BertramCooper
Banned
When she should be in JAIL.
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PoliGAF 2015 |OT2| Pls print
- Thread starter ivysaur12
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When she should be in JAIL.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Don't worry, Christie promised to prosecute her.
RastaMentality
Banned
Christie saying he'd prosecute Hillary on live TV in 2016 on the debate stage was a top 10 LOL politics moment of the year.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Carly did the best - from a republican perspective. She reminds me of Mitt Romney in the sense that she sounds very knowledgeable and concise...like a CEO, basically. Regardless of the merit of her arguments, the package is well prepared. She confronted Trump beautifully, with quite a bit of nuance - and then was proven right when he responded by again commenting on her physical appearance. Ultimately her biggest problem is going to be her support of gay marriage. That simply won't play in Iowa or South Carolina. She could gain traction in NH, especially after Kasish's performance tonight.
Chris Christie also did well. He finally got to show off his personality, and while he looked bad attacking Carly for talking about her record...outside of that I thought he didn't have any low points.
I also thought Rubio did well, and easily the best of the establishment candidates. Whereas if you're a Bush supporter did you hear anything tonight that helps him? Bush struggled in multiple areas and continues to expose his own flaws. Nearly everyone on stage has a "conservative record" - that is not enough to win. But it's all Bush has.
My man Walker flopped and barely could garner applause. I thought Carson was pretty bleh but clearly the base respects him.
Ideologically Rand Paul won the debate, but voters don't want to hear what he has to say. He laid out a pretty solid rebuttal of neoconservatism and broadened the GOP tend by discussing the drug war/incarceration in an insightful way. I just don't see him gaining any traction though. I wonder...if Obama had attacked Syria and was pursuing ISIS more aggressively, perhaps Paul would be doing better; certainly Obama using the military would increase anti-war sentiments in the republican party. Obama's refusal to use military force has really revived GOP strong man politics in a way that leaves no room for guys like Paul.
Chris Christie also did well. He finally got to show off his personality, and while he looked bad attacking Carly for talking about her record...outside of that I thought he didn't have any low points.
I also thought Rubio did well, and easily the best of the establishment candidates. Whereas if you're a Bush supporter did you hear anything tonight that helps him? Bush struggled in multiple areas and continues to expose his own flaws. Nearly everyone on stage has a "conservative record" - that is not enough to win. But it's all Bush has.
My man Walker flopped and barely could garner applause. I thought Carson was pretty bleh but clearly the base respects him.
Ideologically Rand Paul won the debate, but voters don't want to hear what he has to say. He laid out a pretty solid rebuttal of neoconservatism and broadened the GOP tend by discussing the drug war/incarceration in an insightful way. I just don't see him gaining any traction though. I wonder...if Obama had attacked Syria and was pursuing ISIS more aggressively, perhaps Paul would be doing better; certainly Obama using the military would increase anti-war sentiments in the republican party. Obama's refusal to use military force has really revived GOP strong man politics in a way that leaves no room for guys like Paul.
BertramCooper
Banned
Fiorina's debating skills kind of help explain why she got to such a high level in the business world despite being fucking terrible at management.
She strikes me as someone who comes across as extremely impressive in a job interview.
She strikes me as someone who comes across as extremely impressive in a job interview.
Have you not been fucking NYCmetsfan?
Come on man, you need to pick up the slack now that I'm gone.
I don't think it's so much pandering to Jews as whole but more -
- pandering to Sheldon fucking Adelson. man, fuck that guy.
- it's one of really handful of cases where the GOP hold a popular position, so they hit it hard.
And by the way, I'm not defending Ann "Perhaps, someday, blacks will win the right to be treated like volitional human beings. But not yet" I Coulter, I also think she's wrong, Israel is an important part of the US foreign policy (though not in the way the GOP thinks about it).
brainchild
Banned
Great analogy! Definitely has the gift of gab.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I've found many a non-shiksas(I'm in NYC!)
brainchild
Banned
I think this sums up the good performers of the debate quite well, accounting for their effectiveness, and not necessarily the content of their statements.
PhoenixDark
Banned
That's corporate culture. So much revolves around looking and sounding like the right (white) guy for the job, regardless of your actual skill. There's a reason Mitt Romney is beloved by these people. He speaks the language. So does Carly.
Ironically we were discussing this in the NFL thread with respect to QBs. A lot of owners and GMs are corporate guys, and we have decades worth of evidence of shitty QBs being drafted too high in large part because they look and sound the part - they know how to talk to these people. Which is partially why a guy like Johnny Manziel can be drafted higher than Teddy Bridgewater.
