Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
He's also a chickenshit, so.
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT12| The last days of the Republic
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
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He didn't cancel, the Trump campaign replaced him with a campaign insider (Giuliani) likely so they could control the messaging.
This is even worse!
I can't tell if Hillary should go sympathetic or hard aggressive on the accusations she's a rape enabler. I see it both ways. I think It's pretty terrible if anything that people allege she did she actually did. It's obvious to me this is one area where political expediency might have compromised her actual beliefs/practices/policy. But it's sort of coming from the dying campaign of a raving madman so it is hard to tell how to react.
But I agree with HTupolev. It's not to be taken lightly.
Again I think this comes down to what the candidate actually thinks.
Hillary doesn't believe she did anything wrong. I genuinely believe that. So her answer was shit for a long time.
I think she has been on the defensive about Bill's bullshit for 20 years and should hopefully have arrived at some consistent internal place psychologically on how she deals with it. But I'm afraid.
But I agree with HTupolev. It's not to be taken lightly.
I'm comparing that she knew the email server would be an issue and it took her and her staff a while to finally come up with a clear, concise answer to it. Just assuming that she will have a great answer for the Bill accusations right out of the gate isn't a given. That's all. I'm not comparing the severity of the issues or anything.
Again I think this comes down to what the candidate actually thinks.
Hillary doesn't believe she did anything wrong. I genuinely believe that. So her answer was shit for a long time.
I think she has been on the defensive about Bill's bullshit for 20 years and should hopefully have arrived at some consistent internal place psychologically on how she deals with it. But I'm afraid.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
How much would Hillary have to win by for Ted Strickland to win in Ohio?
I doubt she brings up anything about him being accused of rape. IMO she's going to stick to her guns and when it comes up she'll have an answer for it.
You guys have to remember. Trump is treading on light ground. If Trump brings this up himself at a Town Hall setting he's toast. Only other way it comes up is if Anderson asks it or someone in the Town hall.
I think it's about whether you think she should be playing prevent defense, or go for the kill. She can give some scripted and canned non-answer or she can highlight that she's a woman and he's a rapist and that his attempts at false equivalency would make women fume. If I were here, i'd try to kill him in this debate and not let him numbers crawl back up.
Manu Raju ‏@mkraju 40m40 minutes ago
Giuliani, leaving Trump Tower, signals Trump is ready to wage war against his party. "This is basically the insiders versus the outsiders."
.
FUCK YES!
Knuckle Sandwich
Member
Lol @ CNN playing Trump on Stern. As a guy who grew up listening to stern it is very surreal.
Apologies if this was already posted, but yeeeeeeeeep
Symone D. Sanders
Symone D. Sanders‏ @SymoneDSanders
You apparently can say whatever you want about Mexicans, Hispanics & Black people, but the Republican Party draws the line on white women.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
John McCain and Joe Heck going down.
8 X 11 Printer Paper
Member
Mmmmmmmmmm, delicious.
I can't tell if Hillary should go sympathetic or hard aggressive on the accusations she's a rape enabler. I see it both ways. I think It's pretty terrible if anything that people allege she did she actually did. It's obvious to me this is one area where political expediency might have compromised her actual beliefs/practices/policy. But it's sort of coming from the dying campaign of a raving madman so it is hard to tell how to react.
But I agree with HTupolev. It's not to be taken lightly.
She should go hard sympathy, defend women, say the 90s were a difficult time for her family and point out that Donald looks real desperate to deflect from his own comments.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Kumail Nanjiani‏ @kumailn 2h
"That's it, that's the last straw," they said, surrounded by billions of straws
.
How much would Hillary have to win by for Ted Strickland to win in Ohio?
By 20 or 30 points probably unless polls start to show portman losing support in polls soon. At this point I can see hilary winning ohio by around 5 points.
whyamihere
Banned
BYE BYE JOE HECK AND ROY BLUNT
I think it's about whether you think she should be playing prevent defense, or go for the kill. She can give some scripted and canned non-answer or she can highlight that she's a woman and he's a rapist and that his attempts at false equivalency would make women fume. If I were here, i'd try to kill him in this debate and not let him numbers crawl back up.
