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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
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JesseEwiak
Member
Speaking as a Washingtonian, because the same Microsoft Project Managers who live in the suburbs of Seattle and donate to Obama and Hillary also vote for the local Republican legislator who talks about fiscal responsibility and how the local Democrat's want to raise taxes or do what's considered basically Armageddon here in Washington - institute a state income tax.
As far as Massachusetts go, their state government is comically corrupt, so they elect Republican governors as a check on that while still giving the Democrat's 2/3 majorities in both chambers so said Governor can't veto anything too important.
Because this. We occupy like <10% of the land. Even in blue states you have districts that are massively red. Lots of them.
Trump will drop out of the primaries. Trump will drop out of the general. Trump will not show up to the debates. Trump will not win the election.
He stayin
Third term, it has to be done folks, so true.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
Because this. We occupy like <10% of the land. Even in blue states you have districts that are massively red. Lots of them.
Vermont is so weird.
Also interesting to see how moderate the "blue wall" really is.
RastaMentality
Banned
Josh Newman won? Dems have a supermajority in the state legislature now. whooooo.
So, I had some (probably unoriginal) thoughts and thought I'd get some thoughts back.
The Left has always had this sense of moral superiority to be arbitrarily "above" the tactics that the Right tend to use, but if it's to survive and push back against what we're facing now it needs to fight fire with fire. The immediate response tends to be "oh, so the left should pander to racists", but there's nothing that says those tactics must come with bigotry.
Part of the problem is that the Left will too often eat itself on most any issue due to internal grievances. It's why nothing ever gets fucking done, because nobody can agree on what to do next, how to be inclusive, what to do/say when someone fucks up, what have you. It's happening right now with everyone arguing on what to do next, how to combat Trump, who to pander to, etc...Hell, we're still arguing on what to do next and how we're fucking it up already.
You see this with the Green Party, even thinking about voting for Clinton or any other Democrat is sacrileg, and despite their platforms being aligned in goal, have one thing out of line and it's all sell-outs and corrupt capitalist pigs. It's what happened in (yes I'm going there) Nazi Germay with left-wing groups unable to come coalesque against Hitler, it's what happens so many times in history.
Right-wing groups will tolerate strange bedfellows as long as the end goal is close enough to what they want. This allows them to work and utilize the tactics of the fringe group to meet their ends while simultaneously claiming "I can't control what other people do!".
Basically, left-wing groups care about the process to get to the end goal, whereas right-wing groups care about getting to the end goal processes be damned. To be clear, it's absolutely true that all groups, including liberal/left-wing groups, need to be inclusive towards marginalized people. But so often everything stops dead in its tracks as we try to do that. To me, it seems far more effective to argue and course correct while the car is running, not stopping and starting the car at each fork in the road.
I do wonder how strategic voting could help with this. Canada apparently has some groups working towards strategic voting. Basically people in certain counties agree to vote for certain candidates in a way that lets smaller groups have representation while leaving the major party unharmed. I'm unsure how that effective that system would be for the US system, but I'd imagine there's something similar enough to be able to use that system effectively.
The Left has always had this sense of moral superiority to be arbitrarily "above" the tactics that the Right tend to use, but if it's to survive and push back against what we're facing now it needs to fight fire with fire. The immediate response tends to be "oh, so the left should pander to racists", but there's nothing that says those tactics must come with bigotry.
Part of the problem is that the Left will too often eat itself on most any issue due to internal grievances. It's why nothing ever gets fucking done, because nobody can agree on what to do next, how to be inclusive, what to do/say when someone fucks up, what have you. It's happening right now with everyone arguing on what to do next, how to combat Trump, who to pander to, etc...Hell, we're still arguing on what to do next and how we're fucking it up already.
You see this with the Green Party, even thinking about voting for Clinton or any other Democrat is sacrileg, and despite their platforms being aligned in goal, have one thing out of line and it's all sell-outs and corrupt capitalist pigs. It's what happened in (yes I'm going there) Nazi Germay with left-wing groups unable to come coalesque against Hitler, it's what happens so many times in history.
Right-wing groups will tolerate strange bedfellows as long as the end goal is close enough to what they want. This allows them to work and utilize the tactics of the fringe group to meet their ends while simultaneously claiming "I can't control what other people do!".
Basically, left-wing groups care about the process to get to the end goal, whereas right-wing groups care about getting to the end goal processes be damned. To be clear, it's absolutely true that all groups, including liberal/left-wing groups, need to be inclusive towards marginalized people. But so often everything stops dead in its tracks as we try to do that. To me, it seems far more effective to argue and course correct while the car is running, not stopping and starting the car at each fork in the road.
