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[JesseEwiak]

These arguments about Sanders or Clinton aren't worthwhile. They were both very flawed candidates. Sanders couldn't cinch the nomination and Clinton lost the general.

You keep complaining about populism, but what does that word mean to you? If we take a step back, don't we both agree that politicians need to address all forms of inequality and oppression to create a better America?

Populism is offering simple solutions to complicated problems while painting one group as the reason for all the problems. On the Left, it's painting every person who works on Wall Street as an evil bloodsucker who cheered when people's homes were foreclosed while offering up 4 page bills to restrain Wall Street while on the right it's well, Donald Trump.

 

[Valhelm]

Populism is offering simple solutions to complicated problems while painting one group as the reason for all the problems. On the Left, it's painting every person who works on Wall Street as an evil bloodsucker who cheered when people's homes were foreclosed while offering up 4 page bills to restrain Wall Street while on the right it's well, Donald Trump.

We can say that Sanders' rhetoric was overly simplistic, but he was absolutely right about the finance industry. It doesn't matter if some bankers are nice people. Allowing certain individuals to dominate so many millions of others is ethically wrong and really fucking dangerous.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I guess I'm just amazed that Tom Daschle lost by like a point in South Dakota in 2004 while being a single payer advocate and generally pretty left (especially for his time) dude and wondering what kind of politics was happening that that was possible.

 

[Debirudog]

These arguments about Sanders or Clinton aren't worthwhile. They were both very flawed candidates. Sanders couldn't cinch the nomination and Clinton lost the general.

You keep complaining about populism, but what does that word mean to you? If we take a step back, don't we both agree that politicians need to address all forms of inequality and oppression to create a better America?

Clinton was flawed, no doubt about it but populism is bad if it means we're going to simplify issues which is associated with populism.

 

[Debirudog]

I've actually been thinking about the idea of identity politics and political polarization some. PoC here can stop me now if I'm totally missing the mark, and I in no way want to stop advocating for civil rights and racial justice. This isn't about avoiding speaking up about minority rights or putting them at the back of the queue forever.

I wonder if part of the problem of identity politics (and what leads to modern polarization) is that it's formed political party identification into a sort of lifestyle choice, where your chosen party probably says a lot about where you live, what you do, etc. This is kind of touching on what Obama's 2004 DNC speech talks about when he says that there aren't red state or blue state because Americans have common values and culture that we share across the political divide, but he's not really correct in that because, especially since he gave that speech, being in a red or blue area, especially in a post-Big Sort era says a lot about your own lifestyle choices. Republicans talk about urban liberal elites as a pejorative that is dumb but this election was the cities against everyone else.

The best performing Democrat relative to his state's tilt was a guy whose most noteworthy campaign decision was an ad where he did a cool gun trick to show that he wasn't that different from them. Especially given how Republican Missouri is he didn't run as a Blue Dog type, his campaign website talked about supporting BLM, fighting systemic racism and ending police abuse, he ran on environmental issues and the minimum wage and healthcare and in the very ad he showed off his gun skills he talked about wanting background checks. He lost in a big wave election but he came far closer than he should have and I think a big part of it is that he signaled that he was a normal Missourian and understood what their lives were like instead of being some distant wonk.

I'm not sure exactly what drives this, I think it started with Gingrich (or maybe Nixon but I think that's more just pure racism) but I was a toddler for the years I was alive in the 90's so idk a whole lot about that. I definitely think Republicans want to push this because their policies are generally unpopular but I think the nerdy technocrats that the Democrats get to represent them are also a part of it. While I can and will indict anyone who chose to vote for Trump, Hillary only campaigning in cities and flying home every night to sleep in her bed does sort of only distance herself from people who can see that as a gesture that she's better than them.

Please stop me if I'm totally off base here, it's just something I've been thinking about the past couple days.

Kander also gives the impression he's much tougher on republicans though that's more of a read on him than anything.

 

[VendettaRed07]

We can say that Sanders' rhetoric was overly simplistic.

