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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
- Start date
- Status
Hillary Clinton
Banned
whyamihere
Banned
Fuck Janice.
I've never liked Janice.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Trump starting a trade war that causes inflation in the hope of improving employment is so very odd considering that almost all of his voters are either retired or about to become retired.
Excuse me, but REBELLIONS ARE BUILT ON HOPE.
whyamihere
Banned
This is silly because everyone knows Tiffany Trump is our Luke Skywalker and she's going to lead the Rebellion to victory.
ShironRedshift
Member
Well, that Super Mario Run thread on Gaming side was... illuminating. Apparently the reason Trump won was because... some people feel that "damsels in distress" is a sexist trope that we should be seeing less of in the gaming industry and encouraging other approaches and they should just... shut up about that and keep those opinions to themselves or else we're doomed to have another four years of Trump because people are trying to have discussions on what they feel is and isn't sexist? And that this apparently isn't a rare refrain and there were a surprisingly large number of people chiming in just to say "this is why Trump won" (granted, a number of them are probably alts but even counting that...)?
*Sigh.* I can literally feel the Overton window shifting to the right, when stuff like the "damsel in distress" trope that has been talked about for years before Trump was relevant, with series like Mario and Zelda being case-in-point examples, are nonetheless somehow treated as some new thing and how Trump apparently won... *Sigh.*
And since that thread was locked (and rightly so, because even beyond that, the thread in question somehow got... even weirder with someone slamming the NYT and insisting that the alt-right aren't neo-nazis derailing the thread) I just need to rant about something else for a bit here, so please bear with me and thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this. Just really need to get something out of my system that occurred to me while reading the thread.
There seems to be a common-place opinion in the thread that even if the damsel in distress trope is wrong, we're nonetheless talking about Mario Bros games and since that's just how the Mario Bros games are and have been for decades, it's just how it is and no big deal regardless and just is what it is, just a part of what makes Mario "Mario" for better or worse.
But then, using the same logic, what about the other stuff that are common complaints about the series? That is to say, stuff like the "Bah Bah"s and the reused music and reused NSMB aesthetics. People have been complaining about that stuff for years now, and rightly so cause it is all kind of old and done and it would naturally be nice to have something new and fresh and see some hot new takes on what can be done with those aspects of the series.
But the whole refrain to defend Peach constantly being kidnapped and the use of the damsel in distress trope is that we shouldn't have new ideas and that that's simply a part of what makes Mario "Mario." But if that's the case, then the "Bah Bahs" and the music and the aesthetics have been with us since NSMB released on the Nintendo DS back in 2006. That is, they've been part of the series for just over a decade now and since they have survived and persisted just fine despite the complaints they could just as easily be said to be part of what makes Mario "Mario." Therefore, if people can't complain about the use of the damsel in distress trope with Peach because that's an inherent part of the series or whatever, then surely the same must be said about the music and aesthetics as well at this point? That people just need to "get over it" just like they do with Peach being a damsel because that just is how it is, for better or worse and people just need to find or make their own games if they don't like it?
Of course, one can shift to talking about how the series didn't always have one aesthetic, while the series has had Peach as a damsel from the beginning, so one is part of the core of the series and one isn't. But yet, just like the aesthetic used to change more often, at the start of the series Peach's role was more in flux as well. I mean, she was a playable character in SMB2, the same as any other. So if one wants to appeal to the series roots, and how Nintendo used to mix things up more often with the aesthetics and that's why that's a valid change, because of stuff like SMB2 USA one has to contend the same applies there. And if one tries to pivot from there to how whether a Peach is a damsel or not isn't literally killing anyone or anything, so whatever, well, whether the games have Bah Bahs or the same music or the same aesthetics and themes or not also isn't literally killing anyone and could just as well be used to shut down any discussion of ways in which people feel the series can be improved (since that is in fact what it's about at the end of day--people discussing ways in which they feel that the series can be improved and made to be even more than what it is. People might disagree about what those ways are, but it's nonetheless what's at the core of the discussion, so that isn't a very fruitful or beneficial approach for anyone.
So that being the case, why is it that complaints about one thing the series has been doing for just over a decade that haven't seemed to impact the series success at all and that Nintendo seems very likely to continue doing because of that regardless of any complaints are nonetheless deemed valid and are something that most fans agree on for one reason or another, but yet complaining about a certain other aspect of the series is treated as taboo or off-limits using the circular logic that that's just how it's always been, and thus how it always must be, take it or leave it, or else you're erasing history or something?
