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PoliGAF 2016 |OT10| Jill Stein Inflatable Love Doll

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Let’s just look at your post for a second, because I think it was so unavoidably smarmy that I want to respond to it one-off. First, it’s not politically insightful or sharp to suggest that presidential races in modern America coming in at one party holding an 8 point lead in early August will tighten as the race progresses, partisans come home, and convention bounces fade. Presidential politics are incredibly polarized; even popular candidates that are generally perceived favorably see their races tighten (a fact which has been obscured by probability trackers on sites like 538 that give very important weights to time remaining in a race) like Obama/Romney four years ago. Presidential races are not like Congressional or Senatorial races. So adding that you “called it” while then suggesting “[us] guys” were so excited for Trump’s implosion that the forest was missed for the trees to me is a pretty direct insult to people that have been following presidential politics for their adult lives.

There was certainly no consensus here in the home of Diablos that this was over. You'd only think that if you parachuted in temporarily to remind people what you called weeks ago or what you said back in 1984.

[snip]

Point taken.

Just keep in mind, this thread now moves very fast and with work & life, I just don't have the time to read every post or comment every few hours. So it may seem like I'm parachuting in, but I've been a part of PoliGAF since '07 before Obama was elected. It's just difficult for me to keep up with all the new posters and daily minutia going on in the thread. I basically have to take small samples reading every few pages, so if I'm misrepresenting people's viewpoints or existing political knowledge, then I'm sorry. But sometimes there's still value in stating the obvious because people do get wound up in the daily tracking polls that they lose sight of normal election trends.
 
It seems silly to panic over minor poll fluctuation months before the election, with three debates to go, and every major Democrat in the party starting a full on campaign later on.
 

Zukkoyaki

Member
Ipsos polls continue to make zero sense.

Trump leads Hillary by 14 in NH apparently.

Depends on the state you're looking at. Some of them have tiny sample sizes of like 100-200 people (basically useless) and NH was one of them. Others like Florida and Ohio have sample sizes of more like 500-600 (much more useful) and are showing solid +7 leads. Their state polls are all over the place for sure, but taking a look at each sample size will give a better idea of which ones to take seriously.
 

Iolo

Member
Intermission: Donald Trump's promised Florida field offices remain elusive

On Aug, 8, the Donald Trump campaign said it its first two dozen campaign field offices would open across Florida within two weeks.

Since then, not a single new Trump office has opened in America's biggest battleground state, but Hillary Clinton's campaign added another 32.

The Republican nominee still only has a Sarasota statewide headquarters open in the state he absolutely must win, while the Democratic nominee has 51 offices even though she has multiple paths to winning that don't require Florida's 29 electoral vote.

"We are running a 67 county strategy. We're not taking any vote for granted, and that includes making sure we are within the communities where the people are that support this campaign," said Simone Ward, Clinton's Tampa-based Florida campaign director. "You've got to build a strong ground game, and you can't wait until the last minute to do that."

And now, back to your regularly scheduled obsession over small movements in daily tracking polls.
 

Zukkoyaki

Member
It's probably been discussed to death but man 538's model is bizarre. On monday it shifted 1.3% toward Trump after an Arizona poll that had Clinton ahead... And just now it added the Rasmussen poll which was +4 Clinton a week ago, you know a poll that really SHOULD move the needle a little bit toward Trump, yet according to their model... it boosted her .1%

What? Anyway, enough whining, moving on!
 

HylianTom

Banned
Intermission: Donald Trump's promised Florida field offices remain elusive



And now, back to your regularly scheduled obsession over small movements in daily tracking polls.
I am.. still amazed.

This (along with the Democratic Justice League spreading across the map in a few weeks) should serve as inoculation against panic. He's effectively ceding points in a race where he has no room for error.

I'll remember 2016 for the upsurge of racism inspired by Trump, but from an academic/strategic standpoint, his campaign infrastructure takes the cake. Just, wow.
 
This fucker is playing both sides:

Trump promises 'quite a bit of softening' on immigration


Contrary to Donald Trump's declaration last week that there would be no "softening" but rather a "hardening" of the treatment of undocumented immigrants under his administration, the Republican nominee on Thursday said once again that there would be "softening" of his position, but with a time element attached.

