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PoliGAF 2016 |OT11| Well this is exciting

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S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
sphagnum said:
Why do you guys always want to start from from a more moderate position? Regardless of whatever you think can be realistically achieved, you should always start off swinging for the fences.
Click to expand...

It is assinine to think the US government should forgive student loan debt for everyone for free. I don't think we should forgive student loan debt at all, but that's just me. Everyone I know who is desperate to have their student loans forgiven has multiple terminal degrees in something that has almost no job potential (I no joke, know at least 7 people with PHDs in Library Sciences, one of which is actually working in the field and is quitting), *or* had high paying jobs, decided they weren't "creative" enough and decided to stop being a lawyer with 120K in student loan debt so they could go back to school and get a PHD in creative writing. I am sure it is not easy finding jobs out there right now, but my first job out of college was answering phones for 28,000 dollars a year and I worked my way up from there.

I *literally* grew up in a single wide trailer without running hot water or air conditioning and only a single working parent. I managed to get through college living at home and working 20 hours a week with 4,000 dollars in debt at the end of the day and worked my ass off to get where I am.

I am a liberal because I think there should be a social safety net for people who are poor. People who have fallen on hard times, and for people for whom globalization and technology have made their skillset obsolete. I want affordable healthcare for everyone because I think it's a universal right and I want a fair system to help those that are disadvantaged in this country, either socio-economically or because they are from a minority group that is discriminated against. I want gun control and regulations that keep us both safer and protect the environment. Forgiving student loans is way down on my "things to spend political capital on" list.

The average tuition at a public 4 year college would be about 40,000 dollars, with another 10,000 in books. If you are graduating with more than 50,000 dollars in student debt (and making 8 dollars an hour for 20 hours a week could get that amount down even lower), you were either going to a private school, and out of state school, or you are financing your lifestyle of student debt. Of the people I know, I have gotten most to admit that study abroad, keggers, rent and trips to the bar are actually included in their "student loans".

This is one of my real pull yourself up by your bootstraps moments. I just have very very little sympathy for people who are unwilling to work part time during school or save money here and there to get out cheaply.

This is one of those moments where I realize I am old, because Bernie supporters giving so much of a shit about free college and what government can do for them pisses me right the fuck off.

I'm a democrat because I want to help other people who need it more than me. This business about free college and forgiving student debt seems like a "whats in it for me" moment, and it really rubs me the wrong way. It's everything that the right has been accusing the left of for decades. I'm a proud lifelong progressive, and its not because I get anything out of it. It's because I want kids who grew up the way I did (or worse) to have a path out of poverty, and a bunch of middle-class kids screaming about wanting their existing student loans forgiven by the government is a bridge too far.

/endoldmansoapboxrant
 
C

Crocodile

Member
You want to start at a position further out than the minimum you would be satisfied with but I do think there is a real danger to staking a starting position that is SO FAR OUT THERE that the people who have to fight with (or even your allies) just think you're crazy and leave the bargaining table without bothering to listen to anything else you have to say.

Also all the things Gotchaye said.

EDIT: I agree with a lot of what StoOgE had to say too
 
U

User 463088

Banned
StoOgE said:
It is assinine to think the US government should forgive student loan debt for everyone for free. I don't think we should forgive student loan debt at all, but that's just me. Everyone I know who is desperate to have their student loans forgiven has multiple terminal degrees in something that has almost no job potential (I no joke, know at least 7 people with PHDs in Library Sciences, one of which is actually working in the field and is quitting), *or* had high paying jobs, decided they weren't "creative" enough and decided to stop being a lawyer with 120K in student loan debt so they could go back to school and get a PHD in creative writing. I am sure it is not easy finding jobs out there right now, but my first job out of college was answering phones for 28,000 dollars a year and I worked my way up from there.

I *literally* grew up in a single wide trailer without running hot water or air conditioning and only a single working parent. I managed to get through college living at home and working 20 hours a week with 4,000 dollars in debt at the end of the day and worked my ass off to get where I am.

