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PoliGAF 2016 |OT10| Jill Stein Inflatable Love Doll

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T

Toxi

Banned
itschris said:
Really, New York Times? You're calling this a pivot?

zbT1Pmul.jpg


https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/771192259798708224

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/01/us/politics/donald-trump-immigration-speech.html
Click to expand...
Did Patrick Healy even watch the speech?
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Toxi said:
Did Patrick Healy even watch the speech?
Click to expand...

Probably not. Dude probably got an advance copy and figured that's what would be said, because that's what usually happens.

Egg on the face of everyone involved in this getting published.
 
M

mo60

Member
Emarv said:
Justin Trudeau sitting in Canada right now like "You're not gonna fool me, Mr. Trump. Nuh uh, not me!"
Click to expand...

He's probably going feel happy and dance a bit on November 8th once he finds out that he does not have to deal with trump as the next US president.

So trump continues his 360 pivot. I'm not shocked about this. I'm not really scared of trump making this race close or winning this because this election ended the second we found out that he would be the republican presidential nominee in this election year. People still need to vote to make sure trump gets crushed on November 8th.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
ShironRedshift said:
Really? Do you really still think that at this point? I mean, normally, I'd agree. But this is after the AP of all places doubled-down on their Clinton Foundation story and how the terrible and unprofessional way in which they handled and presented it on social media. Given that, I expect absolutely nothing at this point from even the big names like the AP and NYT. They just don't seem to give a fuck anymore, and are just going with whatever narrative they want, regardless of how little sense it makes or whether it's at all connected with reality or not.
Click to expand...

The AP got dumped on by the Times and the Post for their article, though!

I do expect better from the NYT, and as I keep saying, I feel like liberals are starting to have an epistemic closure problem with regards to the media. No matter what the papers or cable news says, every response is "they just want a horserace! They're creating a narrative! The truth doesn't matter to them!"

This strikes me as a poor and one-dimensional mental model of how newsrooms actually work, but it also strikes me as just demonstrably false given the coverage that Trump has actually received over the course of this campaign. There are certainly things that have surprised me -- this article is one, and the alt-right speech coverage was another -- but they surprised me mainly because most of Trump's coverage has in fact been overwhelmingly negative.

I will note that the surprising articles I mentioned all seemed to come out after Conway/Bannon got hired, so it's possible they know how to play the media properly (that is supposed to be Bannon's stock in trade) and they're flipping the script, I guess. But I don't know that I have enough data to conclude that yet.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
pigeon said:
The AP got dumped on by the Times and the Post for their article, though!

I do expect better from the NYT, and as I keep saying, I feel like liberals are starting to have an epistemic closure problem with regards to the media. No matter what the papers or cable news says, every response is "they just want a horserace! They're creating a narrative! The truth doesn't matter to them!"

This strikes me as a poor and one-dimensional mental model of how newsrooms actually work, but it also strikes me as just demonstrably false given the coverage that Trump has actually received over the course of this campaign. There are certainly things that have surprised me -- this article is one, and the alt-right speech coverage was another -- but they surprised me mainly because most of Trump's coverage has in fact been overwhelmingly negative.

I will note that the surprising articles I mentioned all seemed to come out after Conway/Bannon got hired, so it's possible they know how to play the media properly (that is supposed to be Bannon's stock in trade) and they're flipping the script, I guess. But I don't know that I have enough data to conclude that yet.
Click to expand...

If I wasn't drunk I'd respond to this
 
U

User 463088

Banned
The thing I don't get, and I really, really am having trouble with this, is why the media suddenly needs to be handed a sentence word for word for them to accept it as what just happened.

If Donald Trump says "I'm going to murder rabbits" They'll immediately come back with "Well, he didn't say anything about bunnies, so he's pivoted/softened/backed off" nd the

I mean, Axelrod on twitter?

David Axelrod ‏@davidaxelrod 2h2 hours ago Michigan, USA
Missing from this hail of red meat: The mass deportation he promised for a year.

He LITERALLY said everyone who is here illegally can be deported. There would be no amnesty, and the only way you can stay is if you leave and then come back in, this time legally.