"Where's the softening?" radio host Laura Ingraham asked Trump in his first interview aired Thursday after delivering his immigration speech the previous night, commenting that she had found it to be a "very specific, very pro-enforcement" proposal.

Trump responded, "Oh, there’s softening. Look, we do it in a very humane way, and we’re going to see with the people that are in the country. Obviously I want to get the gang members out, the drug peddlers out, I want to get the drug dealers out. We’ve got a lot of people in this country that you can’t have, and those people we’ll get out."

"And then we’re going to make a decision at a later date once everything is stabilized," Trump continued. "I think you’re going to see there’s really quite a bit of softening."

Trump added that he feels "strongly that we have to stabilize the border, we have to absolutely stabilize the border and we have to have a strong border, otherwise we don’t have a country."
...

We'll see where the race is in October bro.

Of course, but unless McCain implodes, it's a lock he wins.
 
Clinton yesterday laid out legitimate policy regarding mental health yet no one in the media has said a peep about it. I think the Trump effect has them only caring if Clinton holds a Rally or a Press conference. The reporting is incredibly dissapointing.

Can't always rely on the media to do things for you. If Hillary really wants her plans to be talked about she and her campaign needs to go a little more national then they are now. They are covering Trump because of ratings, drama, and he is doing is using major outlets to give out his thoughts. Considering the major ad buys and some major people stumping for her in September she might be more public sometime in September. During the time in August it looks like she was primary fundraising, keeping a low profile, and organizing.


It also should looked that her state polls are very good, but her national polls it looks more close depending on the poll. It would appear her strategy might be working somewhat on that end.
 
Of course, but unless McCain implodes, it's a lock he wins.
Is it? His approval ratings are terrible every time people are asked about it and Kirkpatrick is running a solid campaign.

I'd still call it Lean R for now but he definitely has a race on his hands. Mr. Maverick Senator "I'm supporting the GOP Nominee(TM)" is gonna see his chickens come home to roost.
 
Furthermore, the thing that scared me most recently was trump's outreach to white women by pretending to care about minorities. That was the only event that suggested his campaign was aware of its demographic challenges.

Do you still think that's the angle after last night?
Something that probably should have been obvious hit me last night. Why did Trump hire people so different from each other as Kellyanne Conway and Bannon? Because that way, no matter what he wants to do at any given time, there will be at least one person in his ear saying that's a great idea. Whether that person is Christie or Ailes or one of his kids or Bannon or Conway doesn't matter. The point is to make sure he always has at least one or two cheerleaders right next to him no matter what.

There never was a strategy or angle or anything (that Trump cared about anyway). Just Trump himself.
I am.. still amazed.

This (along with the Democratic Justice League spreading across the map in a few weeks) should serve as inoculation against panic. He's effectively ceding points in a race where he has no room for error.

I'll remember 2016 for the upsurge of racism inspired by Trump, but from an academic/strategic standpoint, his campaign infrastructure takes the cake. Just, wow.
Yeah, it's fascinating. Like, normally, we don't actually get to see just how much stuff like ground game and GOTV efforts matter because no one's been stupid enough to take them for granted. But yet... here we have exactly just that. One candidate doing all the right, standard, expected things, and the other doing basically nothing. Going to be fascinating to see the effect that has on the race, especially when combined with the debates and the dream-team rolling out.

Especially since at this point in 2012 Romney was still favored. The fact that Clinton's favored at all in so many polls, prior to the debates or any of that getting started is a very strong sign and also protect a bit against panic. Though if the polls tightening a bit like this get people not to take the situation for granted and actually make sure they show up a bit and maybe throw a few extra bucks Clinton's way to make sure she can fund that machine and keep the pressure strong, that definitely wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

But yeah, all signs say absolutely no reason to panic or be worried about anything right now. Unless that worry is about something like retaking the House I guess, but that's going to be a longshot to begin with unless Clinton just completely annihilates him through and through.
 
PPP did several polls for a pro-minimum wage action group, it seems.

http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/morning-score/2016/09/primary-season-recap-216139

Arizona

Trump 46
Clinton 43

McCain 43
Kirkpatrick 43

Missouri

Trump 47
Clinton 41

Blunt 47
Kander 43

New Hampshire

Clinton 46
Trump 40

Hassan 47
Ayotte 45

North Carolina

Clinton 45
Trump 44

Burr 46
Ross 43

Ohio

Clinton 46
Trump 42

Portman 48
Strickland 39

Pennsylvania

Clinton 48
Trump 43

McGinty 46
Toomey 40

Wisconsin

Clinton 48
Trump 41

Feingold 49
Johnson 42
 
Is it? His approval ratings are terrible every time people are asked about it and Kirkpatrick is running a solid campaign.