I am a liberal because I think there should be a social safety net for people who are poor. People who have fallen on hard times, and for people for whom globalization and technology have made their skillset obsolete. I want affordable healthcare for everyone because I think it's a universal right and I want a fair system to help those that are disadvantaged in this country, either socio-economically or because they are from a minority group that is discriminated against. I want gun control and regulations that keep us both safer and protect the environment. Forgiving student loans is way down on my "things to spend political capital on" list.

The average tuition at a public 4 year college would be about 40,000 dollars, with another 10,000 in books. If you are graduating with more than 50,000 dollars in student debt, you were either going to a private school, and out of state school, or you are financing your lifestyle of student debt. Of the people I know, I have gotten most to admit that study abroad, keggers, rent and trips to the bar are actually included in their "student loans".

This is one of my real pull yourself up by your bootstraps moments. I just have very very little sympathy for people who are unwilling to work part time during school or save money here and there to get out cheaply.

This is one of those moments where I realize I am old, because Bernie supporters giving so much of a shit about free college and what government can do for them pisses me right the fuck off.

I'm a democrat because I want to help other people who need it more than me. This business about free college and forgiving student debt seems like a "whats in it for me" moment, and it really rubs me the wrong way. It's everything that the right has been accusing the left of for decades. I'm a proud lifelong progressive, and its not because I get anything out of it. It's because I want kids who grew up the way I did (or worse) to have a path out of poverty, and a bunch of kids screaming about wanting their existing student loans forgiven by the government is a bridge too far.

/endoldmansoapboxrant
Click to expand...

tumblr_n3ohxs16Z91qlvwnco1_500.gif


Amen.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
StoOgE said:
The average tuition at a public 4 year college would be about 40,000 dollars, with another 10,000 in books. If you are graduating with more than 50,000 dollars in student debt, you were either going to a private school, and out of state school, or you are financing your lifestyle of student debt. Of the people I know, I have gotten most to admit that study abroad, keggers, rent and trips to the bar are actually included in their "student loans".

This is one of my real pull yourself up by your bootstraps moments. I just have very very little sympathy for people who are unwilling to work part time during school or save money here and there to get out cheaply.

This is one of those moments where I realize I am old, because Bernie supporters giving so much of a shit about free college and what government can do for them pisses me right the fuck off.
Click to expand...
This is similar to where I land. I'm maybe a bit more for aggressive moves to make education affordable (a plan for debt free in-state college is something I'd be 100% on board with) but its crazy to me how much debt some people manage to rack up if they aren't going for a law or medical degree.

I was genuinely shocked when I learned that people used loan money for rent, food, and personal expenses; that didn't even occur to me.
 
N

NeoXChaos

Member
The Technomancer said:
This is similar to where I land. I'm maybe a bit more for aggressive moves to make education affordable (a plan for debt free in-state college is something I'd be 100% on board with) but its crazy to me how much debt some people manage to rack up if they aren't going for a law or medical degree.

I was genuinely shocked when I learned that people used loan money for rent, food, and personal expenses; that didn't even occur to me.
Click to expand...

yeah. Whatever is left of the loan you take out that you had to pay for tuition is given to you as a "refund check". You can use it however you like.
 
B

BronzeWolf

Banned
Veelk said:
How'd you manage that?
Click to expand...

I live in a country with free basic education and heavily subsidized colleges and universities. I also had medical insurance as long as I was a full time student.

Not all careers are as cheap though. Things like Culinary Arts, Performance Arts and Graphic Design have to pay quite a bit more but they end up costing about $3,000 total.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
The Technomancer said:
This is similar to where I land. I'm maybe a bit more for aggressive moves to make education affordable (a plan for debt free in-state college is something I'd be 100% on board with) but its crazy to me how much debt some people manage to rack up if they aren't going for a law or medical degree.

I was genuinely shocked when I learned that people used loan money for rent, food, and personal expenses; that didn't even occur to me.
Click to expand...

I am in favor of 100% free community college tuition. No restrictions on income. You want to get a 2 year degree, free. That's for AS degrees in career fields (nursing, law enforcement, baking and pastry whatever.) That's also for AA degrees which can be in anything, so far as I'm concerned. This gives you a solid post-high school footing. It gives you a chance to find your passion without blowing up your future with debt.