Nah. She shouldn't say that shit. You risk muddying the waters and "both sides" being called out. Focus on the Town hall. If he brings it up she gives and answer that pretty much shuts out that line of attack.
Don't accuse Trump of being a rapist. That'll most likely come out later on it's own anyway.
This is why it was always insane for the Republicans to believe that they could make a deal-with-the-devil with Trump when they had literally zero leverage over him. He has always shown that he is willing to take down the party with him (Jeet Heer's Samson theory, if you will).
If anything, he--and more importantly, his white nationalist base--already has his stab-in-the-back theory ready to go. It was the GOP who betrayed us. That's why we lost. If the GOP thinks that they can just pretend this cycle never happened, they're fucking idiots, destroying our democracy, etc. etc. but what else is new.
I can't tell if Hillary should go sympathetic or hard aggressive on the accusations she's a rape enabler. I see it both ways. I think It's pretty terrible if anything that people allege she did she actually did. It's obvious to me this is one area where political expediency might have compromised her actual beliefs/practices/policy. But it's sort of coming from the dying campaign of a raving madman so it is hard to tell how to react.
But I agree with HTupolev. It's not to be taken lightly.
What has changed in the past 16 years though? This was already litigated in the court of public opinion. (And congress). No one earned more sympathy and, frankly, political capital through that than Hillary.
So the argument plays well to the Fox News base... who cares?
Hillary campaign should put out some feelers and see if this is a successful angle for them to take.
hipsterpants
Member
BYE BYE JOE HECK AND ROY BLUNT
But Blunt still backs Trump?
I think he's probably toast now anyway.
Jesus people, Hillary will not and should not mention Trump's alleged rapes of anyone, are you fucking nuts
She's trying to be sympathetic, not lose everyone's votes
Why would mentioning that he's allegedly raped a bunch of women lose votes? His whole argument is that because people alleged that bill raped them, Bill raped them.
How does an alleged rapist make that argument to a women and get some canned political response without people feeling disappointed? She's the damn SOS, she's tough enough to stand up for women everywhere here.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
By 20 or 30 points probably unless polls start to show portman losing support in polls soon. At this point I can see hilary winning ohio by around 5 points.
I'm just trying to do a hypothetical to point out how pathetic Strickland's position is in the polls.
Officerrob
Banned
Lol @ CNN playing Trump on Stern. As a guy who grew up listening to stern it is very surreal.
I've listened to Stern most of my life, and he will absolutely love this
Randolph Freelander
Member
Trump is going to respond to these rescinded endorsements by rescinding on everybody.
"You're all coming with me!"
BronzeWolf
Banned
The Clinton's have been subject to the harshest public spotlight of any couple in the history of sexual relations, ever. It's already been litigated in the court of public opinion. Hillary has been through the trenches before and she's had this answer in her back pocket for the past 16 years. Probably longer when you think about the Flowers stuff.
Trying to pivot and attacking Trump for raping his wife is a beyond horrible strategy imo. You can't dignify the Broadarick line of attack with any kind response, you can't legitimize that "you enabled an abuser" line of attack under any circumstances--don't even entertain the possibility of a false equivalency. Let the tape speak for itself.
The criticism against the Clinton's is that they allowed their usual distractions to derail the highest office in the land and the country. No one is under any illusions that Trump will not do that, times a hundred. No one, other than Roger Ailes and Sean Hannity, actually finds this line of argumentation, on face, without context, without rebuttal, to even be persuasive. You can't just throw it out in a 30 sec debate soundbite without any evidence and expect people to find it convincing, in the least. Treat it the same way she treated the Blumenthal birther stuff - a non-sequitur not worthy of a response.
I like, "You are blaming me for Bill's infidelity, so do you blame Melania for yours?"
I think punching back on this issue is too much of a risk in getting in a mud fight. I think it's best for her to play the
"We have been the most scrutinized couple in the story of the US, and it is something that we have learned to live and thrive through during 30 years. I have heard the accusations in a court of law, which were found to lack validity.
These accusations have never been directed to me, but I have had to suffer 1st hand the consequences of a systemic condemnation. this I have for my whole political career supported the empowering of women... bla bla bla"
whyamihere
Banned
But Blunt still backs Trump?