I do wonder how strategic voting could help with this. Canada apparently has some groups working towards strategic voting. Basically people in certain counties agree to vote for certain candidates in a way that lets smaller groups have representation while leaving the major party unharmed. I'm unsure how that effective that system would be for the US system, but I'd imagine there's something similar enough to be able to use that system effectively.
The long term solution is that we move. Millions and millions of us. We could reverse gentrification and have a much more effective stronghold on both local and national politics. But that's not happening.
Second long term solution is we overcome our idealism and decide that the ends justify the means and begin to do to conservative core constituencies what they do to us.
Second long term solution is we overcome our idealism and decide that the ends justify the means and begin to do to conservative core constituencies what they do to us.
TestOfTide
Banned
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So basically everyone is moving the fuck out of the rust belt and moving to either the sun belt or the west coast.
This should further solidify the idea that over time the Dems will need to focus more and more on the Sun Belt and states where College Educated Whites are moving to.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Razor thin margins, I guess. And massive gridlock even if a Dem gets back into the White House.
Because this. We occupy like <10% of the land. Even in blue states you have districts that are massively red. Lots of them.
Better hope the 2020 Census allows for better distribution I guess...
Edit: And yes if we can make inroads into places like GA, NC, TX, then it'll offset the issues in the interior of the US. But I feel like those are long term projects with NC being the most in reach.
Retromelon
Member
I remember after he tweeted something saying the moderators were biased, some posters were saying Trump wouldn't even show up to debate Hillary. He was underestimated again and again and again.
Lol
I agree with this but not in the way you're advocating. We don't need to pander to racists. What we need to do is lock them the fuck up. Find some legal pretense and some precedent for mass incarceration and then do it to them. Start at the local level in every state where democrats own the legislature. You can start with a war on drugs that focuses on heroin and meth addiction and literally give millions of rural voters felonies and prison sentences.
What we do instead is decry Reagan and Nixon and even clinton as being racist, but don't think for once that we should use the same tactics.
Reduce drinking and driving by hiring undercover cops to patrol rural bars and then lock up and slap a felony on anyone who gets in their cars.
The rural voting base break laws every day and their friends just give them a warning or let them go in small towns.
We could take 3-4 million rural voters off the voting lists in 4 years if we instituted this policy in every state we control.
Maybe then we'll start seeing voting reform, can't have disenfranchised (white) people after all.
Bingo.
This pic is endlessly captionable.
Aaron Strife
Banned
If there's a special election we need to compete hard here in 2017 first. Do whatever we can to be a stick in Trump's eye.
Like the map shows, 2020 is likely to follow the trend set by the last several decennial censuses: states in the northeast and midwest are losing seats to states in the west, southwest, and southeast.
Compare 2010:
And 2000:
That's the thing republicans do. Stand your ground laws. Abortion restrictions. Voter suppression tactics. They literally have a boiler plate law that they shove through every state legislature while we slowly and steadily engage in debate and shit.
Fuck that.
Start with a massive war on drugs aimed at rural areas, then disenfranchise rural districts by passing laws that allow for voting places based on population sizes - make conservatives have to drive for hours to find a voting place, institute stop and frisk in rural areas under the pretense that they're more likely to own weapons and thus be a threat to law enforcement.
On down the line.
Literally do every single thing to them that they do to us and then think of a handful of things they don't do, and do those too.
Fuck that.
Start with a massive war on drugs aimed at rural areas, then disenfranchise rural districts by passing laws that allow for voting places based on population sizes - make conservatives have to drive for hours to find a voting place, institute stop and frisk in rural areas under the pretense that they're more likely to own weapons and thus be a threat to law enforcement.
On down the line.
Literally do every single thing to them that they do to us and then think of a handful of things they don't do, and do those too.
shinra-bansho
Member
Tiny states still won't lose their overrepresentative seats regardless of how relatively tiny they are.
Also I wonder if Puerto Rican or DC statehood will ever happen.
California should try to split in two rather than Calexit. Twice the Senators.
Also I wonder if Puerto Rican or DC statehood will ever happen.
California should try to split in two rather than Calexit. Twice the Senators.
TestOfTide
Banned
Because this. We occupy like <10% of the land. Even in blue states you have districts that are massively red. Lots of them.
Wow. Even that 2012 map showed massive potential for turning Arizona Blue.