BertramCooper
Banned
oh my god no browns talk here pls
I found her to be extremely theatrical, almost as much as Rubio, who kept digressing into anecdotes. Carson, Cruz, and Trump never really went at each other, either.
The moderators sucked.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Am I crazy or is Trump doing better in the online polling after this performance than the last one?
FloydtheFathead
Member
Even in PoliGAF, you can't escape their mediocrity Bert (sort of like how Jeb can't escape his family name).Anyway, Between the two candidates, Jeb! and PD's boy Walker. Who is dropping out first? Are we gonna see one of them drop out in the immediate future or make it to the next debate?
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I had to miss it again, but going by the kelly file, sounds like the big winner is George W. Bush and Fiorina, while the big loser is Trump and the moderators.
Who needs to see the actual debates anyway? Most americans decide off these 5 second clips and pundit opinion anyway.
Who needs to see the actual debates anyway? Most americans decide off these 5 second clips and pundit opinion anyway.
Not crazy.
Coriolanus
Banned
Unless Obama went full glassed earth on Isis, the republican rethoric would always be that he isn't doing enough, not that he shouldnt have gone to war. They wouldnt pivot on their own interests like that and weak obama is an easy narrative to spin.
And jeb won't ever drop. Dude could be polling at 0 and he'd still stick around to the very end.
And jeb won't ever drop. Dude could be polling at 0 and he'd still stick around to the very end.
Has to be Walker. They're both doing bad, but all Walker had going for him was his lead in Iowa, where he now polls at roughly 5% or so now that Trump ate his lunch.
brainchild
Banned
You're right. She's very theatrical, very calculated as well. However, it works for her personality. We're not fooled by it, but she comes across as smart to people who aren't very good at distinguishing between a character role and the actual person.
And yes, the moderators were TERRIBLE.
He spoke the least, roughly less than half the time Trump did. Walker had to knock it out of the park this debate to regain relevance and he sure as shit didn't do that. Walker's done for.
Support for Israel on the right is also pandering to evangelicals because Israel is supposed to play a part in the end of days and needs to be there (so everyone there can die, basically). No, I am not making this up.
Coriolanus
Banned
Why? What did they do?
(Id read the debate thread, but that thing's 72 pages long at 100ppp ffs)
Hillary on Fallon, a sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=277&v=ONRQZshyrPI
The rest will go up later.
The rest will go up later.
We all thought Jeb was the Romney of this election, but one consistent about Romney was he always polled a strong second to the flavor of the month candidates like Gingrich, Cain and Bachmann, never losing too much support and always maintaining a relatively high floor. Jeb certainly hasn't done a very good job of that. And Trump is not the typical flavor of the month that we saw in 2012, this election seems to be shaping up to be very unique.
I really thought it'd be Jeb or Walker, but I'm almost certain Walker is done now and Jeb still hasn't learned how to gain any traction with the base.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I'm looking forward to Fiorina rising above Bush in the polls and turning it into the top 3 all having never held elected office before, assuming Carson doesn't flame out too fast from his lackluster showing.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Bush did alright if you listen to these hacks and pundits on CNN. Can't see him losing much more than he already has.
There was hardly any followup and half the moderation team had an agenda to push. I was gobsmacked that the moderators brought up the vaccination issue without mentioning exemptions. Huckabee somehow deflected it into a discussion about cancer.
Co-Moderator Hugh Hewitt said:
EDIT: Oh, I swear Planned Parenthood was like half the debate. Usually the network tries to clue the audience to what's going on, but CNN just allowed the candidates to present their arguments totally matter of fact.
I don't know if it's nostalgia or what, but I remember Romney being much more personable than Jeb. Everready might be the first successful joke he's told this campaign. Trump's definitely no mere flavor-of-the-month since he's been in the lead for like 10 weeks. Is this the reason why?
He could last for a long time.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
It's more on Fiorina's strength than Bush's weakness. Absolutely everyone is talking positively about Fiorina's performance that I can see.
brainchild
Banned
The biggest issue was that many of the candidates responses were complete non-sequiturs and the moderators barely asked them to elucidate with more concrete answers. We just got a bunch of self- indulgent words about everyone's personal back stories and anecdotes. Nothing of substance. While that is typical politician behavior, the moderators could have mitigated some of that if they had actually been doing their job.