It really wasn't

People are dumb. They don't like long complicated things that confuse them. They don't like it when people say a lot of things about stuff they don't know anything about. That's how we get our unpresidented-elect.

I'd say issue with sanders specifically was I tend to think he really didn't know much beyond the platitudes.. but I support candidates going forward being more straight with what they are about and a message that can be easily digested in a short YouTube clip.

How information is shared is changing like that and I almost think it's sort of a necessity going forward that candidates better adapt to it. It isn't the 90s anymore and long forums where candidates can lay it all out there, hosted by cable tv networks don't win elections.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Kander was running against Roy Blunt, whose family is made up of lobbyists and doesn't actually live in Missouri anymore. Not hard to see why he'd be easy to run against, especially this year.

That he came as close as he did was just as much the person he was running against as anything else. And I say that as someone who has liked Kander a lot since he ran for SoS. Bright future, but people need to stop propping him up as some "Democratic ideal."

 

[studyguy]

Weeds podcast had one reporter out in Kentucky talking to people signing up for ACA and why they voted Trump. Some of the stuff discussed... went from asking questions to the person to the interviewee asking questions as to what happens if Obamacare is repealed and the urgency of the situation (her husband relies on it due to liver failure). Paints a real fucking sad picture of the electorate. I just don't know how one overcomes that.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I guess I'm just amazed that Tom Daschle lost by like a point in South Dakota in 2004 while being a single payer advocate and generally pretty left (especially for his time) dude and wondering what kind of politics was happening that that was possible.

To be fair, Daschle was an incumbent which helps a lot.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Kander was running against Roy Blunt, whose family is made up of lobbyists and doesn't actually live in Missouri anymore. Not hard to see why he'd be easy to run against, especially this year.

That he came as close as he did was just as much the person he was running against as anything else. And I say that as someone who has liked Kander a lot since he ran for SoS. Bright future, but people need to stop propping him up as some "Democratic ideal."

For a democrat to get like a 16 point ticket split in a red state in a Senate election is almost impossible these days.

If we successfully knocked out even half of the Roy Blunt republicans in congress we'd have a super majority in both houses. They are literally all corporate stooges

The far left is wrong that everyone really wants socialism. But what they do support that is actually bipartisan that everyone agrees with is that politicians should actually give a shit about the voters they represent and not a bunch of wealthy donors.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Kander also gives the impression he's much tougher on republicans though that's more of a read on him than anything.

Do you mean like, more critical? Because if so, I'm not really sure I follow. If you mean tougher than them though, that's kind of the point I'm getting at? Part of the genius of the gun ad was showcasing his military service, both in him mentioning his personal heroics and in the actual display of skill with the gun. He's a normal dude who has dedicated his life to public service and wants to keep on helping his country.

His Keepin' It 1600 guest appearance sort of gets into this, where he talks about his attempt to get Republicans to vote for him wasn't triangulation but by showing that even if they don't always agree with him, he's genuinely on their side and I think a big part of that is showing that he understands them and their lives. It's why Ted Cruz had that dumbass bacon gun thing.

I don't want to hold up Kander as the savior of the party since he still lost and my goal isn't to say that we should only run white dudes with military service. I think Obama did this too, when you look at him talking about his Iowa victory where he succeeded not because of demographic destiny but because he got dirty and went to county fairs and fish fries and showed that he and Iowans were all on the same side. It's not just about pandering or whatever, it's about him showing up and being an urban black man in a mostly white and nonurban state that still has the same values and beliefs as them.

To be fair, Daschle was an incumbent which helps a lot.

He had to become an incumbent in the first place tho

 

[Debirudog]

Do you mean like, more critical? Because if so, I'm not really sure I follow. If you mean tougher than them though, that's kind of the point I'm getting at? Part of the genius of the gun ad was showcasing his military service, both in him mentioning his personal heroics and in the actual display of skill with the gun. He's a normal dude who has dedicated his life to public service and wants to keep on helping his country.