Of course, that's a rhetorical question. It's because because one inherently involves identity and gender politics which many wish they could ignore (which they could easily do by just not clicking on such threads if that truly was their wish, and voila, wish granted, but alas...) and the other doesn't and so they naturally try to shut down discussion of one and not the other.
It's just... rather alarming that the amount of people determined to completely derail or shut-down such discussions is as large as it appears to be, even on a site like NeoGAF, despite the best efforts of the moderation staff (and of course, to be clear here, I'm not saying that people need to agree with the premises of the article the thread was about. It's fine to have differing opinions. But the sheer amount of derision, and attempts not to have a discussion, but to entirely shut-down the discussion altogether or otherwise completely derail it? Those are a different matter entirely and am what I'm referring to here).
I mean, I've followed GamerGate stuff for a while and knew that stuff was no joke and needed to be taken seriously and was always saddened by those who felt that stuff wasn't a big deal because even then I knew they were wrong and that even if those people were small in number that didn't make their views or actions any less dangerous. But even so, even despite having followed that stuff for a while now, I'm still shocked at the sheer extent of how pervasive this stuff is, with naturally the results of this election being the biggest wake-up-call of all.
Like, I said, I knew it was common... But even so, I still underestimated the sheer amount of people who seem completely opposed to anything involving or resembling whatever they deem to be identity politics or political correctness. Of course, even if the nonsensical premise that "this is the stuff that made Donald Trump win" is correct (the reasons he won are multi-faceted and can't be narrowed down to any one factor) that's by no means any reason to abandon such beliefs. On the contrary, it's the reason why we have to double down and protect and fight for what we believe in to make sure it's not lost because if we just let it go ourselves, what do we have to hang on to? But I just fear that no matter how badly Trump messes things up, victory will not come as easily in 2018 and 2020 as some may thing. I desperately, desperately hope I'm wrong but when simple topics like that one generated the sheer amount of vitriol and dismissive replies and the shocking amount of people who seem agreed that that is the type of thing that let Trump win I just can't help shaking the feeling that things are going to get a whole ton worse before they get better.
If anyone actually read all the way through this, I sincerely thank you for being crazy enough to bear with all of that. xD Like I said, this was just kind of a rant of some stuff I needed to get off my shoulders after reading that thread and since that thread itself was locked, I didn't really know where else to put this, so you guys are the lucky winners who get to read my ramblings I guess. xD But seriously, thank you all and wish you all the best (even those of you who disagree with me. You too!) and hope that we all manage to find a way through all of this craziness together! ^__^
*Sigh.* I can literally feel the Overton window shifting to the right, when stuff like the "damsel in distress" trope that has been talked about for years before Trump was relevant, with series like Mario and Zelda being case-in-point examples, are nonetheless somehow treated as some new thing and how Trump apparently won... *Sigh.*
And since that thread was locked (and rightly so, because even beyond that, the thread in question somehow got... even weirder with someone slamming the NYT and insisting that the alt-right aren't neo-nazis derailing the thread) I just need to rant about something else for a bit here, so please bear with me and thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this. Just really need to get something out of my system that occurred to me while reading the thread.
There seems to be a common-place opinion in the thread that even if the damsel in distress trope is wrong, we're nonetheless talking about Mario Bros games and since that's just how the Mario Bros games are and have been for decades, it's just how it is and no big deal regardless and just is what it is, just a part of what makes Mario "Mario" for better or worse.
But then, using the same logic, what about the other stuff that are common complaints about the series? That is to say, stuff like the "Bah Bah"s and the reused music and reused NSMB aesthetics. People have been complaining about that stuff for years now, and rightly so cause it is all kind of old and done and it would naturally be nice to have something new and fresh and see some hot new takes on what can be done with those aspects of the series.
But the whole refrain to defend Peach constantly being kidnapped and the use of the damsel in distress trope is that we shouldn't have new ideas and that that's simply a part of what makes Mario "Mario." But if that's the case, then the "Bah Bahs" and the music and the aesthetics have been with us since NSMB released on the Nintendo DS back in 2006. That is, they've been part of the series for just over a decade now and since they have survived and persisted just fine despite the complaints they could just as easily be said to be part of what makes Mario "Mario." Therefore, if people can't complain about the use of the damsel in distress trope with Peach because that's an inherent part of the series or whatever, then surely the same must be said about the music and aesthetics as well at this point? That people just need to "get over it" just like they do with Peach being a damsel because that just is how it is, for better or worse and people just need to find or make their own games if they don't like it?