Fuck it. Dems need to go all in on Arizona, North Carolina and Georgia.
Also, I know everyone is pissed about the whole PV vs EC disconnect, but I don't think the solution would be switching entirely to a PV system. I like the idea of POTUS having to focus on swing states, but perhaps the issue is the 435 cap on house seats. If we instead had, say 750 US house seats, the more populated states would get much better value in the Electoral College, but politicians would still be encouraged to focus on swing states.
I don't want to put Republican voters in jail, but I'm totally for making it way more difficult for them to vote.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Eh, I agree with him. Lock 'em up.
Republicans voted to kill America. We need to kill them first.
So to speak.
If you want any sensible criminal justice reform you put republicans in jail. Millions of them.
It's been their go-to voter suppression tactic since the moment the VRA passed.
What else do you think is motivating Trump's nationwide stop and frisk suggestion besides this very thing?
You either die the hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
TestOfTide
Banned
Better yet, just fuck their hive mind up by having a shitload of liberals infiltrate their right wing news bubble, then start fake right wing news that causes infighting between them.
Basically, target the far right with the same kinds of hyper-normalization that Russia has been targeting other countries with.
You ever hear of the term anti-hero?
Well me and Vahagn are Anti-Deplorables.
Pretty much. I was a massive idealist 8-10 years ago. Now I realize we were functionally and politically dumb in decrying Reagan as racist instead of learning from him and employing his tactics.
http://www.npr.org/sections/alltech...f-a-covert-fake-news-operation-in-the-suburbs
Read this. Hint: that plan backfired.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I went to the county Democratic party meeting that was about brainstorming ideas for the future, but they were kind of vague about what that meant so it ranged from talking about organizing precinct members to making sure people on social media know Paul Ryan wants to privatize social security. There was one incredibly angry woman who said she didn't vote because she hates the two-party system, but then she felt constantly compelled to give loud and angry opinions about ideas people had, including asserting that we need to stop viewing demographics as real things because race/class/age don't matter.
It felt like an episode of Parks and Rec.
It felt like an episode of Parks and Rec.
TestOfTide
Banned
Well you are behind the times if you are focused on the 80s.
Just look at what the far right is doing right now for ideas:
- O'Keefe smear video campaigns
- Special Interests funding SuperPACs to keep their party in line.
- Voter intimidation through poll watching (I mean how hard can that be when these fuckers get scared the moment they see a black guy?)
- Fake News
- Having hackers target opponents
- Internet Mob Justice
Oh and I know about that NPR story. I'm saying that you go further than that. You start off they way those guys did, then you start pitting them against each other by including random far right republicans in the articles.
Then you start having those news sites set up to send malware that can be used to hack into republicans' emails.
And then you have those same websites start sprinkling their websites with the shit they found from hacking republicans.
Trump's about to reinstititute all of Reagan's worst shit. I'm saying we should have learned from Reagan and did this by now. And we should keep doing it. As well as incorporate newer things like rural stop and frisk, population based voting sites etc.
Read that NPR article. It's just one guy but he says he tries that misinformation shit with liberals all the time, it doesn't bite. Liberals go to a magic show and they know it's a magic show. Conservatives go to a magic show and turn it into a religion.
Infiltration makes sense, but you're not going to convince liberals of conspiracy theories like O'Keefe and those idiots do.
The thing that will make trump and the republicans defeatable in midterm or general elections is if they think they can abuse the power they have right now like what harper and the CPC thought after they won a majority in 2011, what the Alberta PC's kinda thought after the 2012 provincial election in Alberta and the stuff they pulled after they won that election.and etc. Voters eventually mobilized enough against these poliitcal parties to kick them out.
TestOfTide
Banned
Oh I'm not saying you convince liberals. I'm saying that you start making Trump supporters scared by having O'Keefe type liberals start sending people to trick Republicans into admitting to crimes, then post the videos online.
The upside to liberals being the ones that still have a firm grasp on reality is that it means you can trick conservatives into attacking each other by making them think their friends are enemies.
And stop thinking like it's too late. It's never too late to start sending some emboldened liberals on missions to take advantage of the GOP lack of grasp on reality.
Aaron Strife
Banned
I think Republicans have a tendency towards this. Bush won reelection in 04 by like 2 points and some tens of thousands of votes in one state (Ohio) and he and the GOP took it as a rubber stamp for privatizing Social Security and passing constitutional amendments left and right.