They were also quite selective with whom they pitted against each other. I found Carson and Trump to be suspiciously buddy-buddy without so much as a modicum of contention between the two. Again, had the moderators been doing their jobs, they would have made sure to diversify and balance the dynamics between the candidates so that we could see how their arguments would compare.
The moderators were also more bullish on the time limits with some candidates, while practically letting others give their inaugural address.
All around, they were absolutely pointless as moderators. A computer could have given the questions to the candidates and nothing of value would have been lost.
FloydtheFathead
Member
That's what I thought. The Kochs are basically crying themselves to sleep over their massive loss of millions into this shmuck
Is there anyway he can rebound because I don't see any way that can happen. It seems like the inmates are running the asylum in the GOP now.
So did the Moderators I guess with 9 mins of talking in a 3! Hour event
Henchmen21
Banned
That's mainly because the Repub base didn't want Romney. It's why they had that revolving door of candidates every few weeks leading the polls then ultimately failing off. It was a desperate attempt at anyone else but him and until they were left with no one else but him.
FloydtheFathead
Member
Isn't it almost a guarantee that if they pick Jeb! that Trump will run 3rd party given how much he hates him and vice versa?
Jeb is going to be in it till the end and right now we are still in the silly season portion of the primary. Once people actually start voting, things will shake out. 15 GOP candidates will drop out after Iowa and New Hampshire and only 3 or 4 will gun it out for the nom. Jeb will be one of those 3 or 4. I think Walker is pretty much done at this point though. He just has no traction.
Black Mamba
Member
Okay, time for my riveting analysis, step by step.
Rand Paul: As an non-GOPer, I think he won the debate on substance. His anti-WAR WAR WAR approach and him pointing out Christie's hypocrisy regarding marijuana was the highlight of the night in this respect. Clearly won those arguments. However, I'm not his audience. And in the end, Rand made no movement. I think he didn't come off like a petulant child like last time, so he wins in that respect, but he did nothing to help him with the GOP base.
Christie: I thought Christie's approach this time was faaaaar better, Less bully and emotion and more just talking. Personally, thought he lost the drug war debate but overall he did okay. Him trying to talk to the middle class was smart. Problem is he needed more than okay.
Kasich: Did like last time which means I doubt there's any change for him
Huckabee: same as before, as well. Side note: him choosing his wife for the $10 bill is legit. He renamed a part of the governor's mansion after her and the legislature had to pass a law to undo it bcause it was so controversial. Dude is fucking nuts.
Ted Cruz: god I hate this man. Anyway, I think he did well for the GOP base. He might get a bump. His answers were so awful but it's the stuff they like. I did think he got stung by Bush once regarding his Roberts support. I do hope his support rises, however. Him winning the nom would be the best thing ever.
Scott Walker: thought overall he was the biggest loser. Does anyone remember what he said other than Trump destroying him? If this was his chance to prove himself, he failed. I can't imagine him doing any better in the polls and the money is going to dry up real soon. Walker looks just about finished to me.
Rubio: By far the most polished of the bunch yet again. His WAR WAR WAR saber rattle is annoying as fuck, though. I just don't know if it moves the needle for him because he did the same last debate. For some reason, the GOP don't seem to care for him, yet.
Ben Carson: I don't get the hate he's taking. Last debate I said he was terrible the first half but got a good joke in and lolracism and that caused a surge. This debate he was sooooo boring the first half of the debate but overall I thought he provided some actual substance and decent answers. He talked about how they have to think thing in a more intelligent way, not just push for war. he said we already know how to stop illegal immigration and gave an example. He even had a plan for those already here (a stupid one but a plan nonetheless). These are things the GOP wanted to here. Him refusing to destroy Trump on vaccines was disappointing. I'm really not sure how to take this. He might go up or down in the polls. On the one hand boring but on the other hand I didn't think he did too poorly.
Carly Fiorina: She's an unabashed liar, but she came away pretty good here. If anyone gets a bump, I'd expect it to be her. She handled trump perfectly and it was the moment of the night. She brought in personal tragedy for points. She defended her awful record about as well as one could expect. She went directly after PP by lying, but the right will eat it up. If she had any chance to move up, this was it. We'll see now. Side note: her closing speech was so scripted and awful i wonder if it mattered enough to cool her down.
Trump: I think he did meh. He got stung a few times, had a few good one liners, delivered his red meat for immigration and other stuff he said before. He didn't really answer any question substantively. I'm not predicting he's going to drop. I don't think he did as well as the first debate but he wasn't awful.
