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[Totakeke]

She's great in terms qualifications but not good enough for shiny.

 

[dramatis]

Hillary being a woman didn't magically make her platform better for women compared to Bernie. She wasn't arguing for paid maternal leave like Sanders was. In fact, fucking Trump ended up doing that. Trump was able to attack Hillary from the left on issues like that and Iraq and the TPP because she's a milquetoast centrist.

Hillary advocated paid family leave, which benefited both male and female parents.

 

[Gruco]

Yup. I don't know what we can do about that except hope that Trump enact a lot of Paul Ryan's agenda and you can portray him as the corrupt billionaire elitist he portrayed Clinton as.

It's very frustrating to read that this isn't about race, or that Clinton lacked enthusiasm. Clinton beat Obama's numbers in FL. Easily. And Trump nearly matched them in PA. A big part of the story is that people wanted their "country back." We all know what this means. The campaign said that's what they wanted. The supporters made it clear that's what they wanted. The voting distribution shows it. Why are people trying to pretend this is not an important part of the election?

 

[thebloo]

The fact that history is already being rewritten before it's even written is a sad thing.

And it will haunt a lot of people in a few years.

 

[metalslimer]

Lednerg rewriting history on why one of the most progressive candidates we've put out lost is interesting. Can't wait for our next candidate to say he doesn't see race.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I never ever suggested give up on minority rights or abortion. We need to be a party of civil rights and labour. Those are the two most important issues and needs to be our constant focus.

I don't see an issue bringing more bluedogs under the umbrella on certain issues because there are certain areas of the country where change of approach on certain parts of the country.

I'm not for conceding a single fucking inch on minority rights. Not anywhere not ever.

Cool

Sorry there's like several different people arguing several different core Democratic issues that ought to be dropped or demphasized... it's hard to keep track on who wants to concede on what.

Fundamentally disagree on softening on abortion... you do that and it's gone.

 

[hipsterpants]

I have not read too much into the '68 - '72 elections however I am under the impression we are currently seeing some parallels here. Young liberals essentially took over the DNC and put forth McGovern (grassroots candidate) who then got absolutely hammered by an incumbent president. Am I understanding this correctly?

If so I think we should tread lightly with 2020.

This is my biggest concern with Bernistas trying to take over the DNC. The magnitude of the result of this election is blinding people to the actual numbers. I do have concerns that Bernie will overreach and too many of supporters will follow his lead no matter what. The Dems need a completely open primary for 2020, no favorites or any of that nonsense.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

It's very frustrating to read that this isn't about race, or that Clinton lacked enthusiasm. Clinton beat Obama's numbers in FL. Easily. And Trump nearly matched them in PA. A big part of the story is that people wanted their "country back." We all know what this means. The campaign said that's what they wanted. The supporters made it clear that's what they wanted. The voting distribution shows it. Why are people trying to pretend this is not an important part of the election?

The exact same thing happened after Brexit. People who were terrified of us making the same mistake were 100% right.

 

[Goodstyle]

Poor Huma.

This one hurts man.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

No, she was not. She didn't appeal to everyone, but that doesn't make her uncharismatic. I thought her strong, funny, and empathetic. Not everyone got that, though.

I agree. People mistake being good at messaging for having charisma. There are many politicians who are extremely affable in person to person conversations, but get slaughtered on the national stage because they don't know how to communicate a message in a way people understand.

Clinton and Ed Miliband are not at all dissimilar in this respect.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

How is it even supposed to be possible to appeal to "WWC" voters anyway, for the people pushing that as a focus? I mean, people don't want to call them racist or whatever. Fine, let's go with that for a moment here. Even if that is the case, these are still people, for whatever reasons that they may have, do not trust the traditional mainstream media. At all. They have no confidence in it whatsoever. If they're getting news, it's from sources like Drudge Report. Or Fox News. Or, especially now that Trump is President, places like Breitbart as well. These places will ALWAYS be biased against our candidates, no matter who they are, no matter what policies they espouse, and will always trout out whatever conspiracy theory nonsense based on the slimmest of threads possible that they can fine. That's what this group accepts as reliable news and trusts if anything and that will only be increasingly the case during the Trump years as these places no doubt grow due to the influence of people like Trump and Bannon.