Like, we're not asking for HUGE leaps of logic here.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
pigeon said:
The AP got dumped on by the Times and the Post for their article, though!

I do expect better from the NYT, and as I keep saying, I feel like liberals are starting to have an epistemic closure problem with regards to the media. No matter what the papers or cable news says, every response is "they just want a horserace! They're creating a narrative! The truth doesn't matter to them!"

This strikes me as a poor and one-dimensional mental model of how newsrooms actually work, but it also strikes me as just demonstrably false given the coverage that Trump has actually received over the course of this campaign. There are certainly things that have surprised me -- this article is one, and the alt-right speech coverage was another -- but they surprised me mainly because most of Trump's coverage has in fact been overwhelmingly negative.

I will note that the surprising articles I mentioned all seemed to come out after Conway/Bannon got hired, so it's possible they know how to play the media properly (that is supposed to be Bannon's stock in trade) and they're flipping the script, I guess. But I don't know that I have enough data to conclude that yet.
Click to expand...

You've probably got it on the money to tell the truth. This is the benefit to bringing someone like Bannon on board: you get an inside view of how campaign coverage works. From there it's just a matter of attacking the weak points. It won't work every time, but if you're Trump you take any win you can get.
 
E

Electric Eye

Banned
B-Dubs said:
Probably not. Dude probably got an advance copy and figured that's what would be said, because that's what usually happens.

Egg on the face of everyone involved in this getting published.
Click to expand...

The live blog mentioned there was no copy of any speech given out to anyone ahead of it. Looks like everyone got played lol

Maggie HabermanReporter
10:07 PM ET
The press was given word of an expected pivot on immigration over the last 10 days.
Click to expand...


Maggie HabermanReporter
10:18 PM ET
The Trump campaign has not sent out the text of his speech, so it is impossible to tell precisely what was supposed to be in this speech and how much is Trump off-the-cuff.
Click to expand...
 
E

Emarv

Member
adam387 said:
The thing I don't get, and I really, really am having trouble with this, is why the media suddenly needs to be handed a sentence word for word for them to accept it as what just happened.

If Donald Trump says "I'm going to murder rabbits" They'll immediately come back with "Well, he didn't say anything about bunnies, so he's pivoted/softened/backed off" nd the

I mean, Axelrod on twitter?

David Axelrod ‏@davidaxelrod 2h2 hours ago Michigan, USA
Missing from this hail of red meat: The mass deportation he promised for a year.

He LITERALLY said everyone who is here illegally can be deported. There would be no amnesty, and the only way you can stay is if you leave and then come back in, this time legally.

Like, we're not asking for HUGE leaps of logic here.
Click to expand...

Axe, Smerconish, etc all argued over this for the first 10 minutes until Don Lemon had to correct them to say he did talk about it and then read them the clip.

For once, Lemon was the one trying to do the actual reporting.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Electric Eye said:
The live blog mentioned there was no copy of any speech given out to anyone ahead of it. Looks like everyone got played lol
Click to expand...

Then how the fuck did this even happen? How do you fuck up this bad on your own? How does this not get caught by editorial?

Seriously, what?
 
U

User 463088

Banned
B-Dubs said:
Then how the fuck did this even happen? How do you fuck up this bad on your own? How does this not get caught by editorial?

Seriously, what?
Click to expand...

I'm telling you, for some reason that I don't understand, half of the media is like blind to the fact that he did call for mass deportations...but because he didn't explicitly say those exact words, in that exact order....benefit of the doubt.

I mean, seriously. It's like they've decided the story is to get him caught up in a flip flop is somehow more important than the actual words that come out of his mouth. I don't get it.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
adam387 said:
The thing I don't get, and I really, really am having trouble with this, is why the media suddenly needs to be handed a sentence word for word for them to accept it as what just happened.

If Donald Trump says "I'm going to murder rabbits" They'll immediately come back with "Well, he didn't say anything about bunnies, so he's pivoted/softened/backed off" nd the

I mean, Axelrod on twitter?

