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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented

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lednerg

Member
You know that saying about what happens when you assume things?

Holy Fucking Shit.

The post said that we should avoid old white people.

THAT is what I was responding to.

I'm like, that doesn't matter because we just lost to a 70 year old white man.

You are so into your identity-only politics, it's hypnotic to you.
 

watershed

Banned
OMFG. I don't know who Harris and Kander are. All I know is they aren't white and old, because that was the part of the comment I was responding to in that post way back when.

If you're so deadset on Bernie losing against Trump, then that's your problem. You really hate the guy, I get it. You've got a lot invested in that narrative and I feel bad for you, because it turns out it's wrong. I'm going by the exit polling from the general election that says Bernie would've won.

I think you have some interesting points to make, but maybe you should spend less time being upset about what didn't happen and focus on what to do now with all that has actually happened.

I feel all of gaf needs to move on from the "Bernie would have won" fantasy.
 
OMFG. I don't know who Harris and Kander are. All I know is they aren't white and old, because that was the part of the comment I was responding to in that post way back when.

If you're so deadset on Bernie losing against Trump, then that's your problem. You really hate the guy, I get it. You've got a lot invested in that narrative and I feel bad for you, because it turns out it's wrong. I'm going by the exit polling from the general election that says Bernie would've won.


You keep shifting to points I'm not making.

You said he won open primaries I said he lost 70%.

Glad you flew off the handle about identity politics and rejected politicians you don't even know though....
 

lednerg

Member
I think you have some interesting points to make, but maybe you should spend less time being upset about what didn't happen and focus on what to do now with all that has actually happened.

I feel all of gaf needs to move on from the "Bernie would have won" fantasy.

I've spent a lot of time explaining here what needs to be done going forward. The Dems need to run populist candidates that are angry for the people and who put forward some kind of radical plan for a change. (The Dems had one of those, once upon a time.)
 

kirblar

Member
Holy Fucking Shit.

The post said that we should avoid old white people.

THAT is what I was responding to.

I'm like, that doesn't matter because we just lost to a 70 year old white man.

You are so into your identity-only politics, it's hypnotic to you.
JFK. Bill Clinton. Obama.

There's a trend.

This is not identity politics. It is learning what works. You are attacking a random straw man, for reasons that reflect very badly on you.

Since you haven't bothered to look at the electoral history of the past 60 years- we ran candidates like Bernie in the '70s. We got destroyed. Things are different today, but not that different.
 

Pixieking

Banned
Imagine if Obama is like a precocious but wise child and he teaches the naive but violent monster Trump that killing is bad

Trump comes back with a week long retreat with Barry, arm in arm, telling horrified GOP staffers that he learned all about how great healthcare would be with single payer and how he never really knew how bad reproductive rights have gotten for women in this nation

At which point, Obama is revealed to be Buddha.

She was ahead of her time. She had to live through gender battles that younger women just didn't have to do. Because of the crap Hillary went through in the 90s, nobody bats an eye when Heidi Cruz makes more than her husband. But because of the crap Hillary went through in the 90s, lots of people just had an ingrained dislike of her.

It's the same reason Jesse Jackson didn't get to be the first black president. If there was any justice in the world, Obama would have been the second black president. But somebody earlier had to fight the hard battles and take the tarnished reputation for doing so. We'll get there, with hopefully way less lag time than between Jackson and Obama.

That's something I never thought of. I think it would make Hillary herself happy (or happier) knowing that even if she lost in a battle between love and hate (almost), she's made the idea of a woman president "normal", and helped young girls realise they can do more in politics.

"hey let's elevate this bigot and normalize his white nationalism that'd be a good boogieman

1) Trump is an absolute dumbass. The media should've just outright called him stupid, not used euphemisms like "inexperienced" and whatever.

2) Trump is easy to manipulate.