I'm also (mostly) fine with debt free in-state tuition, and moving Pell grants to funding housing, food and books.
 
P

Pyrokai

Member
StoOgE said:
It is assinine to think the US government should forgive student loan debt for everyone for free. I don't think we should forgive student loan debt at all, but that's just me. Everyone I know who is desperate to have their student loans forgiven has multiple terminal degrees in something that has almost no job potential (I no joke, know at least 7 people with PHDs in Library Sciences, one of which is actually working in the field and is quitting), *or* had high paying jobs, decided they weren't "creative" enough and decided to stop being a lawyer with 120K in student loan debt so they could go back to school and get a PHD in creative writing. I am sure it is not easy finding jobs out there right now, but my first job out of college was answering phones for 28,000 dollars a year and I worked my way up from there.

I *literally* grew up in a single wide trailer without running hot water or air conditioning and only a single working parent. I managed to get through college living at home and working 20 hours a week with 4,000 dollars in debt at the end of the day and worked my ass off to get where I am.

I am a liberal because I think there should be a social safety net for people who are poor. People who have fallen on hard times, and for people for whom globalization and technology have made their skillset obsolete. I want affordable healthcare for everyone because I think it's a universal right and I want a fair system to help those that are disadvantaged in this country, either socio-economically or because they are from a minority group that is discriminated against. I want gun control and regulations that keep us both safer and protect the environment. Forgiving student loans is way down on my "things to spend political capital on" list.

The average tuition at a public 4 year college would be about 40,000 dollars, with another 10,000 in books. If you are graduating with more than 50,000 dollars in student debt (and making 8 dollars an hour for 20 hours a week could get that amount down even lower), you were either going to a private school, and out of state school, or you are financing your lifestyle of student debt. Of the people I know, I have gotten most to admit that study abroad, keggers, rent and trips to the bar are actually included in their "student loans".

This is one of my real pull yourself up by your bootstraps moments. I just have very very little sympathy for people who are unwilling to work part time during school or save money here and there to get out cheaply.

This is one of those moments where I realize I am old, because Bernie supporters giving so much of a shit about free college and what government can do for them pisses me right the fuck off.

I'm a democrat because I want to help other people who need it more than me. This business about free college and forgiving student debt seems like a "whats in it for me" moment, and it really rubs me the wrong way. It's everything that the right has been accusing the left of for decades. I'm a proud lifelong progressive, and its not because I get anything out of it. It's because I want kids who grew up the way I did (or worse) to have a path out of poverty, and a bunch of middle-class kids screaming about wanting their existing student loans forgiven by the government is a bridge too far.

/endoldmansoapboxrant
Click to expand...

Sincere, but I can't help but feel sad.

I have a bachelor's degree, don't really like what I do and can't excel in my field, and have 60k of student loan debt. I'm selling my car so that I can make payments. Literally right now I'm sitting at CarMax waiting for the appraisal to end. Here's the kicker: it's been 60k for four years because all I can pay is the minimum amount. Every month I pay about $600 to my loans, and only about 10-20 is applied to the principle.

My life sucks and I don't know how to get out of this. If I think about this too much, I'll start to cry so I'm going to stop now :(

Edit: Anyway, that's why I'm voting for Hillary. Also the SCOTUS. If she can manage to just cut the absurd interest rates, that alone would make the world of a difference for me.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
StoOgE said:
It is assinine to think the US government should forgive student loan debt for everyone for free. I don't think we should forgive student loan debt at all, but that's just me. Everyone I know who is desperate to have their student loans forgiven has multiple terminal degrees in something that has almost no job potential (I no joke, know at least 7 people with PHDs in Library Sciences, one of which is actually working in the field and is quitting), *or* had high paying jobs, decided they weren't "creative" enough and decided to stop being a lawyer with 120K in student loan debt so they could go back to school and get a PHD in creative writing. I am sure it is not easy finding jobs out there right now, but my first job out of college was answering phones for 28,000 dollars a year and I worked my way up from there.

I *literally* grew up in a single wide trailer without running hot water or air conditioning and only a single working parent. I managed to get through college living at home and working 20 hours a week with 4,000 dollars in debt at the end of the day and worked my ass off to get where I am.