David Axelrod ‏@davidaxelrod 2h2 hours ago Michigan, USA
Missing from this hail of red meat: The mass deportation he promised for a year.

He LITERALLY said everyone who is here illegally can be deported. There would be no amnesty, and the only way you can stay is if you leave and then come back in, this time legally.

Like, we're not asking for HUGE leaps of logic here.
Click to expand...
No, Adam, the mechanism is important here. It's the whole issue. Yes, Trump said everyone here illegally can be deported. But he didn't say he was going to go after them. So if they don't feel like taking the risk of leaving and coming back two years later (if then), then they're just going to stay here and be stuck in exactly the same situation they are now. So without emphasizing a deportation force, of which there will be none, we can assume that nothing is going to change. And that's a big deal.
 
E

Emarv

Member
adam387 said:
I'm telling you, for some reason that I don't understand, half of the media is like blind to the fact that he did call for mass deportations...but because he didn't explicitly say those exact words, in that exact order....benefit of the doubt.

I mean, seriously. It's like they've decided the story is to get him caught up in a flip flop is somehow more important than the actual words that come out of his mouth. I don't get it.
Click to expand...

Benefit of the pivot until proven un-pivot. That's the motto.
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
Spoiled Milk said:
No, Adam, the mechanism is important here. It's the whole issue. Yes, Trump said everyone here illegally can be deported. But he didn't say he was going to go after them. So if they don't feel like taking the risk of leaving and coming back two years later (if then), then they're just going to stay here and be stuck in exactly the same situation they are now. So without emphasizing a deportation force, of which there will be none, we can assume that nothing is going to change. And that's a big deal.
Click to expand...

He directly called for a Deportation Task Force. How is that different from a Deportation Force again?
 
H

Holmes

Member
I think the NYT had a few pre-written paragraphs/stories depending on what happened in this speech just to be one of the first ones out with a story, but they accidentally inserted an incorrect one.
 
E

Emarv

Member
Spoiled Milk said:
No, Adam, the mechanism is important here. It's the whole issue. Yes, Trump said everyone here illegally can be deported. But he didn't say he was going to go after them. So if they don't feel like taking the risk of leaving and coming back two years later (if then), then they're just going to stay here and be stuck in exactly the same situation they are now. So without emphasizing a deportation force, of which there will be none, we can assume that nothing is going to change. And that's a big deal.
Click to expand...

One the one hand, yes, theoretically he's saying they could just live in the shadows if they don't want legalization.

However, he specifically talked about tripling ICE employees and making a "Special Deportation Task Force". The implication is there, and that's just the easy parts. He inferred it a number of other times with various "they're gonna go"-type lines.

adam387 said:
But that's not all he said. He said that the police know the people who are here illegally, and it will be so easy to get them out. This was separate from the 2 million that are going to be gone on day one. He said he's revoking every one of Obama's executive orders on immigration. That would put the legal status of DREAMERS into question. And are we literally supposed to believe he's just going to ignore these people?

And, again, he used the words "Special Deportation Task Force"
Click to expand...

Yup. The Dreamer point is a big one.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
Spoiled Milk said:
No, Adam, the mechanism is important here. It's the whole issue. Yes, Trump said everyone here illegally can be deported. But he didn't say he was going to go after them. So if they don't feel like taking the risk of leaving and coming back two years later (if then), then they're just going to stay here and be stuck in exactly the same situation they are now. So without emphasizing a deportation force, of which there will be none, we can assume that nothing is going to change. And that's a big deal.
Click to expand...

But that's not all he said. He said that the police know the people who are here illegally, and it will be so easy to get them out. This was separate from the 2 million that are going to be gone on day one. He said he's revoking every one of Obama's executive orders on immigration. That would put the legal status of DREAMERS into question. And are we literally supposed to believe he's just going to ignore these people?

And, again, he used the words "Special Deportation Task Force"
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
NY Times isn't completely wrong on this. The deportation force is gone. The buses are gone. Everyone who watched Trump during the primaries had ONE image in their minds when he talked about illegal immigration, and that was "take everyone who doesn't belong here and get them the hell out".