His Keepin' It 1600 guest appearance sort of gets into this, where he talks about his attempt to get Republicans to vote for him wasn't triangulation but by showing that even if they don't always agree with him, he's genuinely on their side and I think a big part of that is showing that he understands them and their lives. It's why Ted Cruz had that dumbass bacon gun thing.

I don't want to hold up Kander as the savior of the party since he still lost and my goal isn't to say that we should only run white dudes with military service. I think Obama did this too, when you look at him talking about his Iowa victory where he succeeded not because of demographic destiny but because he got dirty and went to county fairs and fish fries and showed that he and Iowans were all on the same side. It's not just about pandering or whatever, it's about him showing up and being an urban black man in a mostly white and nonurban state that still has the same values and beliefs as them.

Nevermind, I just meant Kander wouldn't play ball or compromise with GOP republican politicians unlike Obama's first few years, is all I'm saying...Judging from his ads and tweets.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Basically all ideologies use race and gender and the other as tools to maintain power.
Socialist paradise America would probably still be racist as fuck.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Basically all ideologies use race and gender and the other as tools to maintain power.
Socialist paradise America would probably still be racist as fuck.

There is a reason why so many far right wing,racist nationalist won elections in European socialist states after the Syrian refugee crisis.

I.e, Free healthcare doesn't make racism go away

 

[sphagnum]

There is a reason why so many far right wing,racist nationalist won elections in European socialist states after the Syrian refugee crisis

*regulatory liberal states

Spoiler

Yes I know there can be racism in socialism, but none of these states are socialist

 

[Pixieking]

Weeds podcast had one reporter out in Kentucky talking to people signing up for ACA and why they voted Trump. Some of the stuff discussed... went from asking questions to the person to the interviewee asking questions as to what happens if Obamacare is repealed and the urgency of the situation (her husband relies on it due to liver failure). Paints a real fucking sad picture of the electorate. I just don't know how one overcomes that.

Over and over again, I say "Education".

Non-profit electoral organisations have to be non-partisan/bi-partisan to keep their non-profit status. This means that rather than saying "What the fuck! Don't vote R, they'll take away the ACA!", they provide info for the electorate so that they can make their own choice, but can't really do or say anything that illustrates how bad the R ticket is. In a perfect world, this would be okay, because everyone would be as invested in politics as Gaf is, and people would learn on their own.

But it isn't a perfect world. So you have non-profit orgs mumbling something about how the GOP will take away ACA, but the GOP use scare tactics, and people are easily swayed by scare tactics. Then, post-election, GOP voters realise that they've been fleeced.

Obvious answer: Bankroll a company - with absolutely no association with the Dems - whose entire existence is devoted to going into rural and low-education areas, and educating people about what the GOP will do if they get into power. Set-up town halls and local meetings with free food and drink, where folk can come in, not be made to feel stupid, and have someone explain it (respectfully). Maybe have split male/female meetings, so the guys don't lose face with their wives, and the women don't feel like shit asking about abortion rights or consent. Ask local church-leaders if you can just take 5 minutes of the congregation's time to just say a few words. Don't mention the Dems, just hammer away at a single point every meeting - the GOP are against raising minimum wage. The GOP are against drug-rehab. The GOP are against abortion. The GOP are against free lunches for your kids in school. The GOP will strip the ACA, and your dad will die because of it. The GOP don't care if you've been sexually assaulted.

Some won't believe how bad the GOP are, and it's debatable how many will vote Dem in the end. But absolutely anything that increases the average voter's awareness and knowledge of politics should be pushed.

I genuinely want to do this. Its long-term value is, I think, really high.

 

[VendettaRed07]

*regulatory liberal states

Spoiler

Yes I know there can be racism in socialism, but none of these states are socialist

I know but just saying neither are our own domestic socialist

Generally the understanding by the left here is that Norway and Sweden or w/e are socialist countries and emulating them is the seeming end game

 

[shinra-bansho]

No true socialism.
It would be interesting to see a more explicitly anti-capitalist / actual socialist of the more revolutionary bent run.