I think he's probably toast now anyway.
Exactly!!!
Nah. She shouldn't say that shit. You risk muddying the waters and "both sides" being called out. Focus on the Town hall. If he brings it up she gives and answer that pretty much shuts out that line of attack.
Don't accuse Trump of being a rapist. That'll most likely come out later on it's own anyway.
It's already come out. The sworn deposition of his first wife and a 13 year old girl are in the legal system. She's doing it with the same validity of what he's attacking Bill with. They're both the same, but she's a woman. It works.
It's already come out. The sworn deposition of his first wife and a 13 year old girl are in the legal system. She's doing it with the same validity of what he's attacking Bill with. They're both the same, but she's a woman. It works.
Let that play out in the press. Keep leaking shit. But she can't be the messenger.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Thanks for that.This article covers it fairly well.
http://www.vox.com/2016/1/6/10722580/bill-clinton-juanita-broaddrick?0p19G=c
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Richard Burr has far less moral courage and cares less about the republic than Aaron Burr did.
Finale Fireworker
Member
She should go hard sympathy, defend women, say the 90s were a difficult time for her family and point out that Donald looks real desperate to deflect from his own comments.
I think it's important there are a few things she DOES NOT say.
1. Don't lean on "that was twenty years ago," because so was the Central Park 5. The passing of time cannot be her argument because that is also the deplorable's argument for the pussy-grabbing scandal.
2. Don't lean on the dishonesty of the accusers, because calling women who claim they were sexually assaulted liars is terrible, especially for Hillary who champions women's rights. While none of the accusations led to a verdict against her husband, Donald has prevented his fair share of trials by not admitting guilt. This particular defense would probably be the most unacceptable.
3. Don't lean Donald being worse or having an even more checkered past with sexual assault. That is literally the argument he is using against Bill. It would be useless to flip it back on him.
Between all these pitfalls is an answer that will work. I think Hillary is smart enough to avoid them all. But it's a tightrope, I think.
Let that play out in the press. Keep leaking shit. But she can't be the messenger.
I disagree here. This has to be nipped in the bud because it will Be the talking point the trump Campaign and surrogates use for a month.
If you think some canned political speak non-answer tomorrow is going to quell this forever, I disagree.
BronzeWolf
Banned
It's already come out. The sworn deposition of his first wife and a 13 year old girl are in the legal system. She's doing it with the same validity of what he's attacking Bill with. They're both the same, but she's a woman. It works.
This is too high risk. She will be pushed as an assertive bitch who encovered his rapist husband. Women might lose sympathy to her.
The most contrary position to that is not that of a hardcore liner, but as a 2nd hand victim that has grown above and beyond that and has come back to help other women-folk rise above.
This is why it was always insane for the Republicans to believe that they could make a deal-with-the-devil with Trump when they had literally zero leverage over him. He has always shown that he is willing to take down the party with him (Jeet Heer's Samson theory, if you will).
If anything, he--and more importantly, his white nationalist base--already has his stab-in-the-back theory ready to go. It was the GOP who betrayed us. That's why we lost. If the GOP thinks that they can just pretend this cycle never happened, they're fucking idiots, destroying our democracy, etc. etc. but what else is new.
What has changed in the past 16 years though? This was already litigated in the court of public opinion. (And congress). No one earned more sympathy and, frankly, political capital through that than Hillary.
So the argument plays well to the Fox News base... who cares?
No, you have to remember a big chunk of the Democratic voting block wasn't actually around for the 90s, so anything that demotivates or demoralizes them is dangerous. It IS an issue if Hillary's current line is in direct opposition to what she (allegedly) did in the 90s. Supposedly. Maybe. Again, it's all he said-she said I think.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Trump listening to Roger Ailes, Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, Rudy Giulani, and Chris Christie for debate prep means that he's going to fuck this up as badly as possible and Hillary will barely even need to respond.
Rockin' Ranger
Member
YES. You can't let them get away with this. If they're gonna try to take you down make sure they go down with you. GO GET 'EM DONNIE!