I'd still call it Lean R for now but he definitely has a race on his hands. Mr. Maverick Senator "I'm supporting the GOP Nominee(TM)" is gonna see his chickens come home to roost.

TBH, I look at McCain as another Portman: perfectly capable of separating himself from Trump, with Trump still ahead in Arizona. Strong GOP state and the state party will be behind McCain.

Unless Clinton wins Arizona by a relatively large margin, I don't see how Kirkpatrick winning the seat.

But any bonus seat won in 2016 is good for 2018, because it's going to very difficult to keep any Dem majority.
 

Bowdz

Member
Is it? His approval ratings are terrible every time people are asked about it and Kirkpatrick is running a solid campaign.

I'd still call it Lean R for now but he definitely has a race on his hands. Mr. Maverick Senator "I'm supporting the GOP Nominee(TM)" is gonna see his chickens come home to roost.

I agree. There is no doubt that McCain is favored in the race, but he is certainly not a lock. Sam Wang's got the aggregate at McCain +2 before this PPP poll. Barring any changes in the race, I think McCain will take it, but if Trump loses AZ to Clinton, it'll be a close race.
 
Yeah, those polls are pretty consistent with what you'd expect from some demographic swings + a six point race. Maybe a bit low in NC, but we'll see. Overall, really good. Especially the Senate. McGinty seems like an early lock. Kirkpatrick, Kander, and Ross can win. Fuck Strickland.
 
TBH, I look at McCain as another Portman: perfectly capable of separating himself from Trump, with Trump still ahead in Arizona. Strong GOP state and the state party will be behind McCain.

Unless Clinton wins Arizona by a relatively large margin, I don't see how Kirkpatrick winning the seat.

But any bonus seat won in 2016 is good for 2018, because it's going to very difficult to keep any Dem majority.
Is he though?

According to polling right now, he's doing worse than Trump. Keep in mind there are also a lot of diehard conservatives who dislike him too for his more moderate stances.

whyamihere said:
Yeah, those polls are pretty consistent with what you'd expect from some demographic swings + a six point race. Maybe a bit low in NC, but we'll see. Overall, really good. Especially the Senate. McGinty seems like an early lock. Kirkpatrick, Kander, and Ross can win. Fuck Strickland.
I agree. I hate to write off OH so early, maybe Strickland can pull off a miracle. But it seems if everything breaks our way we could still pick up 9 Senate seats which would put us right back at 55.

IL, WI, NH, PA, IN where we're already favored (Sabato has all of them at Lean or Likely D as of today), MO, AZ, NC and FL seem to be close enough and within the realm of possibility.

Having a five seat majority would also insulate us a bit from 2018 unless it's really bad. We could lose all 5 Romney state Democrats but hold everything else for a 50-50 tie/majority.
 
I always thought Portman was pretty vulnerable, but I also didn't really know anything about him besides that he was a profilic fundraiser.

Are we done with saying McGinty is a bad candidate now? Can we stop that?
 
TBH, I look at McCain as another Portman: perfectly capable of separating himself from Trump, with Trump still ahead in Arizona. Strong GOP state and the state party will be behind McCain.

Unless Clinton wins Arizona by a relatively large margin, I don't see how Kirkpatrick winning the seat.

But any bonus seat won in 2016 is good for 2018, because it's going to very difficult to keep any Dem majority.

This doesn't make any sense when Trump is running ahead of McCain there.
 
So, my boyfriend and I went for breakfast. Because, like, we're old and boring and go for breakfast at 8 am on a Thursday after the kids are in school.

And we went to Cracker Barrel (I had the country boy breakfast, eggs over medium, steak well done, fried apples, hashbrown casserole, biscuits with apple butter and gravy). There were like 15 old, white men eating together. At least 5 of them had something Trumpish on, and like four cars in the parking lot had Trump shit on their car.

They didn't seem to like my YASSSS Hillary shirt. If any of them could have stood up independently, I think they might have kicked my ass.

