor. My local Wendy's and Burger King are staffed exclusively by Latinos. Every landscaping crew around here is basically Latino. I went to a carnival last weekend and it was mostly staffed by Latinos. The farms around here basically depend on illegal immigrant labor...and I'm in New Jersey! I feel like most Republicans are just using this as a divisive tool.

I just consider that they do that because they consider it the best way to maintain the status quo, thus preserving a permanent underclass that they openly exploit.

This doesn't explain why Joe the Plumber supports such rethoric, however. They just parroting.

*dude wot wrote some bike diaries*

Indeed. Got shit done, tho.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

thanks for summing up my life

 

[Wilsongt]

So how many more clowns are we waiting to join the race?

 

[ivysaur12]

Doesn't his electoral victory record show he's pretty good at winning elections? Not even referring to the easy mode general election victories he has. He's beaten out quite a few crowded fields in republican primaries before.

He was more talking about him in the Republican field, where he's been having a lackluster primary season. And he's won elections against two flawed candidates in off election years.

On paper, he should be a slam dunk. Why isn't he?

 

[benjipwns]

Yep, he grifted this poor lady out of a lot, her time, gas money, and sleep. He probably charged marked up refreshments for this nominally free rally too.

(I quoted a different lady by the way)

I know you did, I was pointing out that this wasn't something that rolled into town that anyone could swing by. Average Americans don't attend campaign events, let alone preorder access to campaign events.

These people have high percentile political activity.

So how many more clowns are we waiting to join the race?

Kasich on July 21st, Jim Gilmore on the first week of August.

Then whatever Biden decides.

 

[NeoXChaos]

He was more talking about him in the Republican field, where he's been having a lackluster primary season. And he's won elections against two flawed candidates in off election years.

On paper, he should be a slam dunk. Why isn't he?

Sabato:

The average voter turnout in Walker’s midterm victories in 2010 and 2014 and recall win in 2012 was about 55%. But presidential turnout in 2012 was about 73%, an 18-point difference. The electorate Walker would face in 2016 will be far bigger and more Democratic than any he has seen in his statewide elections.

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-map-11-angles-on-the-electoral-college/

PD and Ivy both have solid points. Still think Bush pulls it out but Walker should not be underestimated.

 

[benjipwns]

Homosexuality is another issue where I feel like majority of Republican officials probably don't give a shit personally outside of some like Huck, but use the issue to their advantage.

Or you know, some people actually care about the rule of law and definition of words:

Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum said Monday he wants a constitutional amendment that defines marriage as between a man and a woman in all 50 states, less than three weeks after the Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage nationwide.

“I believe we need a national standard for marriage. I don't think we can have a standard from one state to another on what marriage is,” Santorum told reporters at a breakfast in Washington hosted by the Christian Science Monitor, adding that he wants “to define marriage the way it was defined for 4,000 years of human history.”

The remarks put Santorum to the right of rivals such as Texas Senator Ted Cruz and Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, who are pushing a different kind of constitutional amendment that would allow states to decide whether to allow or ban same-sex marriage, rather than an amendment that would set a national standard.

“I think that's a mistake,” Santorum said of their positions. “I argued that 10 years ago when others wanted to do that 10 years ago. You can't have a hodgepodge of marriage...it just creates too much confusion out there on a variety of different levels.”

 

[Coriolanus]

Santorum told reporters at a breakfast in Washington hosted by the Christian Science Monitor, adding that he wants “to define marriage the way it was defined for 4,000 years of human history.”

Did he just make an argument for treating women as property?

 

[benjipwns]

Did he just make an argument for treating women as property?

Yes, also, polyamory.

Or maybe not, he didn't say which 4000 years of human history.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Yes, also, polyamory.

Or maybe not, he didn't say which 4000 years of human history.

Yeah, maybe he's referring to pre-agriculture hunter-gatherer tribes, which were around for longer than we've been writing shit down. Rick Santorum: True Conservative.

 

[Coriolanus]

Yeah, maybe he's referring to pre-agriculture hunter-gatherer tribes, which were around for longer than we've been writing shit down. Scott Walker: True Conservative.

about that...

 

[ivysaur12]

Yes, also, polyamory.

Or maybe not, he didn't say which 4000 years of human history.

Well, there's only so many ways you can cut 4000 out of 6000...

 

[PhoenixDark]

He was more talking about him in the Republican field, where he's been having a lackluster primary season. And he's won elections against two flawed candidates in off election years.

On paper, he should be a slam dunk. Why isn't he?

The campaign hasn't started yet. He's entering this period in 2nd to 4th place depending on which polls you look at, which is good. Once things begin I expect his talent to really become crystal clear.

Right now it's all about flash and media. When it comes to actually stumping, debating, etc he'll be fine.

 

[Poodlestrike]

about that...

You saw nothing.

 

[NeoXChaos]

David Jolly running for Senate. Charlie Crist is likely to go for his seat.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/david-jolly-florida-senate-run-2016-120027.html?hp=r3_4

 

[Oblivion]

I think this is rather important to point out. Clinton as always been pretty left on economics



Basically what I think a lot of the "corporatist" stuff comes from is people who's political life started post 9-11 when Clinton was a NY Senator. Rather than the majority of her political life we're she was a proto-warren.