Put 1 and 2 together, and you have someone who is... Let's call him the average Racist B Trump voter. Uneducated, a little racist, but mostly because of the GOP hanging everything bad on Hispanics and African Americans.

I am of the belief that the administration as a whole is comparable to Hitler's from 1933 on. That said, if Obama has his ear, then you have the Angel of Obama on one shoulder, and the Devil of Bannon on the other. Which is a far better situation than just Bannon, right?

For the same reason, if Hillary (or Bill?) has Trump's ear, then more good can come out of this than pure evil. I absolutely want Trump and the GOP to crash and burn, but we have to temper righteousness (at them getting what they deserve) with kindness (knowing how many could be hurt).

Also, the rest of the DNC/Democrats can and should attack Trump and the GOP. As long as there is a hard and fast line between former Dems (Obama/Hillary) and current, it wouldn't create any cognitive dissonance.

I've spent a lot of time explaining here what needs to be done going forward. The Dems need to run populist candidates that are angry for the people and who put forward some kind of radical plan for a change. (The Dems had one of those, once upon a time.)

You realise the people are angry at more than Rich Guys, right? The women in Texas forced to travel hundreds of miles for an abortion? The trans-teens in NC who want to use whatever bathroom they want? People angry at the lack of mental health for their friends and family? People angry at EpiPen prices?
 

lednerg

Member
You keep shifting to points I'm not making.

You said he won open primaries I said he lost 70%.

Glad you flew off the handle about identity politics and rejected politicians you don't even know though....

I talked about that shit how many hours ago? Whatever. Your queen shit the bed horribly along with Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who has lost us over 1,000 state legislature seats and dozens of Senate and House seats. In my mind, I would've fired these failures ages ago. They. Fucking. Suck.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
Despite barely losing Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan, I'm not sure their future in winning the 2020 presidency. We know some Trump voters in these states voted for Obama, so does that mean most can flip back to a Democrat, or are they becoming Republicans? Are the demographics just unfavorable and will continue to worsen?

I do believe Ohio and (especially) Iowa are lost causes. They swung so hard Trump that North Carolina and Arizona would be better states to utilize resources at. I wish the amount of money they spent in each state was leaked.
 
I talked about that shit how many hours ago? Whatever. Your queen shit the bed horribly along with Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who has lost us over 1,000 state legislature seats and dozens of Senate and House seats. In my mind, I would've fired these failures ages ago. They. Fucking. Suck.

So a lie has a time limit?
 
There is some damn hostility going on here.

Bernie lost. Hillary lost. Those are facts.

What-ifs are nice, but dawdling too much in them in unhealthy. Stop the fighting Polifam, it hurts me that we went from being a jovial thread into a flaming taco.

FUCK I FORGOT NO MORE TACO TRUCKS

:( I'm fucking sad.

Despite barely losing Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan, I'm not sure their future in winning the 2020 presidency. We know some Trump voters in these states voted for Obama, so does that mean most can flip back to a Democrat, or are they becoming Republicans? Are the demographics just unfavorable and will continue to worsen?

I do believe Ohio and (especially) Iowa are lost causes. They swung so hard Trump that North Carolina and Arizona would be better states to utilize resources at.

It's questionable. Hillary had high unfavorables. I imagine there were as many people who said "I'd rather vote HIlary than Trump" as there were "I'd rather vote Trump than Hillary", and you have the people who were going "I'd rather vote neither".

It really is unforeseen territory. It's why I also believe that calling every single trump voter a bigot is shortsighted. At the same time, it was that fear that led people to crawl to him.

I feel charisma should be the key factor of the next candidate.
 

watershed

Banned
Despite barely losing Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan, I'm not sure their future in winning the 2020 presidency. We know some Trump voters in these states voted for Obama, so does that mean most can flip back to a Democrat, or are they becoming Republicans? Are the demographics just unfavorable and will continue to worsen?

I do believe Ohio and (especially) Iowa are lost causes. They swung so hard Trump that North Carolina and Arizona would be better states to utilize resources at.