Of course, one can shift to talking about how the series didn't always have one aesthetic, while the series has had Peach as a damsel from the beginning, so one is part of the core of the series and one isn't. But yet, just like the aesthetic used to change more often, at the start of the series Peach's role was more in flux as well. I mean, she was a playable character in SMB2, the same as any other. So if one wants to appeal to the series roots, and how Nintendo used to mix things up more often with the aesthetics and that's why that's a valid change, because of stuff like SMB2 USA one has to contend the same applies there. And if one tries to pivot from there to how whether a Peach is a damsel or not isn't literally killing anyone or anything, so whatever, well, whether the games have Bah Bahs or the same music or the same aesthetics and themes or not also isn't literally killing anyone and could just as well be used to shut down any discussion of ways in which people feel the series can be improved (since that is in fact what it's about at the end of day--people discussing ways in which they feel that the series can be improved and made to be even more than what it is. People might disagree about what those ways are, but it's nonetheless what's at the core of the discussion, so that isn't a very fruitful or beneficial approach for anyone.
So that being the case, why is it that complaints about one thing the series has been doing for just over a decade that haven't seemed to impact the series success at all and that Nintendo seems very likely to continue doing because of that regardless of any complaints are nonetheless deemed valid and are something that most fans agree on for one reason or another, but yet complaining about a certain other aspect of the series is treated as taboo or off-limits using the circular logic that that's just how it's always been, and thus how it always must be, take it or leave it, or else you're erasing history or something?
Of course, that's a rhetorical question. It's because because one inherently involves identity and gender politics which many wish they could ignore (which they could easily do by just not clicking on such threads if that truly was their wish, and voila, wish granted, but alas...) and the other doesn't and so they naturally try to shut down discussion of one and not the other.
It's just... rather alarming that the amount of people determined to completely derail or shut-down such discussions is as large as it appears to be, even on a site like NeoGAF, despite the best efforts of the moderation staff (and of course, to be clear here, I'm not saying that people need to agree with the premises of the article the thread was about. It's fine to have differing opinions. But the sheer amount of derision, and attempts not to have a discussion, but to entirely shut-down the discussion altogether or otherwise completely derail it? Those are a different matter entirely and am what I'm referring to here).
I mean, I've followed GamerGate stuff for a while and knew that stuff was no joke and needed to be taken seriously and was always saddened by those who felt that stuff wasn't a big deal because even then I knew they were wrong and that even if those people were small in number that didn't make their views or actions any less dangerous. But even so, even despite having followed that stuff for a while now, I'm still shocked at the sheer extent of how pervasive this stuff is, with naturally the results of this election being the biggest wake-up-call of all.
Like, I said, I knew it was common... But even so, I still underestimated the sheer amount of people who seem completely opposed to anything involving or resembling whatever they deem to be identity politics or political correctness. Of course, even if the nonsensical premise that "this is the stuff that made Donald Trump win" is correct (the reasons he won are multi-faceted and can't be narrowed down to any one factor) that's by no means any reason to abandon such beliefs. On the contrary, it's the reason why we have to double down and protect and fight for what we believe in to make sure it's not lost because if we just let it go ourselves, what do we have to hang on to? But I just fear that no matter how badly Trump messes things up, victory will not come as easily in 2018 and 2020 as some may thing. I desperately, desperately hope I'm wrong but when simple topics like that one generated the sheer amount of vitriol and dismissive replies and the shocking amount of people who seem agreed that that is the type of thing that let Trump win I just can't help shaking the feeling that things are going to get a whole ton worse before they get better.
If anyone actually read all the way through this, I sincerely thank you for being crazy enough to bear with all of that. xD Like I said, this was just kind of a rant of some stuff I needed to get off my shoulders after reading that thread and since that thread itself was locked, I didn't really know where else to put this, so you guys are the lucky winners who get to read my ramblings I guess. xD But seriously, thank you all and wish you all the best (even those of you who disagree with me. You too!) and hope that we all manage to find a way through all of this craziness together! ^__^
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I like how video game criticism from left leaning tech websites are the reason that Trump won.