Spoiler

Just to see how badly they'd fare.

Generally the understanding by the left here* is that Norway and Sweden or w/e are socialist countries and emulating them is the seeming end game

* You mean by yuroppl who think themselves socialist paradises.

I don't think that's spaghnums endgame.

He wants to take my house and give it to the poors.

 

[Debirudog]

I know but just saying neither are our own domestic socialist

Generally the understanding by the left here is that Norway and Sweden or w/e are socialist countries and emulating them is the seeming end game

They ended up that way very slowly and incrementally.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I didn't know that Gomie won an election, cool.

https://www.abqjournal.com/913758/l...ocial&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1482359166

Can John Cena run for Florida Senate in 2022?

 

[Pixieking]

There is a reason why so many far right wing,racist nationalist won elections in European socialist states after the Syrian refugee crisis.

I.e, Free healthcare doesn't make racism go away

In some cases, free health care seems to make people more racist. In the UK, you very often can't move for right-wing articles about how immigrants are coming to the UK for our free health-care. Never mind that the number of non-UK citizens using the health service is a fraction of the total - those dirty foreigners are coming to use our free health care!

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I didn't know that Gomie won an election, cool.

https://www.abqjournal.com/913758/l...ocial&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1482359166

Can John Cena run for Florida Senate in 2022?

You'll get Crist losing again after his 2018 bid and you'll like it.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

It's weird how the Dems are the party of celebrities, but Reagan and Trump are the only celebrity presidents and the only Dem celebrities I could see running for federal office would be LeBron and Cena.

Like... who else is there? Clooney doesn't live primarily in America anymore, right?

 

[pigeon]

Because marginalized peoples disproportionately suffer in class society, a reduction of inequality would benefit marginalized peoples disproportionately.

That doesn't follow, and since you're quoting TNC you should already understand why.

America has instituted multiple economic justice programs over the years. They've all been designed explicitly and sometimes openly to exclude people of color from their benefits. As we previously discussed, people in America explicitly oppose economic justice BECAUSE they're afraid it would create more social justice. An economic justice plan that would be acceptable to them would have to preserve social injustice. This represents little benefit.

It's not sufficient to consider economic justice. It's not even sufficient to consider economic and social justice together. Economic justice has to be considered with the specific goal of making sure it's socially just for the resulting programs to do anything about racially linked poverty. This is not a low bar! It's actually quite difficult.

Economics is intrinsically tied to white supremacy and misogyny. You're 100% correct that a "purely economic" approach toward liberation is incomplete, but the "purely social" approach isn't better.

Nobody has ever argued for this. Literally ever as far as I can tell. I can actually produce people who've argued that if we just add socialism racism will magically go away. You can't find any examples of people saying that racism is all that matters and poverty is irrelevant. There just aren't any.

I don't understand why you're having an extensive and passionate argument with somebody who doesn't exist.

The imaginary conflict between economic justice and racial justice is a liberal myth that prevents either from being achieved.

Here's a fun idea: maybe instead of consistently reifying the very division you claim you're trying to close by blaming the people on the other side of the division for creating it, act like an adult and demonstrate by example what a unified perspective would look like, and convince people rather than trying to dominate them with the force of your narrative.

You know, contribute something.

 

[pigeon]

In some cases, free health care seems to make people more racist. In the UK, you very often can't move for right-wing articles about how immigrants are coming to the UK for our free health-care. Never mind that the number of non-UK citizens using the health service is a fraction of the total - those dirty foreigners are coming to use our free health care!

That's because the most successful socialist model so far is social democratic ethnonationalism.

Which doesn't really speak well to the argument being made here!

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Hmm, Aaron Rodgers could do pretty well if he wanted to run for office I suppose and I think he's a Dem.

But I think Peyton Manning will have a successful Republican political career too.

 

[Diablos]

If your life depends on Obamacare and you voted for the guy who wants to take it away... you're so incredibly fucking stupid and basically committing suicide. What the hell is wrong with this country??