Also, Britney Spears is trash. Derrick Berry if I have to, but that's only because he's a better lip sync artist than Brittney. Although, at least Brittney (or her gay) knows how to paint an eyebrow.
 
Well I called it.

When you guys were going nuts over the Trump early August implosion and declaring the race over, I told you if Trump narrows it back down to 3-4 points by labor day, we'll have a ball game.

Going by the latest polls, Trump is going to do just that by this weekend. It's not just margin of error buoyancy, in just about every national and state poll, the race has tightened.

That said, I still think Trump will lose at the end of the day but Clinton will not be able to coast to the finish.

After this latest speech I expect his numbers to fall again.
 
So, my boyfriend and I went for breakfast. Because, like, we're old and boring and go for breakfast at 8 am on a Thursday after the kids are in school.

And we went to Cracker Barrel (I had the country boy breakfast, eggs over medium, steak well done, fried apples, hashbrown casserole, biscuits with apple butter and gravy). There were like 15 old, white men eating together. At least 5 of them had something Trumpish on, and like four cars in the parking lot had Trump shit on their car.

They didn't seem to like my YASSSS Hillary shirt. If any of them could have stood up independently, I think they might have kicked my ass.

Also, Britney Spears is trash. Derrick Berry if I have to, but that's only because he's a better lip sync artist than Brittney. Although, at least Brittney (or her gay) knows how to paint an eyebrow.

Britney Spears slander?

disgust

She was a thing you know!!
 
Not all that familiar with Arizona, but I would expect a bump after his primary win.

Can you imagine Trump winning Arizona but McCain losing?
For reference, in 2012 Romney won Arizona by 9ish points but the Republican candidate for Senate (Jeff Flake) only won by 3 points.

But I agree it would be very weird if Trump outran McCain by any margin, that's why Clinton competing in the state is encouraging news. Kirkpatrick could also win by plurality if enough Trump supporters decide McCain isn't good enough and skip the Senate race.
 

Kusagari

Member
Good to see Wisconsin give Hill the biggest lead in that set because I've seen way too many people freaking about that state the last few days.
 
Strickland polls

ahahahahaha

Can we really blame him though, was Portman really vulnerable? he's no Toomey /Johnson

Against a decent candidate, I think Portman could have been a bit more vulnerable this year. But, they'd have had to be damn near perfect. With our bench being what it is, there wasn't anyone who was going to make a good run of it, to be honest. Strickland was probably the best option. Sittenfeld would have done as well, I think. I mean, Strickland is a total "hold your nose and vote for me" candidate. His gun stance is shit, and that's nearly a deal breaker for me. Strickland needed to go on the offense almost immediately...and he didn't. Because he's terrible. :(

Also, I just want to point this out again:

Those IPSOS things aren't "real" polls. They are real in that they exist, someone did them, and they aren't just pulled out of a hat. They're models based on breakdowns of their national tracking poll. Then, they add their own weights to it.

We talked about this the other day. For example, they assume that 70% of white men will vote. This will not happen. 70% of eligible white men aren't even registered to vote, number one, and, number two, that number has never, ever been higher than 65% (and in the last three or four elections has been in the low 60s). They also assume that only 60% of black women will vote, which would be a 10% decrease from 2012, and the lowest participation rate among black women since 1984. I also *think* they assume that only 32% of eligible Hispanic voters will turn out, and that the electorate will only be 13% people under 30.

None of these are good assumptions. Their whole thing is a version of Nate's model, really, if the only polls Nate used was IPSOS.

This is not unskewing, btw. It's just t.
 

Zukkoyaki

Member
Against a decent candidate, I think Portman could have been a bit more vulnerable this year. But, they'd have had to be damn near perfect. With our bench being what it is, there wasn't anyone who was going to make a good run of it, to be honest. Strickland was probably the best option. Sittenfeld would have done as well, I think. I mean, Strickland is a total "hold your nose and vote for me" candidate. His gun stance is shit, and that's nearly a deal breaker for me. Strickland needed to go on the offense almost immediately...and he didn't. Because he's terrible. :(

Also, I just want to point this out again:

Those IPSOS things aren't "real" polls. They are real in that they exist, someone did them, and they aren't just pulled out of a hat. They're models based on breakdowns of their national tracking poll. Then, they add their own weights to it.