Jeb!: OMG I thought Jeb bombed. He looked weak. he tried to be the cool old guy (buscemiheykids.gif). He defended his brother (lol). I don't think he's good at this national politics stuff at all. trump just owns his soul. I mean, it's not as bad as it is for Walker because he's probably still the establishment guy but they must be shitting bricks right now. He does not look good.
I was disappointed that Tapper didn't hit harder on some things. The climate change stuff was BS. Why not ask any of them WHAT their plan would be regarding climate change if they accept it? Let's see if they go on record saying nothing at all.
However, this left us to the absolute funniest moment of the night. Ted Cruz BEGGING to be asked about climate change, overheard as saying "I'M A SKEPTIC" and acting like a child going PICK ME PICK ME and then being rebuked. LMAO. I wish he got on record, though. Fucking scumbag.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this debate does virtually nothing to the polling. Maybe Fiorina goes up a bit to Carson/s (and or Trump's) expense. Maybe Walker goes to 1% territory?
don't know how much really changed after tonight. CNN was worse at this than Fox, too.
Rand Paul: As an non-GOPer, I think he won the debate on substance. His anti-WAR WAR WAR approach and him pointing out Christie's hypocrisy regarding marijuana was the highlight of the night in this respect. Clearly won those arguments. However, I'm not his audience. And in the end, Rand made no movement. I think he didn't come off like a petulant child like last time, so he wins in that respect, but he did nothing to help him with the GOP base.
Christie: I thought Christie's approach this time was faaaaar better, Less bully and emotion and more just talking. Personally, thought he lost the drug war debate but overall he did okay. Him trying to talk to the middle class was smart. Problem is he needed more than okay.
Kasich: Did like last time which means I doubt there's any change for him
Huckabee: same as before, as well. Side note: him choosing his wife for the $10 bill is legit. He renamed a part of the governor's mansion after her and the legislature had to pass a law to undo it bcause it was so controversial. Dude is fucking nuts.
Ted Cruz: god I hate this man. Anyway, I think he did well for the GOP base. He might get a bump. His answers were so awful but it's the stuff they like. I did think he got stung by Bush once regarding his Roberts support. I do hope his support rises, however. Him winning the nom would be the best thing ever.
Scott Walker: thought overall he was the biggest loser. Does anyone remember what he said other than Trump destroying him? If this was his chance to prove himself, he failed. I can't imagine him doing any better in the polls and the money is going to dry up real soon. Walker looks just about finished to me.
Rubio: By far the most polished of the bunch yet again. His WAR WAR WAR saber rattle is annoying as fuck, though. I just don't know if it moves the needle for him because he did the same last debate. For some reason, the GOP don't seem to care for him, yet.
Ben Carson: I don't get the hate he's taking. Last debate I said he was terrible the first half but got a good joke in and lolracism and that caused a surge. This debate he was sooooo boring the first half of the debate but overall I thought he provided some actual substance and decent answers. He talked about how they have to think thing in a more intelligent way, not just push for war. he said we already know how to stop illegal immigration and gave an example. He even had a plan for those already here (a stupid one but a plan nonetheless). These are things the GOP wanted to here. Him refusing to destroy Trump on vaccines was disappointing. I'm really not sure how to take this. He might go up or down in the polls. On the one hand boring but on the other hand I didn't think he did too poorly.
Carly Fiorina: She's an unabashed liar, but she came away pretty good here. If anyone gets a bump, I'd expect it to be her. She handled trump perfectly and it was the moment of the night. She brought in personal tragedy for points. She defended her awful record about as well as one could expect. She went directly after PP by lying, but the right will eat it up. If she had any chance to move up, this was it. We'll see now. Side note: her closing speech was so scripted and awful i wonder if it mattered enough to cool her down.
Trump: I think he did meh. He got stung a few times, had a few good one liners, delivered his red meat for immigration and other stuff he said before. He didn't really answer any question substantively. I'm not predicting he's going to drop. I don't think he did as well as the first debate but he wasn't awful.
Jeb!: OMG I thought Jeb bombed. He looked weak. he tried to be the cool old guy (buscemiheykids.gif). He defended his brother (lol). I don't think he's good at this national politics stuff at all. trump just owns his soul. I mean, it's not as bad as it is for Walker because he's probably still the establishment guy but they must be shitting bricks right now. He does not look good.
I was disappointed that Tapper didn't hit harder on some things. The climate change stuff was BS. Why not ask any of them WHAT their plan would be regarding climate change if they accept it? Let's see if they go on record saying nothing at all.