So not mentioning the deportation force was an attempt at softening. And then he didn't want to piss off his base so he doubled down on the racism and the rhetoric and the no-amnesty hard rules. But there's no deportation force and he's not dragging people out of their homes; that policy, btw, we all knew he was going to reverse on when he realized he wasn't going to magically figure out how to deport eleven million people.

EDIT: Oh shit, deportation task force. Never mind.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Spoiled Milk said:
NY Times isn't completely wrong on this. The deportation force is gone. The buses are gone. Everyone who watched Trump during the primaries had ONE image in their minds when he talked about illegal immigration, and that was "take everyone who doesn't belong here and get them the hell out".

So not mentioning the deportation force was an attempt at softening. And then he didn't want to piss off his base so he doubled down on the racism and the rhetoric and the no-amnesty hard rules. But there's no deportation force and he's not dragging people out of their homes; that policy, btw, we all knew he was going to reverse on when he realized he wasn't going to magically figure out how to deport eleven million people.
Click to expand...

He literally mentioned a deportation task force. All he did was add a word.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Spoiled Milk said:
NY Times isn't completely wrong on this. The deportation force is gone. The buses are gone. Everyone who watched Trump during the primaries had ONE image in their minds when he talked about illegal immigration, and that was "take everyone who doesn't belong here and get them the hell out".

So not mentioning the deportation force was an attempt at softening. And then he didn't want to piss off his base so he doubled down on the racism and the rhetoric and the no-amnesty hard rules. But there's no deportation force and he's not dragging people out of their homes; that policy, btw, we all knew he was going to reverse on when he realized he wasn't going to magically figure out how to deport eleven million people.
Click to expand...

Nope this is all false
 
R

royalan

Member
Spoiled Milk said:
No, Adam, the mechanism is important here. It's the whole issue. Yes, Trump said everyone here illegally can be deported. But he didn't say he was going to go after them. So if they don't feel like taking the risk of leaving and coming back two years later (if then), then they're just going to stay here and be stuck in exactly the same situation they are now. So without emphasizing a deportation force, of which there will be none, we can assume that nothing is going to change. And that's a big deal.
Click to expand...

HAHA

Didn't I say this two pages ago?

Don't be misled by Trump's bombast, extremely loud nostril inhaling, and flimsy command of the English language. Whoever wrote that speech knew what they were doing, and people who want to support Trump will hear what they want to hear in it (not saying Spoiled Milk supports Trump, I don't know).
 
O

Officerrob

Banned
Spoiled Milk said:
NY Times isn't completely wrong on this. The deportation force is gone. The buses are gone. Everyone who watched Trump during the primaries had ONE image in their minds when he talked about illegal immigration, and that was "take everyone who doesn't belong here and get them the hell out".

So not mentioning the deportation force was an attempt at softening. And then he didn't want to piss off his base so he doubled down on the racism and the rhetoric and the no-amnesty hard rules. But there's no deportation force and he's not dragging people out of their homes; that policy, btw, we all knew he was going to reverse on when he realized he wasn't going to magically figure out how to deport eleven million people.
Click to expand...

You do realize he said he's going to magically deport 2 million people in his first hour as President, right?
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
Spoiled Milk said:
NY Times isn't completely wrong on this. The deportation force is gone. The buses are gone. Everyone who watched Trump during the primaries had ONE image in their minds when he talked about illegal immigration, and that was "take everyone who doesn't belong here and get them the hell out".

So not mentioning the deportation force was an attempt at softening. And then he didn't want to piss off his base so he doubled down on the racism and the rhetoric and the no-amnesty hard rules. But there's no deportation force and he's not dragging people out of their homes; that policy, btw, we all knew he was going to reverse on when he realized he wasn't going to magically figure out how to deport eleven million people.
Click to expand...

He had no problem hinting at Operation Wetback.
 
S

ShironRedshift

Member
adam387 said:
The thing I don't get, and I really, really am having trouble with this, is why the media suddenly needs to be handed a sentence word for word for them to accept it as what just happened.