Trump wants to put a 5% tariff on all imports by executive order.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/21/politics/donald-trump-tariffs/index.html

Note: This would murder Iowa as Iowa exports all of the shit they make and imports everything they consume.

Note 2: Iowa swung to the GOP by 20 points (most of any state).

Suckers.

Fuck. FUCK. He's going to start another recession via executive action. The courts can stop him I hope.

I wish Obama had more fight in him too but the truth of the matter is I think he's just tired. He had a long and contentious 8 years and for his Presidency to end like this is just an absolute nightmare. He's powerless to stop Trump.

 

[Aaron Strife]

If your life depends on Obamacare and you voted for the guy who wants to take it away... you're so incredibly fucking stupid and basically committing suicide. What the hell is wrong with this country??

Combination of two things:

1) Too many people prioritize personality over policy when making up their mind. I like and respect Hillary, but her persona (rightly or wrongly - mostly wrongly) rubbed too many people in critical voting blocs the wrong way. See the people who proudly voted for Obama twice, would for a third time, and didn't cast their ballot because they thought Hillary was "scary" (give me a fucking break) or corrupt or whatever. It's why you had people on this very forum proclaim they'd gladly vote for Bernie Sanders (a much more liberal Democrat) or Joe Biden (a much more conservative Democrat) while explicitly ruling out Hillary.

I don't want to take away from Obama's success or achievements here but let's be honest, he has a personality cult. Clinton (as well as Kerry and Gore in past elections) demonstrated when a Dem candidate doesn't have that going for them, the floor is still very high - but the intricacies of the EC can make that worth all of jack shit.

2) When people are angry they don't think straight. Trump made an emotional appeal to the anger that coal workers, factory workers etc in the Rust Belt were feeling, even though anyone with enough brains and patience to look through each candidate's plans would likely come to the conclusion that Trump's platform is worse for the lower working class in virtually every way. No president is going to turn around the automation or globalization that has evaporated those jobs, and if anything Trump slapping tariffs on imports is going to speed that process up even further. Clinton and the Democrats generally take the approach of "these jobs aren't coming back, but we can get people retrained or reeducated so they don't get left behind" and that's never going to sound as good as Free Cake.

I could be wrong - I certainly was for the election - but I think there is going to be a huge (yuge) feeling of buyer's remorse post-election. Like, give it a year. Trump will always have the culture warrior morons on his side as long as he talks tough about those immeygants and Moozlims, but a significant part of his coalition were made up of people who voted for him somewhat reluctantly. He has little room to fuck up and still enjoy a successful presidency, and his main prerogative seems to be exclusively to fuck up.

 

[Wilsongt]

I'm sorry, after NC, Democrats just need to take their Jupiter sized L and move along and try something new. Being bleeding hearts and trying to help people isn't working.

 

[Rebel Leader]

If your life depends on Obamacare and you voted for the guy who wants to take it away... you're so incredibly fucking stupid and basically committing suicide. What the hell is wrong with this country??


Fuck. FUCK. He's going to start another recession via executive action. The courts can stop him I hope.

I wish Obama had more fight in him too but the truth of the matter is I think he's just tired. He had a long and contentious 8 years and for his Presidency to end like this is just an absolute nightmare. He's powerless to stop Trump.

Just e-mail and call your republican senators that trump is raising taxes because that's what tariffs are. Taxes.

 

[teruterubozu]

I'm sorry, after NC, Democrats just need to take their Jupiter sized L and move along and try something new. Being bleeding hearts and trying to help people isn't working.

Dems need to become bleeding hearts again if anything, not the detached bubble it has become. In fact, the Obama years turned conservatives into bleeding hearts, whining about persecuted Christians and PC culture.

 

[Holmes]

You'll get Crist losing again after his 2018 bid and you'll like it.

Well he's a congressman now in a district pretty much tailor made for him so I doubt he runs.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I didn't know that Gomie won an election, cool.

https://www.abqjournal.com/913758/l...ocial&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1482359166

Can John Cena run for Florida Senate in 2022?