However, this left us to the absolute funniest moment of the night. Ted Cruz BEGGING to be asked about climate change, overheard as saying "I'M A SKEPTIC" and acting like a child going PICK ME PICK ME and then being rebuked. LMAO. I wish he got on record, though. Fucking scumbag.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this debate does virtually nothing to the polling. Maybe Fiorina goes up a bit to Carson/s (and or Trump's) expense. Maybe Walker goes to 1% territory?
don't know how much really changed after tonight. CNN was worse at this than Fox, too.
theprodigy
Member
So I see Black Mamba posted an analysis, but any other opinions on how the debate went? I missed it
(also highlights please)
(also highlights please)
Black Mamba
Member
BTW, if bush somehow gets the nom, and you didn't think he was toast against Hillary in a Clinton vs Bush election, tonight should have sealed it?
Jeb! arguing that his brother kept us safe? Just run that. And then run images of:
9/11
Katrina
Iraq war
embassy attacks
anthrax scare
etc
Election over.
Fucking awful.
Jeb! arguing that his brother kept us safe? Just run that. And then run images of:
9/11
Katrina
Iraq war
embassy attacks
anthrax scare
etc
Election over.
Fucking awful.
I missed it too, but it sounds like Trump devoured a few souls tonight.
brainchild
Banned
Very respectable analysis, and I agree with most of it.
However, when it comes to poll predictions, we really have to understand and accept that 'debate on substance' is effectively meaningless and ineffective for the GOP voters. They want to be persuaded, not logically reasoned with.
Anything can happen, but in my opinion, the poll results will most certainly change dramatically, and it will be due to how these candidates have managed to position themselves with the sound of their words, not the substance of them.
Black Mamba
Member
There weren't many highlights, honestly. For the most part, they all agreed on most issues. The only "discrepancies" were when they attacked each other's records.
Also, each person is "the only person on this stage" to have done something.
They all want to do nothing about climate change. They all want to deport illegals and secure the border (some differences in how I suppose). All want to increase military and go to war (except Rand and Carson). Apparently anti-vaccinations are still cool. Trump believes the 14th may not guarantee birthright because someone told him so. All want to cut taxes (most flat tax for everyone) except Trump. They all want to repeal Obamacare without mentioning anything else health care related. Trump will "get along" with Putin. ISIS exists because we left Iraq when we shouldn't have. JEB! smoked pot. They all want to support the 10th except when it comes to drugs (except Rand again).
Oh, and W kept us safe according to Bush. Trump said "I don't feel safer." Bush cried. I only made up one of those sentences.
Oh yeah, and the GOP could barely name any notable women to replace the $10 bill with. Rosa Parks was their best answer. Seriously, no one could think of Harriet Tubman?
On substance, Rand won. But I said it won't matter.
I feel like Carson had to show he wasn't a moron and he came out far better than I thought he would. Just very boring, which could hurt. I'm admitting I don't know what will happen with Carson.
But I also don't think this debate changes the landscape much. Maybe two people like Carson and Carly switch places but that isn't of matter, really. Keys were Walker did nothing and Bush flopped.
The one guy I'd watch is Rubio. If he ticks up, the money may go from Bush to him. And I don't want that.
Black Mamba
Member
There was one sense of real disagreement, actually. The Iran deal.
They all agree it sucked but a few of them were obviously in the "not tearing it up on day 1" side. Kasich led the charge there. Rand supported as did Carson (I think) and trump and Bush. Carly, christie, Rubio, and especially Ted Cruz were against that.
Ted Cruz even mentioned "but how will we know if they cheat?" hey fuckwit, it's right in the fucking agreement how we check.
BUT 24 DAYS! HEY CAN HIDE ALL THEIR NUCLEAR RADIATION.
Eat a bag of dicks.
/end rant
They all agree it sucked but a few of them were obviously in the "not tearing it up on day 1" side. Kasich led the charge there. Rand supported as did Carson (I think) and trump and Bush. Carly, christie, Rubio, and especially Ted Cruz were against that.
Ted Cruz even mentioned "but how will we know if they cheat?" hey fuckwit, it's right in the fucking agreement how we check.
BUT 24 DAYS! HEY CAN HIDE ALL THEIR NUCLEAR RADIATION.
Eat a bag of dicks.
/end rant
theprodigy
Member
from your own post:
that's two?
by highlights I mean attacks, we know there's not going to be much else
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