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PoliGAF 2016 |OT10| Jill Stein Inflatable Love Doll

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If you think so, then what did the pollsters mean by "unfavorable" views? What did the respondents think they meant? Does that just not matter to you?

in the absence of personal essays from the thousands of people who have been surveyed regarding what exactly they mean by "unfavorable", we're gonna have to settle for making inferences based on their responses to similar poll questions. (and those similar poll questions do not paint a particularly rosy picture with regards to personal beliefs about islam.)

so i guess it matters insofar as i want to be able to glean meanings out of these polls, but not insofar as i want to bellyache if they don't exactly define things
 

AlphaDump

Gold Member
The fact that she finds certain beliefs deplorable can be fact checked? Surely you jest!

But she didn't refer to "certain beliefs," but to labels--"racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic"--that leave a lot to personal judgment. Just look at the Coates' argument in the article Piecake linked to: In support of his claim that a large number of Trump supporters are Islamophobic, he cites a survey in which 60 percent of Trump supporters reportedly have an "unfavorable view" of Islam. But what does that mean, and does it rise to the level of "Islamophobia"? (Do you believe that the central tenets of Islam are true? If not, does that make your view "unfavorable"? If so, does that make you an Islamophobe?) Coates seems to think so.

If she had referred to specific beliefs, maybe then most people could agree on whether they fit the labels used. But even that's not a sure thing. If someone gets a job promotion because of his or her race, is that an example of racism? Does it depend on the race of the person promoted and the structural and historical facts of the society in which the promotion occurs?

In the end, what we're left with is a "fact check" that has to make a value judgment as to the significance of a belief, the meaning of the label to be applied, and whether that label applies to that belief. Only once you make those judgment calls can you turn to the numbers and do what can truly be called fact checking.



See above. You're skipping the value judgments and taking the applicability of the labels as given.



You're proving my point and not understanding the things you read all at the same time. Are you really claiming that, e.g., the classification of "Illegal immigrants should be deported" as hate speech is an objective fact about the world? And what does that have to do with denying that a racist is a racist? Nothing? Nothing.

You are the Hillary email witch hunt guy, I remember you having that same authoritative tone.

Oh boo hoo, there are degrees of "labels--"racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic"--that leave a lot to personal judgment."

What are you even defending? There is no objective truth to these meanings because society has a hell of way of figuring out their definition. No kidding. It's like bigots being angry that they are being called bigots outloud, it's hilarious.
 
But she didn't refer to "certain beliefs," but to labels--"racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic"--that leave a lot to personal judgment. Just look at the Coates' argument in the article Piecake linked to: In support of his claim that a large number of Trump supporters are Islamophobic, he cites a survey in which 60 percent of Trump supporters reportedly have an "unfavorable view" of Islam. But what does that mean, and does it rise to the level of "Islamophobia"? (Do you believe that the central tenets of Islam are true? If not, does that make your view "unfavorable"? If so, does that make you an Islamophobe?) Coates seems to think so..
You could have answered your own question, with a little more research. From Reuters itself:

The poll shows 78 percent of Trump supporters and 36 percent of Clinton supporters said that when compared to other religions, Islam was more likely to encourage acts of terrorism. Trump supporters were also about twice as likely as Clinton supporters to say that Islam was more encouraging of violence toward Americans, women and gay people. Polling on none of the other belief systems and their perceived connection to terrorism or violence came close to matching those numbers.

The question is literally just "What is your opinion of the belief system ___" and then people respond either favorable or unfavorable.

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Controlling for atheists does not explain why the view of Islam is 60% unfavorable while the view of Christianity is 80% favorable among Trump supporters. Or why Judaism has such a different score from Islam's. Pretty much any innocuous interpretation of "favorable" and "unfavorable" can be dismissed outright in a short analysis of the results given. You could have done this and I'm surprised you didn't!
 

User1608

Banned
Personally I love seeing the bigots get mad. After the hateful stuff they've said about us, their cowardly, hateful little selves should go scurry back to their little hell holes.
 
Another year, another 9/11, and another time when I think "Never Forget!" when used in the context of 9/11 is problematic.

First of all, "Never Forget" has usually been invoked towards the genocides of marginalized people who often are forgotten (see how the Holodomor is a subject most Americans have never thought of before). 9/11 was very bad... It was not nearly as bad as the Holocaust, the Holodomor, the Armenian genocide, or the Rwandan genocide.

Secondly, what are we still remembering? Never forget with regards to genocide refers to other people never forgetting that such hate exists and that such hate can turn into mass murder. Who exactly in America could forget that Islamic terrorists are bad dudes?

It seems like "Never Forget" being used for 9/11 often is just used to mean "never forget what the brown people did to America 15 years ago so that we can continue our completely irrational fear of terrorism and Islam."
 
Another year, another 9/11, and another time when I think "Never Forget!" when used in the context of 9/11 is problematic.