That being the case, how can we ever possibly reach out to this demographic when the information they consume, and will increasingly consume during these intermediate years, are inherently titled against whoever we run, no matter who they are? How in any way is that a winning strategy? How can we possibly counteract that influence when they flat-out refuse to trust anything else from the beginning? That's a hell of a handicap going after that particular demographic that will only be slipping more and more away from us during the Trump years due to only increased power and influence, and I just can't see how that's done since that will involve someway making them trust sources like the NYT or Washington Post or whatever and that flat-out isn't going to happen and if anything is going to get worse not only because of the influence of people like Bannon but also Trump's own statements on how he wants to restrict the freedom of the press and since we're talking about people who voted Trump this year and support him it'll be the sources that Trump and Bannon will be leading them to and that doesn't bode well for us being able to break that influence.

I just don't get how that's supposed to work out and make any sense at all. It's just a flat-out rejection of the reality and a strategy doomed to failure since they voted for Trump, accepted him, and Trump and his cabinet and followers will just push them farther toward sources like Drudge and Breitbart and Fox News, not less, and there's just not much to be done if that's indeed the case. There's no winning move to get these people, short of becoming a flat-out clone of the Republican party (and even that would probably fail for being seen as too sudden and too transparent). None.

Quoting this because I also feel the same way. However, although I do not have data to back up my assertion, I don't think most Trump supporters got their information through these fringe alt-right media outlets. While the aforementioned post may be a concern, I don't think it's that prevalent, but I welcome data that tells me otherwise (although I hope not).

But I'd really like people to acknowledge this post because alt-right media is bound to get worse and penetrate more. So, yea, how the hell do we counter that?

I have not read too much into the '68 - '72 elections however I am under the impression we are currently seeing some parallels here. Young liberals essentially took over the DNC and put forth McGovern (grassroots candidate) who then got absolutely hammered by an incumbent president. Am I understanding this correctly?

If so I think we should tread lightly with 2020.

And this as well. God damn it now I'm worried again.

Must remain hopeful and wary. Don't want to get blindsided again.

 

[Totakeke]

Cool

Sorry there's like several different people arguing several different core Democratic issues that ought to be dropped or demphasized... it's hard to keep track.

Fundamentally disagree on softening on abortion... you do that and it's gone.

This is simplifying things, but I have to say I'm pretty disappointed on white women as a political group.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The exact same thing happened after Brexit. People who were terrified of us making the same mistake were 100% right.

Yeah... I truly believed the diversity firewall would be enough...

I was wrong

Fuck.

 

[Barzul]

Poor Huma.

This one hurts man.

Broken link

 

[metalslimer]

This is simplifying things, but I have to say I'm pretty disappointed on women as a political group.

I'm disappointed in white women at the very least.

Yeah... I truly believed the diversity firewall would be enough...

I was wrong

Fuck

The sad thing is that it was. The diversity just wasn't spread in the right way. Had this been a referendum on the issues each put forward this would be a completely different scenario.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is simplifying things, but I have to say I'm pretty disappointed on women as a political group.

White women...

Please be more specific.

 

[Cybit]

Softer views on guns and abortion.

Hell, just get people who actually own and use guns on a regular basis to be involved in creating gun legislation would be a major step up. The insanity of the assault weapons ban (you can have one of either a grenade launcher or a bayonet, but not both) turned people off.

As for the "Bernie is responsible" - everyone needs to realize that Clinton will probably end with close to as many votes as Obama 2012. Nate Cohn has been definitively proving that it had nothing to do with low turnout

https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn

Start here

https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/796243185739632640

Then go up

We're currently projecting a turnout above 2012 levels (in terms of total vote, dk turnout rate)

https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/796430816855359488

Trump did better among low income whites than affluent whites (whites by income, national exit poll)

https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/796454218408280072

Turnout was up in Pennsylvania and very healthy in Philadelphia.

https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/796789043040239616

Dems need to grapple with the fact that they lost this election because voters who supported Obama in 2012 voted Trump.

https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/796789450537861120

Turnout can always be better. But turnout in FL/PA was very strong--higher than '12--and Clinton lost because Obama voters flipped.

https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/796844140784971776

I can go on and on with this. It's not the turnout.

https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/796846348045848576

Trump won more voters than Romney in MI, PA, FL, NC, WI, IA, OH, NH. And that's despite Johnson

 

[lednerg]

Bernie was an outsider that went up against a giant and then proceeded to take the minority vote for granted.

Obama went up against the same person 8 years ago and succeeded because he knew he didn't have any space to fuck around. Be real.