How many 70 year old, white, retired union workers are reading video game criticism from left leaning tech websites.
How many 70 year old, white, retired union workers are reading video game criticism from left leaning tech websites.
RE: the earlier identity politics discussion. I have some thoughts on this, more just musings than answers.
I learned this election that white people really don't give a shit about black people (or brown people for that matter). I'm white, grew up in the super white PNW, so although maybe I intellectually knew this, and knew that racism is alive and well, I didn't fully understand and internalize the depths of white apathy. Doesn't help that I'm in the bleeding-heart liberal bubble of Seattle, where only 8% went for Trump. Highlighting the plight of minorities is more likely to alienate white people than inspire them.
We can't win national elections without white people. More importantly, we can't win regional elections without white people. The midterms are soon. We need to have a 50 state strategy today to start winning those governorships and house seats.
I voted for Hillary in both the primary and general, but I do see Bernie's economic populism as the way forward in the near term. Trump is playing right into this with his billionaire cabinet.
Long-term, the Republicans doubling down on the southern strategy will be untenable. Not because of any starry-eyed long arm of history stuff, but just because old, stupid, angry white people are dying faster than they are being replaced, and solidly liberal states are growing rapidly. We can't wait until 2020 or 2024 though, we need a plan for today.
I'm (obviously) not a political strategist and am not strongly asserting that I'm correct, but this is just the way I see it. It's awesome that we're having a vibrant discussion on the future of the party. Makes things seem slightly less hopeless.
I learned this election that white people really don't give a shit about black people (or brown people for that matter). I'm white, grew up in the super white PNW, so although maybe I intellectually knew this, and knew that racism is alive and well, I didn't fully understand and internalize the depths of white apathy. Doesn't help that I'm in the bleeding-heart liberal bubble of Seattle, where only 8% went for Trump. Highlighting the plight of minorities is more likely to alienate white people than inspire them.
We can't win national elections without white people. More importantly, we can't win regional elections without white people. The midterms are soon. We need to have a 50 state strategy today to start winning those governorships and house seats.
I voted for Hillary in both the primary and general, but I do see Bernie's economic populism as the way forward in the near term. Trump is playing right into this with his billionaire cabinet.
Long-term, the Republicans doubling down on the southern strategy will be untenable. Not because of any starry-eyed long arm of history stuff, but just because old, stupid, angry white people are dying faster than they are being replaced, and solidly liberal states are growing rapidly. We can't wait until 2020 or 2024 though, we need a plan for today.
I'm (obviously) not a political strategist and am not strongly asserting that I'm correct, but this is just the way I see it. It's awesome that we're having a vibrant discussion on the future of the party. Makes things seem slightly less hopeless.
Dominican Power
Member
Jack Kingston is so full of shit. A prime example why Democrats should not compromise with these Republican shit heads.
You have to talk about minority issues because it's the right thing to do for humanity. Now, if white people wanna say, "what about us?" then ok, but if they're gonna feel alienated and insecure because the democrat party highlights these issues then they're a bunch of big babies.
As soon as we'd start winning multiple elections WITHOUT "identity politics" they'd just go out the window entirely and the best we could hope for is Bill Clintonism on that front.
FloydtheFathead
Member
Does Janice need a hug?
She doesn't give a fuck.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Hillary Clinton
Banned
I'm just going to leave this Keith Ellison quote here and propose that we have a moratorium on all the useless bickering about "identity politics" aka minority issues:
This conversation has gone in so many circles it is amazing to me that people still have the energy to engage with it at all. That includes primary relitigation (which undermines the coalition), definitional bikeshedding, and the rhetorical firestarting that royalan and others seem interested in. If you have so much pent up frustration about the election that you have to lash out at people who also voted for Hillary then it would be much better spent on taking up rec basketball, or pranking Kris Kobach by booking mariachi performances in his name at his address.
This conversation has gone in so many circles it is amazing to me that people still have the energy to engage with it at all. That includes primary relitigation (which undermines the coalition), definitional bikeshedding, and the rhetorical firestarting that royalan and others seem interested in. If you have so much pent up frustration about the election that you have to lash out at people who also voted for Hillary then it would be much better spent on taking up rec basketball, or pranking Kris Kobach by booking mariachi performances in his name at his address.