First of all, "Never Forget" has usually been invoked towards the genocides of marginalized people who often are forgotten (see how the Holodomor is a subject most Americans have never thought of before). 9/11 was very bad... It was not nearly as bad as the Holocaust, the Holodomor, the Armenian genocide, or the Rwandan genocide.

Secondly, what are we still remembering? Never forget with regards to genocide refers to other people never forgetting that such hate exists and that such hate can turn into mass murder. Who exactly in America could forget that Islamic terrorists are bad dudes?

It seems like "Never Forget" being used for 9/11 often is just used to mean "never forget what the brown people did to America 15 years ago so that we can continue our completely irrational fear of terrorism and Islam."
Never forget that Super Mario Maker was released a year ago. That's the important anniversary that falls on that day now.
 
I'm wondering when 9-11 will transition into a Memorial Day type deal with picnics and sales on used cars.

It's going to happen eventually. Somber holidays only remain so until eventually capitalism takes over and they lose all meaning beyond a day off from work and sales on meats for grilling and soda.
 

Makai

Member
The definitions of deplorable and unfavorable are inherently normative. No point in using opinion polling as objective proof.
 
That 78% figure is clearly not the 60ish% figure for "unfavorable." We're left exactly where we started.

That 78% figure is obviously the question "Compared to other religions, is Islam more or less likely to encourage acts of terrorism?" You can infer that by the article which clearly states.
The poll shows 78 percent of Trump supporters and 36 percent of Clinton supporters said that when compared to other religions, Islam was more likely to encourage acts of terrorism.
This is not a complicated legal dissection. Everything here is plainly obvious. And somehow you are the one accusing me of not reading things!

As for the posts I mentioned, they represented times where you bizarrely defended minor, nuanced cases of racism, like the phrase "All Lives Matter" and "I want to deport illegal immigrants". The pattern continues.
 
The actual differences in religious content between Islam and Christianity is not significant at all, but most people who are "religious" just use Christian as an identity instead of as a follower of the philosophy I think.
 
I have a very simple line.

If you're willing to say Barack Obama wasn't born in this country, and therefore illegitimate, you're an irredeemable racist.

That's 2/3rds of Republicans.
 
I have a very simple line.

If you're willing to say Barack Obama wasn't born in this country, and therefore illegitimate, you're an irredeemable racist.

That's 2/3rds of Republicans.

irredeemable isn't a word that I'd throw around so casually (see Robert Byrd if you're a Democrat), but it's certainly a racist position.
 

Piecake

Member
I have a very simple line.

If you're willing to say Barack Obama wasn't born in this country, and therefore illegitimate, you're an irredeemable racist.

That's 2/3rds of Republicans.

I really don't have any idea how anyone can claim that people who think that "blacks are more violent, more criminal, lazier, and ruder than whites." are not textbook racists.

40% of Trump supporters believe that about blacks.
 
I don't get the backlash on Hillary for her comments. If you are offended by what she said, you are either a racist or you are feigning outrage. Neither person deserves an apology or respect.
 
I really don't have any idea how anyone can claim that people who think that "blacks are more violent, more criminal, lazier, and ruder than whites." are not textbook racists.

40% of Trump supporters believe that about blacks.
This is what "Politically correctness" means in today's world, just not calling people the n-word. They want to say all those things without being labeled as racists, and when Trump came along they found their savior. Calling people lazy, violent, etc as a matter of their ethnicity is being "politically incorrect", but since you're not directly using the n-word (and maybe you have a black friend!), you can't be a racist.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
I don't get the backlash on Hillary for her comments. If you are offended by what she said, you are either a racist or you are feigning outrage. Neither person deserves an apology or respect.

Correct. Nobody worth worrying about disagrees with this in the slightest. Again: this comes to Gary Johnson voters. Whether or not one believes they can be moved to her camp (obviously they cannot) determines whether or not to give a strategic shit about this nonsense.
 
I haven't been able to contemplate a poll because there's always some new fucking issue that may have an effect on the numbers.

Also, the ABC poll will be interesting in 538 because the RV numbers went more towards her but who the hell knows how it will be interpreted with the switch to LV.
 

Zukkoyaki

Member
I haven't been able to contemplate a poll because there's always some new fucking issue that may have an effect on the numbers.

Also, the ABC poll will be interesting in 538 because the RV numbers went more towards her but who the hell knows how it will be interpreted with the switch to LV.

I think Nate said they will include both results. But don't quote me on that.

Edit: Actually, probably do the LV result. That's the one they included last time ABC released a poll. So expect it to shift further toward Trump than a model rationally should in this scenario.
 

Iolo

Member
Clinton holds a 46 percent to 41 percent edge over Trump among likely voters, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll. But the results also suggest that lagging interest among some of Hillary Clinton’s supporters poses a potential turnout challenge for Democrats.

Seems like an odd statement. Isn't this literally the difference between RV and LV, meaning the +5 LV number already factors this in?
 
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