I am a liberal because I think there should be a social safety net for people who are poor. People who have fallen on hard times, and for people for whom globalization and technology have made their skillset obsolete. I want affordable healthcare for everyone because I think it's a universal right and I want a fair system to help those that are disadvantaged in this country, either socio-economically or because they are from a minority group that is discriminated against. I want gun control and regulations that keep us both safer and protect the environment. Forgiving student loans is way down on my "things to spend political capital on" list.

The average tuition at a public 4 year college would be about 40,000 dollars, with another 10,000 in books. If you are graduating with more than 50,000 dollars in student debt (and making 8 dollars an hour for 20 hours a week could get that amount down even lower), you were either going to a private school, and out of state school, or you are financing your lifestyle of student debt. Of the people I know, I have gotten most to admit that study abroad, keggers, rent and trips to the bar are actually included in their "student loans".

This is one of my real pull yourself up by your bootstraps moments. I just have very very little sympathy for people who are unwilling to work part time during school or save money here and there to get out cheaply.

This is one of those moments where I realize I am old, because Bernie supporters giving so much of a shit about free college and what government can do for them pisses me right the fuck off.

I'm a democrat because I want to help other people who need it more than me. This business about free college and forgiving student debt seems like a "whats in it for me" moment, and it really rubs me the wrong way. It's everything that the right has been accusing the left of for decades. I'm a proud lifelong progressive, and its not because I get anything out of it. It's because I want kids who grew up the way I did (or worse) to have a path out of poverty, and a bunch of middle-class kids screaming about wanting their existing student loans forgiven by the government is a bridge too far.

/endoldmansoapboxrant
Click to expand...

To be honest, I could not care less about your personal beliefs or the morality of students making stupid choices with their money or whatever. I'm more concerned with making college free in general and lifting the economic burden that people who have huge student loan debt have to deal with since it bogs down everything else.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
The Technomancer said:
This is similar to where I land. I'm maybe a bit more for aggressive moves to make education affordable (a plan for debt free in-state college is something I'd be 100% on board with) but its crazy to me how much debt some people manage to rack up if they aren't going for a law or medical degree.

I was genuinely shocked when I learned that people used loan money for rent, food, and personal expenses; that didn't even occur to me.
Click to expand...

I think there is a lot that should be done to curb the current education system. I think freely available student loans have lead to lots of universities creating "profit centers". i.e. starting up law schools that are not going to get you hired anywhere because it brings in money.

I think higher education has lots of problems that can be smartly tackled, but I think there is some ownership both ways. I have a friend right now who worked for a Big 5 lawfirm, quit and is getting the single most useless degree I have ever heard of. It basically qualifies you to be a professor at one of 3 schools who offers it and 10% of graduates wind up getting one of those jobs. But she is the loudest about needing her student loans forgiven. She has at least 8 trips abroad and Hamilton tickets included in her "student debt" that I have first hand experience of.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
The Technomancer said:
This is similar to where I land. I'm maybe a bit more for aggressive moves to make education affordable (a plan for debt free in-state college is something I'd be 100% on board with) but its crazy to me how much debt some people manage to rack up if they aren't going for a law or medical degree.

I was genuinely shocked when I learned that people used loan money for rent, food, and personal expenses; that didn't even occur to me.
Click to expand...

Using it for rent and food makes sense, since it's part of the overall cost of college away from home.

That said, I worked part time all through college.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Pyrokai said:
Sincere, but I can't help but feel sad.

I have a bachelor's degree, don't really like what I do and can't excel in my field, and have 60k of student loan debt. I'm selling my car so that I can make payments. Literally right now I'm sitting at CarMax waiting for the appraisal to end. Here's the kicker: it's been 60k for four years because all I can pay is the minimum amount. Every month I pay about $600 to my loans, and only about 10-20 is applied to the principle.

My life sucks and I don't know how to get out of this. If I think about this too much, I'll start to cry so I'm going to stop now :(
Click to expand...
Are you not on a 10 year repayment plan with the minimum payments?
 