The Chosen One
Member
Last night I did a re-watch of Thirteen Days and the Cuban Missile Crisis.
It was already frightening just thinking about if Donald Trump and his team were in the shoes of JFK and his inner circle. I don't think people, especially the younger generations, realize just how close we came to a nuclear World War III. There were people on both sides (USSR and the US) that were antsy for a conflict. In particular, the US generals kept pushing for airstrikes in Cuba that would have lead to all out war and possibly a nuclear winter.
So it was even more ironic (and horrific) when I woke up this morning to Trump indicating that he wanted to restart the nuclear arms race with Russia...!
The Cuban Missile Crisis should be required reading for any registered voter in America. I know it's become cliche to say, "We're electing someone with nuclear codes at their fingertips". While yes that's true, it's not that we have to worry about a President just launching nukes on a whim. What we have to worry about is if there is a flashpoint with a nuclear power where things can escalate very quickly. Can the President keep a cool head and evaluate all options, and not easily get pushed into a corner. What worries me is that Trump has surrounded himself with generals and Trump doesn't seem to have a well developed worldview of his own, so when push comes to shove, his advisors will be running the show. When it comes to flash-points, you do need a singular commander in chief who can not just make critical decisions but ask the critical questions because things can go wrong very fast.
It was already frightening just thinking about if Donald Trump and his team were in the shoes of JFK and his inner circle. I don't think people, especially the younger generations, realize just how close we came to a nuclear World War III. There were people on both sides (USSR and the US) that were antsy for a conflict. In particular, the US generals kept pushing for airstrikes in Cuba that would have lead to all out war and possibly a nuclear winter.
So it was even more ironic (and horrific) when I woke up this morning to Trump indicating that he wanted to restart the nuclear arms race with Russia...!
The Cuban Missile Crisis should be required reading for any registered voter in America. I know it's become cliche to say, "We're electing someone with nuclear codes at their fingertips". While yes that's true, it's not that we have to worry about a President just launching nukes on a whim. What we have to worry about is if there is a flashpoint with a nuclear power where things can escalate very quickly. Can the President keep a cool head and evaluate all options, and not easily get pushed into a corner. What worries me is that Trump has surrounded himself with generals and Trump doesn't seem to have a well developed worldview of his own, so when push comes to shove, his advisors will be running the show. When it comes to flash-points, you do need a singular commander in chief who can not just make critical decisions but ask the critical questions because things can go wrong very fast.
whyamihere
Banned
I am a gay man and I've never met anyone as petty as Donald Trump.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I mean, the Cuban Missile Crisis was partially about JFK running on the lie that the Soviets were about to kill us at all and then JFK acting super hawkish by putting nukes in Turkey and then trying to take the most hawkish approach to deal with nukes in Cuba.
It was a bunch of escalating, dick measuring politics.
This seems like something Trump would be good at until he went one escalation more than JFK and actually launched the nukes.
It was a bunch of escalating, dick measuring politics.
This seems like something Trump would be good at until he went one escalation more than JFK and actually launched the nukes.
radios shipping overview
Member
I'm back home visiting family, and my dad dropped it on me that he's convinced that John Brennan of the CIA is a secret Muslim. I swear I run into some of these every time I'm home, and they're things I never hear about otherwise because they're so deep in the conspiracy-sphere.
I'm actually surprised that I didn't hear about it after the CIA came out with its accusations against Russia. Seems like an easy smear to deploy at that point.
I'm actually surprised that I didn't hear about it after the CIA came out with its accusations against Russia. Seems like an easy smear to deploy at that point.
It doesn't matter how morally good it is if you don't win elections. The consequences of losing this one are going to be devastating for black, latino and muslim populations in particular.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
And we need....
Code:
[IMG]http://screenfish.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/newhopemain.jpg[/IMG]Can you point me to the Democrats who have won elections on the kind of identity-free politics you're describing?
So you honestly believe highlighting social issues is going to cause us losing elections? Highlighting minority issues weren't the issue here. I don't understand how you got that from this election. Like, not even talking about these issues in politics is essentially throwing us in a bus.
whyamihere
Banned
It's my drag name.
VendettaRed07
Member
What Democrats need to do and what they cannot allow to happen is something similar to what happened post 9/11.
We can't let people "rally" around Trump and basically give him the stamp of approval to do what he wants. invade where he wants. Bomb and go to war with whoever he wants.