We'll see if Trump and the modern GOP is similarly punished. Ryan would be wise to realize swing voters went for Trump so he could bring jobs back, not to gut Medicare and abortion rights. But they'd rather listen to their deliberately culled and gerrymandered voting bases.
Alternatively we can send massive amounts of liberals to get punched in the face by angry conservatives and then file battery and assault charges and push to reject plea deals that don't include a felony.
I'm being facetious here, kind of.
In all honesty that seems like it might work. What are some concrete ideas?
TestOfTide
Banned
Nah. That's what they already think is happening. You gotta be more creative.
Think more, sending infiltrators to Trump rallies that won't try to get Trump supporters assaulting them, but assaulting each other.
Getting liberal hackers that send malware to conservatives that will feed into their conspiracy mindset by tricking them into thinking the IRS is tracking them.
Targeting deplorables with classic honeypots that will then be used to destroy their families, which means that their families could be turned into Dem supporters.
Hiring people to stalk alt-right leaders.
How are you going to create infighting among Republicans that help Democrats?
The biggest problem with these mouthbreathers is that although they're incredibly stupid, they're just smart enough to realize that they always, always, ALWAYS have to vote Republican.
The biggest problem with these mouthbreathers is that although they're incredibly stupid, they're just smart enough to realize that they always, always, ALWAYS have to vote Republican.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Well, it'll help when Ryan tries to privatize Medicare and Social Security and there's real and tangible consequences in their lives. My dad's just about to start getting SS, there's no way he wants them fucking with it.
I also think that we need to stop cheering Republicans that aren't complete morons and convince less politically engaged people that the only good Republican is one that just lost his seat.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Oh god, I remember Tom Price. He's the guy that basically came up with the Jeb healthcare plan that only protected you from preexisting condidition discriminations if you were diagnosed as a kid or have insurance when diagnosed. If you get diagnosed as an adult without insurance, you'll be in big trouble.
It does count as a way to tackle the price spiral of preexisting condition protections, but a rather heartless way to do it.
And there also goes any hope that Trump might turn around and decide to keep obamacare.
It does count as a way to tackle the price spiral of preexisting condition protections, but a rather heartless way to do it.
And there also goes any hope that Trump might turn around and decide to keep obamacare.
Democrats don't really need to pull a lot of the stuff the republicans and right wing media have done in the last decade or so to win a future general or midterm election. It's a very bad idea to play dirty to much. They need to be tough on the republicans but not to tough and find someone they can rally aroundf in 2020 that is the next obama, rachel notley or trudeau.
I haven't seen any good signs for midterms other than the assumption that people will want to do something.
Retromelon
Member
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
While it shouldn't be assumed that they're an easy win, history would indicate that the party without the presidency will do well at midterms. It's easier to rile people up when they've been taking L's and don't have to run on their compromised achievements and problems.
Of course, we could fuck this up and never wins seats again but there's reason to hope, assuming we even have free and fair elections by 2018.
I'm not saying there should be signs, calm down. Because there's no signs there's still a lot of work that needs to be done.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Agreeeeeeeed.
The GOP just won in Indiana by attacking Evan Bayh of being a tax and spend liberal. They'll certainly do the same to Manchin, Heitkamp etc. in 2018.
We need to stop throwing a fucking parade for every Republican who's bold enough to stand up and say "Well gee maybe we shouldn't ban ALL Muslims" I don't have fucking time for that. The worst Democrat is always better than the best Republican. Have some courage in your fucking convictions for once, liberal voters. And Hillary did some of this too with praising John McCain who's been consistently shitty for the past 8 years.
We can't talk about checks and balances either. Plenty of people I imagine voted R downticket this election because they thought Hillary had it in the bag and wanted to make sure she couldn't do anything. Well now she definitely can't because she fucking lost and the Republicans now have a trifecta.
Maybe talk about checks and balanced as a way to sell a Dem majority or governors to dumbass Trump voters in 2018, when 2020 rolls around the gloves are still off.
People on some other sites already talking about the gov races coming up in 2018 and writing off MA, MD and IL. Hell no, Hillary won those states by like 20 points and we have like a million candidates. There's never a reason to write off states especially if they vote blue by landslide margins in presidential elections. We need to compete there, Vermont, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New Jersey (2017) - all Hillary states and that's already like seven governorships. Hold MN, CO, PA, CT and VA (2017) for dear life. Then fight hard in Maine (they have instant runoff voting there now!), Florida, Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin - anywhere Hillary even came close. Texas, Georgia, Iowa and Ohio are a tier below but there's no reason we shouldn't fight there either.
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