D

dramatis

Member
Supreme Court Faces Volatile, Even if Not Blockbuster, Docket [NY Times]

We got quite a number of cases coming along.
“This term’s cases are not snoozers,” said Elizabeth B. Wydra, the president of the Constitutional Accountability Center, a liberal group. “This term features important cases about racial bias in the criminal justice system, voting rights and redistricting, immigration and detention, and accountability for big banks that engaged in racially discriminatory mortgage lending practices.”

There are, moreover, major cases on the horizon, including ones on whether a transgender boy may use the boys’ restroom in a Virginia high school and on whether a Colorado baker may refuse to serve a same-sex couple.

“If either of these cases is taken, it will almost immediately become the highest profile case on the court’s docket,” said Steven Shapiro, the legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union.

There is also the possibility that a dispute over the outcome of the presidential election could end up at the Supreme Court, as it did in 2000 in Bush v. Gore.
Click to expand...
What the shit?
On Wednesday, the court will hear arguments in Buck v. Davis, No. 15-8049. It arose from an extraordinary assertion by an expert witness in the death penalty trial of Duane Buck, who was convicted of the 1995 murders of a former girlfriend and one of her friends while her young children watched. The expert, presented by the defense, said that black men are more likely to present a risk of future danger.

The justices will decide whether Mr. Buck, who is black, may challenge his death sentence based on the ineffectiveness of the trial lawyer who presented that testimony.
Click to expand...
On Oct. 11, the court will consider another biased statement, this one ascribed to a juror during deliberations in a sexual assault trial. “I think he did it because he’s Mexican, and Mexican men take whatever they want,” the juror said of the defendant, according to a sworn statement from a second juror.

The question in the case, Peña Rodriguez v. Colorado, No. 15-606, is how to balance the interest in keeping jury deliberations secret against the importance of ridding the criminal justice system of racial and ethnic bias.
Click to expand...
On Thursday, the court agreed to decide another charged case, Lee v. Tam, No. 15-1293, which asks whether the government may deny federal protection to a trademark said to disparage Asian-Americans. The case will probably effectively decide a separate one concerning the Washington Redskins football team.
Click to expand...
A buttload more cases at the link.
 
N

NeoXChaos

Member
It's not even that "student loan debt" is a problem. The problem is the jobs are either not there or too low wage to pay it off. Nor is there a guarantee of getting a good job out of college. It might take one a few years to get a good paying job after college especially if the market is tough.
 
T

thebloo

Member
The Technomancer said:
Eh, I think access to higher education in some form should be free for all. Access to "whatever college you want" probably shouldn't
Click to expand...

I don't disagree.

sphagnum said:
The second is debatable but the first, to me, is self defeating. Starting off moderate means that your final outcome will end up even more moderate or even right leaning.

If you want something watered down in the first place, start off making demands you know won't be met.
Click to expand...

I think you're using moderate as a political "location", while I was using it as the antonym of extreme.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
StoOgE said:
I think there is a lot that should be done to curb the current education system. I think freely available student loans have lead to lots of universities creating "profit centers". i.e. starting up law schools that are not going to get you hired anywhere because it brings in money.

I think higher education has lots of problems that can be smartly tackled, but I think there is some ownership both ways. I have a friend right now who worked for a Big 5 lawfirm, quit and is getting the single most useless degree I have ever heard of. It basically qualifies you to be a professor at one of 3 schools who offers it and 10% of graduates wind up getting one of those jobs. But she is the loudest about needing her student loans forgiven. She has at least 8 trips abroad and Hamilton tickets included in her "student debt" that I have first hand experience of.
Click to expand...
I think there's a bit of a "welfare queen" effect here where everyone knows someone who actually does just sit around and use SNAP to save money that they then spend on video games or whatever.

But I have difficulty in general understanding how people get 80k+ in loans without being reckless, is the thing. Maybe that's why I struggle with this one.
 
O

Owzers

Member
Hugh Hewitt on AM Joy, when talking about stop and frisk, pivots to the Hillary leaked tape about sanders supporters saying that will dominate the media for the next 24 hours.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
Pyrokai said:
Sincere, but I can't help but feel sad.