If anyone tries to forget, Cruz's opponents will make sure that it's impossible.No one is probably going to remember but yikes does the timing of Cruz's reendorsement of Trump look bad.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Hey, what's happening in Georgia? Not only did it not experience the bump that Arizona has had, but Alaska is ahead of it in 538.
I get the desire to play it safe, but this won't go away after tomorrow. They will call her an enabler and him a rapist for the next 30 days. And if she starts soft then attacks as time goes on, she'll look desperate. You have to end this tomorrow night. Or it will be a slow drip drip. She has to change the angle of the story and canned non-answers don't do that, ever.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
I just know that at some point in the next two weeks, Trump is going to go to a rally, list a bunch of names of GOPers who said that they would not vote for him, and then tell his rabid nutbar fanbase that he will not vote for those people, and they shouldn't either.
And it will be GLORIOUS that Trump won't give in, Trump won't give in.
This issue polls incredibly poorly for Trump. If he brings it up, a bog-standard "it was terrible, our faith kept us together, I would never threaten a woman and I stand up for them" answer with a bit of shade (something like "I am not my husband, Donald") is more than enough. Voters are already inclined to look poorly upon Trump for even bringing it up as a line of attack.
And it will be GLORIOUS that Trump won't give in, Trump won't give in.
I get the desire to play it safe, but this won't go away after tomorrow. They will call her an enabler and him a rapist for the next 30 days. And if she starts soft then attacks as time goes on, she'll look desperate. You have to end this tomorrow night. Or it will be a slow drip drip. She has to change the angle of the story and canned non-answers don't do that, ever.
This issue polls incredibly poorly for Trump. If he brings it up, a bog-standard "it was terrible, our faith kept us together, I would never threaten a woman and I stand up for them" answer with a bit of shade (something like "I am not my husband, Donald") is more than enough. Voters are already inclined to look poorly upon Trump for even bringing it up as a line of attack.
BronzeWolf
Banned
I get the desire to play it safe, but this won't go away after tomorrow. They will call her an enabler and him a rapist for the next 30 days. And if she starts soft then attacks as time goes on, she'll look desperate.
She can use oppo to block the narrative. It will be seen as the thrashings of a death campaign. They WILL try to bring it up, but tapes are fresher, better and more relatable to whatever Trumps narrative will bring
Knuckle Sandwich
Member
I've listened to Stern most of my life, and he will absolutely love this
No doubt. Being part of an issue of a friggin presidential race? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wYLxcCBZIgs
Hey, what's happening in Georgia? Not only did it not experience the bump that Arizona has had, but Alaska is ahead of it in 538.
538 added a internal GOP pollster that showed trump only up 3 in Alaska against hilary.
IA DMR
Trump 43
Hillary 39
It's amazing how gone Iowa is. But we knew that.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
IA DMR
Trump 43
Hillary 39
Clinton would be lucky to tie Trump after all this. That's how far gone into the Trump hole Iowans seem to have gone.
No polls.Hey, what's happening in Georgia? Not only did it not experience the bump that Arizona has had, but Alaska is ahead of it in 538.
No, you have to remember a big chunk of the Democratic voting block wasn't actually around for the 90s, so anything that demotivates or demoralizes them is dangerous. It IS an issue if Hillary's current line is in direct opposition to what she (allegedly) did in the 90s. Supposedly. Maybe. Again, it's all he said-she said I think.
Oh I think she absolutely needs to answer it. But she should focus on the knowns and the facts (Lewinsky, Flowers) and not respond to every piece of innuendo that Donald Trump that he spews, because you cannot allow Trump to dictate the terms of engagement. Everyone heard the tape. Everyone has heard Trump's words, again and again and again. That is more powerful than -- and shouldn't be counter-balanced by -- baseless innuendo.
Also, and this is not a given by any stretch, but after the birther bullshit, it does seem the media has finally realized they can't just keep repeating Trump verbatim and calling it "news" while the fact checking exists only in the fine print. So, in the eleventh hour, I'm not sure that simply saying innuendo over and over again is going to be picked up by the media with the same traction it would have earlier in the cycle -- and if it does, it won't be on Trump's turf anymore.
(of course, I may be giving the geniuses over at CNN far too much credit)
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