Bernie ran with zero corporate funding or name recognition and was still able to come damn close to the most powerful and recognizable Democratic Party figure besides Obama and Bill Clinton. He did so on his platform alone, which resonated like Hillary's never did. He came off as being the guy we thought we elected in 2008, a populist with a vision.

As far as taking minorities for granted goes, well that's the Democratic Party in a nutshell. Bernie was very outspoken on the issues affecting minorities from all sides. Hillary's team got out there on social media and successfully convinced people otherwise.

 

[kirblar]

I have not read too much into the '68 - '72 elections however I am under the impression we are currently seeing some parallels here. Young liberals essentially took over the DNC and put forth McGovern (grassroots candidate) who then got absolutely hammered by an incumbent president. Am I understanding this correctly?

If so I think we should tread lightly with 2020.

You are reading this 100% correctly.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Not suggesting we drop abortion rights as a key platform plank, but why weren't we screaming from the rooftops about how they'd dropped like 30% under Obama. Try to pull in people who are clearly turned off by it by pointing out how contraceptives and social safety nets can reduce them.

 

[Gruco]

Cool

Sorry there's like several different people arguing several different core Democratic issues that ought to be dropped or demphasized... it's hard to keep track on who wants to concede on what.

Fundamentally disagree on softening on abortion... you do that and it's gone.

Reminder. After 2004. We dropped nothing and got Obama.

This was not a wide scale repudiation of democratic priorities. No one should act like it. No one should think it. Not for a second.

 

[Totakeke]

Sorry, white women.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Sorry, white women.

Thanks.

 

[kirblar]

Reminder. After 2004. We dropped nothing and got Obama.

This was not a wide scale repudiation of democratic priorities. No one should act like it. No one should think it. Not for a second.

X.

The platform was not the problem.

 

[Gruco]

Hell, just get people who actually own and use guns on a regular basis to be involved in creating gun legislation would be a major step up. The insanity of the assault weapons ban (you can have one of either a grenade launcher or a bayonet, but not both) turned people off.

As for the "Bernie is responsible" - everyone needs to realize that Clinton will probably end with close to as many votes as Obama 2012. Nate Cohn has been definitively proving that it had nothing to do with low turnout

Your interpretation of these tweets is misleading. Yes, turnout was high. That's not the counterfactual.

I don't want to blame Bernie. I think he is a very important voice in the party right now. But everyone could have done better.

 

[B-Dubs]

Reminder. After 2004. We dropped nothing and got Obama.

This was not a wide scale repudiation of democratic priorities. No one should act like it. No one should think it. Not for a second.

This was about not having the shiny. They had the shiny and we didn't. If we get a shiny next time we win. George Clooney 2020

 

[lednerg]

Lednerg rewriting history on why one of the most progressive candidates we've put out lost is interesting. Can't wait for our next candidate to say he doesn't see race.

Don't read this:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/03/trump-supporters-us-elections

Economic anxiety is really just code for racism. Y'all got it figured out.

Also, Hillary's platform team fought tooth and nail against the progressives that Bernie brought.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Not suggesting we drop abortion rights as a key platform plank, but why weren't we screaming from the rooftops about how they'd dropped like 30% under Obama. Try to pull in people who are clearly turned off by it by pointing out how contraceptives and social safety nets can reduce them.

That's not going to work.

I think the Republican party has a lot of people that only vote for single issues and when they do that that answer is simple... No.

No to any gun regulation.
No to any pro-choice
No to any taxes.

Enough groups who care about that single thing get together and vote Republican. It's so simple for them because they aren't about progress they are about saying no and saying no is easier than saying yes.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Reminder. After 2004. We dropped nothing and got Obama.

This was not a wide scale repudiation of democratic priorities. No one should act like it. No one should think it. Not for a second.

We ran a bunch of blue dogs and got them elected and Democrats were terrified to look like they supported marriage equality until 2012. There absolutely was some post-2004 adjustments.

 

[tedrotheredro]

Not sure about you guys, but I've been very sick since election night:

• Barely sleeping, yet going to bed at 8:00pm.
• Panic attacks two days in a row.
• Existential dread.
• Rationalizing the defeat in every which way.
• Stomach pain, feeling weak.
• Crafting various plans to move out of the city/country.
• Turned off nearly all live TV, social media, etc.