I have a bachelor's degree, don't really like what I do and can't excel in my field, and have 60k of student loan debt. I'm selling my car so that I can make payments. Literally right now I'm sitting at CarMax waiting for the appraisal to end. Here's the kicker: it's been 60k for four years because all I can pay is the minimum amount. Every month I pay about $600 to my loans, and only about 10-20 is applied to the principle.

My life sucks and I don't know how to get out of this. If I think about this too much, I'll start to cry so I'm going to stop now :(

Edit: Anyway, that's why I'm voting for Hillary. Also the SCOTUS. If she can manage to just cut the absurd interest rates, that alone would make the world of a difference for me.
Click to expand...

You should be on income sensitive repayment plans. Make sure you're on the best possible plan you can get. Because, if you have $60,000 in loans, and you're not making much over $50,000 a year, your payments could be as low as $300 or $400. (even lower if you're making less). Check out the IBR and the Extended Graduated options
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Pyrokai said:
Sincere, but I can't help but feel sad.

I have a bachelor's degree, don't really like what I do and can't excel in my field, and have 60k of student loan debt. I'm selling my car so that I can make payments. Literally right now I'm sitting at CarMax waiting for the appraisal to end. Here's the kicker: it's been 60k for four years because all I can pay is the minimum amount. Every month I pay about $600 to my loans, and only about 10-20 is applied to the principle.

My life sucks and I don't know how to get out of this. If I think about this too much, I'll start to cry so I'm going to stop now :(

Edit: Anyway, that's why I'm voting for Hillary. Also the SCOTUS. If she can manage to just cut the absurd interest rates, that alone would make the world of a difference for me.
Click to expand...

Have you looked into IBR? Have you considered public service loan forgiveness? 600 a month on 60K of loans sounds very high.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Negotiating with Congress isn't like negotiating with one guy, you're literally negotiating with hundreds of people at once, who are all negotiating with each other at the same time. Some of them will be permanently turned off if you start from a very extreme position and will not be willing to listen even if you moderate it because they'll just assume it's crap. You have to know how many votes you need then negotiate with those people, all at once. By starting closer to the center you're more likely to get more people on the same page faster and get anything through.
 
S

SexyFish

Banned
Owzers said:
Hugh Hewitt on AM Joy, when talking about stop and frisk, pivots to the Hillary leaked tape about sanders supporters saying that will dominate the media for the next 24 hours.
Click to expand...

LOL. Fuck me he's adamant. Round 2. "Sheriff David Clarke is a good outreach to African Americans, right? ALSO HILLARY CLINTON BASEMENT VIDEO AH"
 
U

User 463088

Banned
Like, my cousin who was a hard core Berner, but did come around to voting for Hillary, listened to it. I was expecting a six page email this morning. Her response was "Damn. She actually listened to what we were saying."

So, ya.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
The Technomancer said:
But I have difficulty in general understanding how people get 80k+ in loans without being reckless, is the thing. Maybe that's why I struggle with this one.
Click to expand...

This is where I'm at.

I'm not saying that debt can't be crippling, and there should probably be means based ways to reduce or forgive debt (just like there is for any bankruptcy filing), but an across the board wiping clean of the slate without any sort of hurdle to jump through is further than I am willing to go.

I'm sympathetic, and I know there are people out there with real problems. Hell, I know some friends from my neighborhood who got hooked into for profit colleges and are fucked (which should be illegal and are a separate issue from 'student debt' at large). It's just in a world where I know people who have 90 minute bus rides to get to work whose electricity is shut off constantly, I have a hard time thinking that the biggest issue in America is student debt.

I also don't like a political revolution that was largely aimed at helping out the members of said revolution. Then again, it's why I don't like populism in general.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Valhelm said:
"We have to go after their families"
Click to expand...

Russia killing everyone in east Aleppo under the guise that a few people there might be Al-Qaeda is something that might be a bit too extreme for Trump though.

Anyway, I have to think Murtaza Hussain is about to quit The Intercept after their hiring of Rania Khalek who is cheerleading Russian propaganda in Syria about Al-Qaeda. Hussain has been calling out all tankies as idiots and monsters while Greenwald and other journalists there have been carrying water for Assad.
 