Even if we suffer a tragic terrorist attack. Don't let that be spun as capitol that gives him approval to do whatever he wants. He's a moron. An idiot. He cannot be trusted with the power with escalating global conflicts. Neither can the people who he has and will appoint.
If anything happens to us its on him. Litigate him. Investigate and tie him up in any way possible. If Benghazi was the direct responsibility of Clinton and Obama do not let a single attack that happens under Trump's watch go without any questioning.
Especially considering how this fucking moron isn't going to be taking daily security briefings. If anything happens to us and he blatantly disregarded security and intelligence briefings throw the fucking books at him.
We can't let people "rally" around Trump and basically give him the stamp of approval to do what he wants. invade where he wants. Bomb and go to war with whoever he wants.
Even if we suffer a tragic terrorist attack. Don't let that be spun as capitol that gives him approval to do whatever he wants. He's a moron. An idiot. He cannot be trusted with the power with escalating global conflicts. Neither can the people who he has and will appoint.
If anything happens to us its on him. Litigate him. Investigate and tie him up in any way possible. If Benghazi was the direct responsibility of Clinton and Obama do not let a single attack that happens under Trump's watch go without any questioning.
Especially considering how this fucking moron isn't going to be taking daily security briefings. If anything happens to us and he blatantly disregarded security and intelligence briefings throw the fucking books at him.
There's a lot of angry ass white people who feel that they're losing out to minorities. I see this every day with my midwestern relatives on facebook. They're wrong and at best diet-racists, but they vote.
Yes, I could compile a list, but if I learned anything from the gaming side it's that listwarz are not a productive way to discuss anything. I'm not saying we abandon it, but de-emphasize it at a national level only in the immediate term. There are governorships and state legislatures that need a stronger sell to middle class apathetic white people. I'm not prescribing a formula for every seat in every district in the country.
And what do you say to your racist relatives on Facebook?
Depends on what they post.
Have you considered telling them that they're wrong to blame their problems on minorities and that voting for a white supremacist is a moral crime?
Yes. Pretty much my whole life now is arguing with people online. Really think the left needs to get on funding professional posters. Not shit-post meme style, but, say, respond to every counterfactual assertion with actual data and facts. I can't look at the fucking weather without some idiot popping off about the global warming conspiracy, then being supported by 10 like minded "free thinkers".
Hillary Clinton
Banned
+1 to The Chosen One's comment.
This is extremely revisionist and disingenuous. John F. Kennedy's Joint Chiefs of Staff unanimously agreed that out of all the options available, the only way to remove the ballistic missile threat from Cuba was to invade and forcibly remove Castro from power. There was intense pressure from all of his advisers, especially since the person who had campaigned on "Eisenhower is too weak" had suddenly decided that he shouldn't listen to the generals. It took an extraordinary amount of restraint to go against his advisers and seek a diplomatic solution instead. The Cuban Missile Crisis was solved peacefully because a great man was president of the United States, not by accident or by the normal course of history.
Your labeling of military pressure against the real, global, international Communist threat against the United States and the free world as "dick measuring" is myopic. In just the past ten years alone:
- The Soviets had tested their first nuclear weapon
- The Soviets formed the Warsaw Pact
- Hungarian students were massacred at a peaceful protest, which shocked western countries as governments utilized this event as anti-communist propaganda
- Khrushchev had announced that they were making "missiles like sausages"
- Cuba had fallen to Communism, the closest encroachment of the red threat to United States yet
To live in the 60s was to live in constant existential fear. Placing missiles in Italy and Turkey was a deterrent against invasion by an ideological enemy of the United States, not a rat race with innocuous consequences.
And Castro was similarly afraid for his own country. He had just survived an overthrow attempt; requesting missiles was not dick measuring. It was survival.
Besides, Trump does not have the fortitude to strengthen our alliances worldwide and to contain our enemies like Russia and China. Comparing the two is at best laughable and at worst a gross slander of a great leader just because denouncing US imperialism is the old/new hip thing.
This is extremely revisionist and disingenuous. John F. Kennedy's Joint Chiefs of Staff unanimously agreed that out of all the options available, the only way to remove the ballistic missile threat from Cuba was to invade and forcibly remove Castro from power. There was intense pressure from all of his advisers, especially since the person who had campaigned on "Eisenhower is too weak" had suddenly decided that he shouldn't listen to the generals. It took an extraordinary amount of restraint to go against his advisers and seek a diplomatic solution instead. The Cuban Missile Crisis was solved peacefully because a great man was president of the United States, not by accident or by the normal course of history.