We talked about this the other day. For example, they assume that 70% of white men will vote. This will not happen. 70% of eligible white men aren't even registered to vote, number one, and, number two, that number has never, ever been higher than 65% (and in the last three or four elections has been in the low 60s). They also assume that only 60% of black women will vote, which would be a 10% decrease from 2012, and the lowest participation rate among black women since 1984. I also *think* they assume that only 32% of eligible Hispanic voters will turn out, and that the electorate will only be 13% people under 30.

None of these are good assumptions. Their whole thing is a version of Nate's model, really, if the only polls Nate used was IPSOS.

This is not unskewing, btw. It's just t.

Even through all of their smoke they still have Hillary at 95% chance to win
 

Gruco

Banned
First, it’s not politically insightful or sharp to suggest that presidential races in modern America coming in at one party holding an 8 point lead in early August will tighten as the race progresses, partisans come home, and convention bounces fade.

I’m a little frustrated with the daily microanalysis that people are doing and freaking out about on a regular basis. I swear I see more kvetching about biased media reporting, Don Lemon, one or two polls in a series of 10 polls, and Katrina Pierson than I do in places that supposedly are full of political neophytes. This is in many ways one of the least interesting elections in the modern era. The fundamentals of this election are sound: the economy is OK, the outgoing president is popular, and the other party’s nominee is almost cripplingly challenged by demographics. Oh, and Hillary is building the largest campaign apparatus in history to get everyone out to vote.

TBH the micro-analysis in this thread is pretty tedious and honestly offers almost no insight 99% of the time. That's mostly fine honestly, I get that this thread is full of people who naturally obsess over this stuff, which makes it a hyper aware community. There are a lot of good things that come with the territory on that, even if that can lead to a lot of noise to filter through.

By my estimation there are only two moments that I think meaningfully changed the state of the race. The first was the Curiel-Pulse response in June, and the second was the post convention-Khan implosion. The first we never got to see sink in because it was immediately followed by the FBI and convention season. But it's been a month since the second, and we still see the double digit 270, the crippling demographic weakness, and it's already too late for Trump to make up anything meaningful on GOTV.

It's going to be really hard to shake my confidence in this race. I would like to see a greater Trump breakdown and was for a moment hopeful to see this after the Ryan/McCain/Aoyette infighting. I'm nowhere near confident on the house, as no one should be. But even the great alt-right speech or Trump in Mexico is mostly campaign noise in the backdrop of a really strong set of fundamentals which have never really been threatened. I wish people cared more about Hillary's policy memos, but such is the world we live in.
 

Boke1879

Member
I think the polls will be fluctuating until we get to the first debate and into October where shit goes into overdrive.

There's just way too much noise and shit right now.
 
Well I called it.

When you guys were going nuts over the Trump early August implosion and declaring the race over, I told you if Trump narrows it back down to 3-4 points by labor day, we'll have a ball game.

Going by the latest polls, Trump is going to do just that by this weekend. It's not just margin of error buoyancy, in just about every national and state poll, the race has tightened.

That said, I still think Trump will lose at the end of the day but Clinton will not be able to coast to the finish.

The race in 2012 was never as wide as it was now. She's still up by 5-6 points. Yes, it's not a 7-9 point race anymore. It tightened! It's still not that close of an election today.
 
For reference, in 2012 Romney won Arizona by 9ish points but the Republican candidate for Senate (Jeff Flake) only won by 3 points.

But I agree it would be very weird if Trump outran McCain by any margin, that's why Clinton competing in the state is encouraging news. Kirkpatrick could also win by plurality if enough Trump supporters decide McCain isn't good enough and skip the Senate race.

When I see a poll with Kirkpatrick consistently ahead, I'll start to believe.

Outside of PPP (her best poll), CNN/ORC has McCain +13 (52%). I think McCain will outperform Trump.
 
Hillary is right to be hiding. No need to insert herself in the circus. Not like people dont know her. Let Trump suck all the oxygen, and start holding rallies after Labor day. That is when things are in microscope mode leading all the way to the first debate, which can be quite easily the biggest make or break case for either candidate. Hillary has been quietly studying debate tactics and policy details even employing people who know Trump intimately, whereas Trump is demonizing people and pulling stupid publicity stunts.

Likelihood of Trump bombing the debate is probably around 99%. Her polling will go back to post-convention and stay there.
 
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