C

CoffeeJanitor

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Putin going hard after Al-Qaeda by murdering 100 children, what a strong guy.
Click to expand...
I honestly can't wait to see a more active and influential America in the next presidency.

I don't know what the right move is but I do think that inaction has harmed us a bit, especially when it comes to idiot demagogues like Putin.
 
E

East Lake

Member
StoOgE said:
It is assinine to think the US government should forgive student loan debt for everyone for free. I don't think we should forgive student loan debt at all, but that's just me. Everyone I know who is desperate to have their student loans forgiven has multiple terminal degrees in something that has almost no job potential (I no joke, know at least 7 people with PHDs in Library Sciences, one of which is actually working in the field and is quitting), *or* had high paying jobs, decided they weren't "creative" enough and decided to stop being a lawyer with 120K in student loan debt so they could go back to school and get a PHD in creative writing. I am sure it is not easy finding jobs out there right now, but my first job out of college was answering phones for 28,000 dollars a year and I worked my way up from there.
Click to expand...
That seems like a bad incentive. If the government or private market is going to loan people money for creative writing degrees, there's one person and two sophisticated entities that are encouraging it, when the person with the loan is better of denied in the first place.

I *literally* grew up in a single wide trailer without running hot water or air conditioning and only a single working parent. I managed to get through college living at home and working 20 hours a week with 4,000 dollars in debt at the end of the day and worked my ass off to get where I am.
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That's fantastic.

I am a liberal because I think there should be a social safety net for people who are poor. People who have fallen on hard times, and for people for whom globalization and technology have made their skillset obsolete. I want affordable healthcare for everyone because I think it's a universal right and I want a fair system to help those that are disadvantaged in this country, either socio-economically or because they are from a minority group that is discriminated against. I want gun control and regulations that keep us both safer and protect the environment. Forgiving student loans is way down on my "things to spend political capital on" list.
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People who are poor or have fallen on hard times often will have made "bad decisions" roughly comparable to your anecdotes about people who took on too much debt. It's not necessarily a large mass of people who have all been beaten down by external forces. Shouldn't they have anticipated their skill going obsolete, the same way you knew not to graduate into a dying field?

Could the financial crisis have been avoided if all the sub-prime borrowers had actually refused to borrow?

Should people who eat too much or are cavalier with how they handle their own body have access to this universal healthcare, and why should health care be universal? It requires labor like anything else.

The average tuition at a public 4 year college would be about 40,000 dollars, with another 10,000 in books. If you are graduating with more than 50,000 dollars in student debt (and making 8 dollars an hour for 20 hours a week could get that amount down even lower), you were either going to a private school, and out of state school, or you are financing your lifestyle of student debt. Of the people I know, I have gotten most to admit that study abroad, keggers, rent and trips to the bar are actually included in their "student loans".
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My initial impression is that you might like these people less than "the poor" is because you've had personal experiences with them.

This is one of my real pull yourself up by your bootstraps moments. I just have very very little sympathy for people who are unwilling to work part time during school or save money here and there to get out cheaply.

This is one of those moments where I realize I am old, because Bernie supporters giving so much of a shit about free college and what government can do for them pisses me right the fuck off.

I'm a democrat because I want to help other people who need it more than me. This business about free college and forgiving student debt seems like a "whats in it for me" moment, and it really rubs me the wrong way. It's everything that the right has been accusing the left of for decades. I'm a proud lifelong progressive, and its not because I get anything out of it. It's because I want kids who grew up the way I did (or worse) to have a path out of poverty, and a bunch of middle-class kids screaming about wanting their existing student loans forgiven by the government is a bridge too far.

/endoldmansoapboxrant
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I think it's more you've been colored by personal experience. "Free college" seems to work fairly well in other countries and it seems normal to import ideas from systems that work better, anecdotes aside.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
adam387 said:
Like, my cousin who was a hard core Berner, but did come around to voting for Hillary, listened to it. I was expecting a six page email this morning. Her response was "Damn. She actually listened to what we were saying."

So, ya.
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If this winds up being the thing that helps her finally get those dudes in line I will laugh my ass off.
 
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