If Donald Trump says "I'm going to murder rabbits" They'll immediately come back with "Well, he didn't say anything about bunnies, so he's pivoted/softened/backed off" nd the

I mean, Axelrod on twitter?

David Axelrod ‏@davidaxelrod 2h2 hours ago Michigan, USA
Missing from this hail of red meat: The mass deportation he promised for a year.

He LITERALLY said everyone who is here illegally can be deported. There would be no amnesty, and the only way you can stay is if you leave and then come back in, this time legally.

Like, we're not asking for HUGE leaps of logic here.
Click to expand...
And what's particularly infuriating is that that copious benefit of the doubt only goes one way. Like, they pretend to be able to figure out even absolutely basic logic like that when it comes to Trump. But somehow Huma's husband being a cheating piece of shit means Clinton's campaign is in it's death kneels, e-mails of people requesting meetings but getting denied means the Clinton Foundation is full of FRAUD and CORRUPTION, and Iran being money they were owed for decades at the same time we were negotiating the release of hostages means that money really wasn't money we owed Iran but it was really a ransom payment because "dat timing though". Like, they can make all those crazy leaps of logic and constantly go there for stuff like that and "connect the dots" just for the sake of having a story, but pretend they can't figure out whether Trump's still for mass deportations or not? C'mon, nam. Just c'mon. Of course, that's nothing new, but still...
 
A

adamsappel

Member
NBC has the tenor of the speech

Surprise! Donald Trump's self-declared "softening" on immigration is gone, replaced by a recommitment to a hardline policy that could best be described as mass deportation.

Shouting his remarks to a fired-up crowd in Arizona, which has been home to some of the most contentious immigration policy fights of the last decade, Trump pledged a maximal approach that would target ever undocumented immigrant in the country without mercy.

"There will be no amnesty," Trump said. "Our message to the world will be this: You cannot obtain legal status or become a citizen of the United States by illegally entering our country."
...

Whatever crisis of conscience Trump had this month after talking to Hispanic supporters and hearing tales of longtime residents torn from their families passed in the rear-view mirror. Instead, Trump used his remarks in Arizona to reassure his core supporters that he would focus on deporting criminals, but remain true to his original pledge to target all undocumented immigrants without mercy, whether illegal workers or DREAMers or the parents of U.S. citizens.
...

Trump also pledged to deport any undocumented immigrant taken in by law enforcement without regard to the severity of their crime or whether they were convicted. To add teeth to this measure, he threatened to cut off federal funding to any "sanctuary city" that ordered local authorities not to work with federal immigration officials.

"We will issue detainers for illegal immigrants who are arrested for any crime whatsoever and they will be placed in immediate removal proceedings — if we even have to do that," Trump said.

To the extent there was a pivot, it appeared to be from the hard right to the alt right.
Click to expand...
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
adam387 said:
But that's not all he said. He said that the police know the people who are here illegally, and it will be so easy to get them out. This was separate from the 2 million that are going to be gone on day one. He said he's revoking every one of Obama's executive orders on immigration. That would put the legal status of DREAMERS into question. And are we literally supposed to believe he's just going to ignore these people?

And, again, he used the words "Special Deportation Task Force"
Click to expand...
Then WHY DOESNT HE JUST SAY THE MAGIC WORDS ALREADY. I AM SO CONFUSED BY TRUMP. WHAT DOES HE WANT TO DO.

Someone just needs to ask him straight up "Are you going to deport non-criminal illegal immigrants or not?"
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
The media still can't get on the same page over whether mass deportation are a thing or not. It's like the ultimate "we are desperate for a pivot narrative" Rorschach test for these fucking clowns.
 
O

Officerrob

Banned
Spoiled Milk said:
Then WHY DOESNT HE JUST SAY THE MAGIC WORDS ALREADY. I AM SO CONFUSED BY TRUMP. WHAT DOES HE WANT TO DO.

Someone just needs to ask him straight up "Are you going to deport non-criminal illegal immigrants or not?"
Click to expand...

He said tonight that every illegal immigrant must go back, EVERY
 
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