Her current self is more pure than the fake pro-wall street facade she put on to get elected in NY

And then she goes ahead and does something like this:

Hours after Hillary Clinton vowed to crack down on Wall Street, an adviser said she has no plans to push a bank break-up bill beloved by the left.

Alan Blinder, a former Federal Reserve official now advising the Clinton campaign, told Reuters Monday that she has no plans to push for the return of a banking law that separates commercial and investment banks.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/247700-adviser-clinton-wont-push-glass-steagall-bank-bill

 

[benjipwns]

"It already made a lot of sense for Charlie Crist to return to public service by representing his hometown, so today's news only brings that closer to reality," said Kevin Cate, a Crist aide and de facto spokesman who discussed the matter Monday with the former governor. "He has a heart for public service."

*vomits*

 

[PhoenixDark]

I still think Crist could have beaten Rubio in a two man race...

dude is trash tho

 

[ivysaur12]

The campaign hasn't started yet. He's entering this period in 2nd to 4th place depending on which polls you look at, which is good. Once things begin I expect his talent to really become crystal clear.

Right now it's all about flash and media. When it comes to actually stumping, debating, etc he'll be fine.

The campaign started a while back, and he's already proven not to be a very resonate speaker compared to other Republican nominees like Jeb or Rubio. Debating is not his forte.

I'm not saying he won't be the nominee, just that he's inspired no confidence thus far that he's able to channel his resume into a candidate who will win. You're way too sure that he will be the nominee.

EDIT: oh.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ilanbenmeir/scott-walker-sandwich-definition#.xf8NVk998

"savory mixture"

 

[Macho Madness]

Hoping Hills and Bern stay away from the college degree nonsense with Walker. It is not the pot of gold it may appear to be.

 

[B-Dubs]

Hoping Hills and Bern stay away from the college degree nonsense with Walker. It is not the pot of gold it may appear to be.

The media will skewer him with it if he starts getting anywhere, if they're smart they'll just sit back and watch it happen.

 

[gcubed]

Have we gotten a new PD quote saying that Wisconsin isn't "Bad bad" so therefore Walker is an electoral force to be reckoned with?

 

[benjipwns]

I was happy to see this this morning:

At the very least her campaign is paying lip service to the actual stats. We'll see how much that translates into actual policy attempts.

So Hillary agrees that government employees* don't produce anything of value?

*Also management.

 

[benjipwns]

Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore: Same-sex marriage ruling 'destroyed the institution of God'

"How do they come out now and say that marriage, which is ordained by God, doesn't mean what it's always meant, between a man and woman?" Moore said. "Not between two men, two women, or three women and one man.

"See, they don't have a definition. They've just destroyed the institution of God. Despite what they think, it's not their doing. Satan drives us. He's out there destroying everything God created including us as human beings."

Throughout his 35-minute speech, Moore sprinkled in biblical passages and religious quotes written by the framers of the U.S. Constitution as proof that the United States is a Christian nation.

Moore highlighted a line from a letter John Adams wrote to his wife Abigail on July 3, 1776: "It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty."

He spoke in support of his non-profit, the Foundation for Moral Law. Following his speech, he sold and signed $20 copies of his book "So Help Me God," and $5 pamphlets that featured speeches and writings from the founders of the United States.

"Do we think of dignity as self-direction? Well, that's the way God in my opinion thinks of dignity. It's dignity to have self-direction. That's what our country is about. You can choose your way through your self-representation. Justice Kennedy uses dignity in saying the state deploys dignity when it recognizes the marriage between a man and woman. It should do the same thing to same-sex couples. He said they have a dignity. You are hurting their dignity. My answer to that is the consummation of a marriage involves a sexual act which is dignified between a man and a woman but is not dignified and has not been dignified historically between a man and man. Therefore are you denying them that? Or are they pushing their definition of dignity on an immoral act that Christians are supposed to detest? Under the historic law, sodomy under Blackstone was an infamous crime in violation of human nature. He said it was a disgrace to human nature. He said it was so vile it could not be named in an indictment. We've taken that act and promoted it to a civil right. Now we've destroyed the institution upon which it is based."

Jim Webb confronts leftists: ‘Not my Democratic Party’

Former Virginia Sen. Jim Webb, who is waging a long-shot bid for president, acknowledged Sunday that he is out of step with his own Democratic Party but vowed that he will connect with working-class Americans.

“The party has moved way far to the left. And that’s not my Democratic Party,” Mr. Webb said on “Fox News Sunday.” “We need to bring working people back into the formula.”

He said that he would be a voice for poor and working-class Americans who had been forgotten by the Democratic and Republican parties.

He invited Fox News to cover a medial clinic for people without medial insurance next weekend at a fairgrounds in remote southwest Virginia.

“They’re going to take care of about 6,000, at least, if historical records hold, people with no medical care,” said Mr. Webb. “They’ll pull 3,000 teeth. And these are people forgotten by both parties. And I think they need a voice.