It's been a hell of a ride, but I'm surviving. Send puppies.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Reading more of the OT and getting a general sense of what the Democrats are going to do next, I've come to the following conclusion.

I'm done with the party. You guys can keep your punt on gun control & your WWC outreach belief that socialism will work. My views and stations in life are far different than WWC.

The party of Jeremy Corbyn - United States version.

Second Redemption here we come.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Not suggesting we drop abortion rights as a key platform plank, but why weren't we screaming from the rooftops about how they'd dropped like 30% under Obama. Try to pull in people who are clearly turned off by it by pointing out how contraceptives and social safety nets can reduce them.

I'm not convinced anti-abortion is even an issue for anyone who isn't a white evangelist who wouldn't vote Dem if it was the only party on the ticket.

Evangelists (and people who want to appeal to them) are the only ones I ever hear talk about it.

 

[Gruco]

We ran a bunch of blue dogs and got them elected and Democrats were terrified to look like they supported marriage equality until 2012. There absolutely was some post-2004 adjustments.

That's true. Blue dogs were important, but that's just good strategy. That's what the next steps are about. Strategy, not values.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Bernie ran with zero corporate funding or name recognition and was still able to come damn close to the most powerful and recognizable Democratic Party figure besides Obama and Bill Clinton. He did so on his platform alone, which resonated like Hillary's never did. He came off as being the guy we thought we elected in 2008, a populist with a vision.

As far as taking minorities for granted goes, well that's the Democratic Party in a nutshell. Bernie was very outspoken on the issues affecting minorities from all sides. Hillary's team got out there on social media and successfully convinced people otherwise.

Bernie had to have two BLM supporters interrupting him to finally get him to directly say anything about the movement, and right afterwards I had to listen to his supporters act absolutely livid that those two women dared not to just assume that he was there for them.

 

[whyamihere]

It's very frustrating to read that this isn't about race, or that Clinton lacked enthusiasm. Clinton beat Obama's numbers in FL. Easily. And Trump nearly matched them in PA. A big part of the story is that people wanted their "country back." We all know what this means. The campaign said that's what they wanted. The supporters made it clear that's what they wanted. The voting distribution shows it. Why are people trying to pretend this is not an important part of the election?

I mean, it is about race. I'm trying to co-opt a message that Obama used that was effective against Romney in these areas.

 

[kirblar]

Reading more of the OT and getting a general sense of what the Democrats are going to do next, I've come to the following conclusion.

I'm done with the party. You guys can keep your punt on gun control & your WWC outreach belief that socialism will work. My views and stations in life are far different than WWC.

The party of Jeremy Corbyn - United States version.

Second Redemption here we come.

The fuck?

Bernie. Lost. His white base is not the base of the party.

If you leave, that's one less person to firewall against the economically illiterate.

 

[Totakeke]

Reading more of the OT and getting a general sense of what the Democrats are going to do next, I've come to the following conclusion.

I'm done with the party. You guys can keep your punt on gun control & your WWC outreach belief that socialism will work. My views and stations in life are far different than WWC.

The party of Jeremy Corbyn - United States version.

Second Redemption here we come.

The last thing you should do is base what Democrats are going to do next on NeoGAF.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Bernie had to have two BLM supporters interrupting him to finally get him to directly say anything about the movement, and right afterwards I had to listen to his supporters act absolutely livid that those two women dared not to just assume that he was there for them.

And then I had to hear how Bernie was too weak because he let them speak. And then when he added BLM things to his platform of how he was still too weak.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Bernie had to have two BLM supporters interrupting him to finally get him to directly say anything about the movement, and right afterwards I had to listen to his supporters act absolutely livid that those two women dared not to just assume that he was there for them.

Or when Bernie said that southern Democrats shouldn't matter because they're more conservative.

We all know what a "southern Democrat" is and what that means.

 

[Kid Heart]

I have not read too much into the '68 - '72 elections however I am under the impression we are currently seeing some parallels here. Young liberals essentially took over the DNC and put forth McGovern (grassroots candidate) who then got absolutely hammered by an incumbent president. Am I understanding this correctly?

If so I think we should tread lightly with 2020.

Dead on.

I already made this warning earlier in the thread that while you can rightfully criticize the Clinton campaign's faults don't ignore Bernie's or you risk making the same mistakes we did. If you truly believe Bernie should run in 2020 address his faults now while you have the time. For everyone's sake's.