Your labeling of military pressure against the real, global, international Communist threat against the United States and the free world as "dick measuring" is myopic. In just the past ten years alone:
- The Soviets had tested their first nuclear weapon
- The Soviets formed the Warsaw Pact
- Hungarian students were massacred at a peaceful protest, which shocked western countries as governments utilized this event as anti-communist propaganda
- Khrushchev had announced that they were making "missiles like sausages"
- Cuba had fallen to Communism, the closest encroachment of the red threat to United States yet
To live in the 60s was to live in constant existential fear. Placing missiles in Italy and Turkey was a deterrent against invasion by an ideological enemy of the United States, not a rat race with innocuous consequences.
And Castro was similarly afraid for his own country. He had just survived an overthrow attempt; requesting missiles was not dick measuring. It was survival.
Besides, Trump does not have the fortitude to strengthen our alliances worldwide and to contain our enemies like Russia and China. Comparing the two is at best laughable and at worst a gross slander of a great leader just because denouncing US imperialism is the old/new hip thing.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Hillary Clinton
Banned
So you want to alienate a huge percentage of our coalition in order to make marginal gains in white voters... even though Clinton won by 3 million votes, most of the rust belt states were close, we'll run a much better candidate next time, the demographics in this country are still changing in favor of minorities, and we can just do better economic messaging in the future. Oh, and also set ourselves up to lose more latinos to the Republican party, because 1) we did not stand behind them when entire families were getting deported and 2) once immigration isn't really an issue anymore because Trump follows through on deportation and border security, the fact that latinos are usually more socially conservative will get them to vote Republican.
All because you're tired of arguing with your Midwestern relatives on Facebook who are probably permanently Republican now anyway.
This is the asshole ugly kid saying he rejected the hot girls to prom.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
You have to be careful with this though. If an embassy gets attacked and you go at him in the wrong way, he'll use that to start a war or a crackdown. You have to avoid:
*Embassy gets attacked by terrorists*
Dems: "Trump said Hillary is responsible for Benghazi, and now he can't protect embassies under his control"
Trump: "Then I'll just authorize military action to 'reinforce' our security around our bases."
He needs to be mired in corruption accusations for the next 4 years (easy part) and he can't be allowed to use these accusations to try to correct his behavior through his shitty means (harder).
That's what we've been running since 2012 and it hasn't been working. Forget the POTUS, we should have done much better in the senate this year. That's also a million conditionals, none of which matter if we can't retake congress and state legislatures. How are we going to stop deportations if we don't control a single branch of government, and so few states?
This is a really stupid thing to post. I'm trying to have a discussion in good faith.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
You're getting too worked up imo, but this is a correct assessment of this election. Yes, we lost both Houses of Congress and the White House, but instead of viewing that as a shellacking due to the outcome, we need to consider how that came about; a bunch of small margins that tipped against us. I mean, if we could redistribute about 200K votes, we could tip not only the Presidential race, but we could get the Senate too.
The result is awful, but the cause for the result was not a full catastrophe. Death by a thousand cuts, essentially. I have zero doubt that someone like Ellison (or any full-time chair, even DWS if she'd have left her seat) could get us those winning margins in places like the Rust Belt and NC, FL, etc...
How, exactly? We had an enormous money advantage this election but it did not help us. I admit that I'm not fully versed in what exactly the DNC chair does, but from what I've read it's mainly fundraising.
VendettaRed07
Member
Look, if you guys want to know how to get through to your Trump voting family members at thanksgiving or w/e, give them the same lecture I did.
Here I recorded it if you want to see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyVF1glhAfk
Here I recorded it if you want to see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyVF1glhAfk
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Can three goal deficits actually be overcome in one period in youth hockey? That harms my suspension of disbelief, but I actually have no idea how much scoring there is in youth hockey or how much variance there is in the scoring.
TestOfTide
Banned
No that's how you get to the republicans that DONT like Trump and the So-called-progressives wasting time looking for democrats to blame.
Arrogant Hillary, speaking in the third person. Or maybe it's some brain damage from that concussion.
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