I'd support Cena. Dude's a real deal good guy and seems pretty smart and savvy.

 

[Wilsongt]

So McCrory and his ilk are blaming Democrats for HB2 failing to be repealed.

In a fiery note on Facebook, he lashed out at Senate Democrats and Governor-elect Roy Cooper (D), accusing them of “hypocrisy” for refusing to vote for repeal of HB2 now that Charlotte had rescinded its ordinance “that forces men into women’s bathrooms and changing facilities.” He claimed they voted down a clean repeal, but that bill was still going to be followed by one that instituted a moratorium on municipal protections, so it was never actually clean. This is obvious in his many statements still insisting that transgender people must be prohibited from bathrooms that correspond with their gender identity

“They aren’t interested in moving past this issue or protecting the privacy and safety of North Carolina families,” he wrote. “They’re brass-knuckled politicians who want to wage a nasty culture war with divisive issues, so they can keep filling their campaign coffers with case from fringe liberal activists.”
“We long suspected they’re the worst kind of politicians. Today, they proved it.”.

That is from the Senate leader.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

“We long suspected they’re the worst kind of politicians. Today, they proved it.”.

lol

That's rich coming from the NC GOP

 

[TestOfTide]

One reporter at the Washington Post finally cracks under the existential crisis of journalism.

This attitude misses the whole point. If they still like Obama, then they are not out of reach of the Democrats

And no, it doesn't require abandoning identity politics either.

 

[sphagnum]

* You mean by yuroppl who think themselves socialist paradises.

I don't think that's spaghnums endgame.

He wants to take my house and give it to the poors.

Don't be silly. You're not Kev.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Dems need to become bleeding hearts again if anything, not the detached bubble it has become. In fact, the Obama years turned conservatives into bleeding hearts, whining about persecuted Christians and PC culture.

However, all of those ideals were thrown out with Trump proving that none of it really mattered that much to them anyway.

 

[Tall4Life]

If it'll take celebrities to move into politics to revitalize the Democrat party, hell yes I'll vote for them. I'll vote for Cuban and fucking Cena.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

John Felix Anthony Cena Jr, 46th President of the United states has a nice ring to it

He even comes with a theme song!

 

[excelsiorlef]

John Cena went on Fox News to make fun of Obama for using a teleprompter.

Specfically he went on Hannity

He's not some liberal savior

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I'm not even sure he's even a Democrat lol

Just kind of a silly thing to think about while the world burns

 

[Wilsongt]

If it'll take celebrities to move into politics to revitalize the Democrat party, hell yes I'll vote for them. I'll vote for Cuban and fucking Cena.

We just need better liberal saviors than Clay Aiken.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Alec Baldwin 2020

 

[Randolph Freelander]

Someone get Colin Mochrie an American birth certificate.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Alec Baldwin 2020

Only if he runs in character.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Denzel 2020

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Only if he runs in character.

Nah, he runs normal, but continues to play Trump on SNL.

And then they do a debate skit where Baldwin plays Trump debating someone else playing Baldwin.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Nah, he runs normal, but continues to play Trump on SNL.

And then they do a debate skit where Baldwin plays Trump debating someone else playing Baldwin.

Look, just picture it for a minute.

It's September. They're walking out for the first debate. First comes Trump, looking appropriately Trumpian. He descends on a wire setup because that's what presidents do now, apparently.

From the opposite side of the stage comes Baldwin, dressed as Trump. Orange makeup and everything.

Actual Trump vs. Trump impersonator debate on live television.

It would be glorious.

 

[Wilsongt]

Trump wants Obama to veto the UN resolution forcing Israel stop stop encroaching on Palestinian lands and instead leave it up to Israel and Palestine to decide.

As if that would happen.

Trump posted this on Facebook and you have the usual echo chamber of the US leaving the UN, kicking the UN out, etc.

We really need to ramp up our history lessons in school on the purpose of NATO and the UN for the future generations. Current Trump suporters are a lost cause in terms of learning anything, or believing anything taught in school.