 

[War Peaceman]

Issues are going to matter far more to the primary voters, as does all the party support she had locked up long before the primary began.

Clinton is extraordinarily uncharismatic. We ignored it because in an ideal world it wouldn't matter, and because a lot of the reasons people don't like her are extremely unfair.

I don't understand what the solution is then?

The democratic primary voters chose Hillary, strongly. Should the DNC apparatus in future decide on the most charismatic? Isn't that what Sanders' supporters railed against? If Sanders was so good, why wasn't he picked yet Obama was?

There aren't many really charismatic politicians. You have to be something of a blank slate - there's a reason Obama had so much projected on him (good and bad). People see what they want in these candidates. Less is more. These can't be manufactured, they appear or don't.

I think people evangelise Sanders' charisma. Hillary just needed a simpler message. Or one at all.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Or his South Carolina outreach telling a leader of NAACP that he should support Sanders because he's for more Welfare.

 

[metalslimer]

I said I didn't want to relitigate the primaries but *sigh* I didnt need Hillary to tell me how Bernie focusing on economics when it came to race didn't appeal to me as much.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I'm not convinced anti-abortion is even an issue for anyone who isn't a white evangelist who wouldn't vote Dem if it was the only party on the ticket.

Evangelists (and people who want to appeal to them) are the only ones I ever hear talk about it.

Anecdotal, but I definitely know hispanic Catholics that are vehemently anti-abortion but would probably be otherwise more pliable. Same with white Catholics but probably less so.

 

[Crocodile]

Reading more of the OT and getting a general sense of what the Democrats are going to do next, I've come to the following conclusion.

I'm done with the party. You guys can keep your punt on gun control & your WWC outreach belief that socialism will work. My views and stations in life are far different than WWC.

The party of Jeremy Corbyn - United States version.

Second Redemption here we come.

You mental health is the top property but we need you to stay to fight the good fight

Or when Bernie said that southern Democrats shouldn't matter because they're more conservative.

We all know what a "southern Democrat" is and what that means.

I'm STILL mad about :/

 

[tmarg]

No, she was not. She didn't appeal to everyone, but that doesn't make her uncharismatic.

I was watching the big rally she had the night before the election. There were celebrities everywhere, concerts, the Obama's were there, the crowd was huge and excited, it was her last chance to make an impact before the ballots were cast in the morning and... she mechanically spouted off memes from the campaign. "Deal me in" , "They go low, we go high". It was absolutely cringe worthy, and I supported her from the beginning. I can only imagine what someone less involved would have thought.

I still voted for her, of course, but she was dragged through the process by her surrogates. Michelle probably gave three speeches that were all better than Hillary's best performance.

 

[thehypocrite]

Sandy Hook.

Smh at you guys. If I could warp back in time a few days and show you guys your posts you would be so angry at yourself. Don't give up the fight on guns. They are a blight.

The biggest victims of gun violence are actually white males by suicide. Now, I don't want to be a horrible person, but consider this.....they tend to not be part of our voting bloc. I agree that the party should do something about it though.

Source: CDC
...

 

[Astaleview]

Why would he stick around?

This was a rather personal blow to him. I don't think he's going to get involved in politics again.

Now, we got Bernie folks in the OT trying to berniesplain away rural racism. We got guys like Michael Moore ascendant again, peddling the, "We need to reach out to racists or racist apologist" crap. People are buying into Michael Moore because he got lucky in his prediction.

After the Trump election, I don't think you will get minorities like me to sit down and work on a political level with racists. We don't trust them. We know for a fact they will ditch us at the first opportunity. We would rather not participate than work with them.

I'm sorry, it's an "us or them" for me.

You are wrong. Adam should of never left. We have to be the change not running away crying then creating the us or them mentality that you yourself fought against.

I am going to be the change I want to be and take part of. I see alot of GAF feels the same. We got this. You can cower if you want we got you too.

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

What if Tammy Duckworth emerges as the queen we need and deserve?

I was hoping this queen bs would have died when Clinton lost....

 

[Oblivion]

I have not read too much into the '68 - '72 elections however I am under the impression we are currently seeing some parallels here. Young liberals essentially took over the DNC and put forth McGovern (grassroots candidate) who then got absolutely hammered by an incumbent president. Am I understanding this correctly?

If so I think we should tread lightly with 2020.

Holy shit...fricken' Nixon won that many sates?? Fuck...thought only Ray-gun was able to sweep an election on that scale.