I think pretty much all the states Obama won that Hillary lost are still in play. Messaging should change, a better campaign and a better candidate can compete for those states again. There were a lot of bad political dynamics in this particular election that won't be present in 2020. But of course 2020 will present its own challenges.
 

Pixieking

Banned
I hate talking about the WWC but would they mind voting for a black woman? I wonder how michelle obama's favorability ratings are there.

God knows... You get into things like implicit racism and normalised sexism at that point. I wonder what the figures are for men (and women!) who thought "My daughter and sister know their place, and I think Hillary should just be a good mom to Chelsea."
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
I hate talking about the WWC but would they mind voting for a black woman? I wonder how michelle obama's favorability ratings are there.
Stop. Michelle Obama wants nothing to do with public office. Give up the dream, she's not interested. The fact that she basically hates politics should be reason enough to not want her to get involved, too.
 

Debirudog

Member
I didn't even think of Bernie regarding age, hell, I don't want Biden for the 2020 election considering how old he'll be. Nothing to do with me hating on Bernie when I have been agreeing on him a lot more lately.
 
Stop. Michelle Obama wants nothing to do with public office. Give up the dream, she's not interested. The fact that she basically hates politics should be reason enough to not want her to get involved, too.
I'm not talking about Michelle for running purposes lol. she's just the only widely known black woman in politics you could find favorability for.
 

Pixieking

Banned
Also, this:

dan sinker ‏@dansinker 3h3 hours ago

STOP CALLING THEM THE "ALT RIGHT." START CALLING THEM WHITE SUPREMACISTS. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

If media don't start doing this very soon, I'm going to start complaining. Loudly.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I'm taking a week away from politics, hopefully by then a certain subset of posters will get the stick out of their ass that this election was mostly Clinton's fault and hopefully by then we will have a full set of data to look at rather than speculation.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Despite barely losing Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan, I'm not sure their future in winning the 2020 presidency. We know some Trump voters in these states voted for Obama, so does that mean most can flip back to a Democrat, or are they becoming Republicans? Are the demographics just unfavorable and will continue to worsen?

I do believe Ohio and (especially) Iowa are lost causes. They swung so hard Trump that North Carolina and Arizona would be better states to utilize resources at. I wish the amount of money they spent in each state was leaked.
Considering a lot of the jobs Trump promised to bring back are pretty much doomed to never return, there's a hope some of those voters will be primed to rebel against the Republican ticket next time around. Democrats just need to be ready to give them an excuse to pull the trigger.

I think it's probably foolish to write off Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. Hopefully there's a decent Democrat who can run for the governorship in Michigan in 2018, that would help. That state has been so fucked by Snyder. Not sure how Walker's holding up at this point. I don't think anything about this election suggests those states have made major realignments, just a bunch of more unique factors adjusting the norm.

I'm not talking about Michelle for running purposes lol. she's just the only widely known black woman in politics you could find favorability for.
Ah, alright.
 

lednerg

Member
You realise the people are angry at more than Rich Guys, right? The women in Texas forced to travel hundreds of miles for an abortion? The trans-teens in NC who want to use whatever bathroom they want? People angry at the lack of mental health for their friends and family? People angry at EpiPen prices?
I'm not a Republican.

So a lie has a time limit?
The Democratic Party leadership as it is right now are a bunch of out of touch, rich dorks who are more concerned with their donors than their voters. The evidence for this is plainly available. Don't worry, I have bad things to say about the GOP, too.
 

Pixieking

Banned
mainstream media don't wanna offend people for those ratings, tho.

Don't care... I'm a paying member of the WaPo and NYT, but if they're not going to call a spade a spade, then they're literally worthless.

I'm not a Republican.

By this, I assume you mean "Yes, I realise". In which case, it should be clear that there's more than one way for a politician to be angry on behalf of their base, and that appealing to more people means focusing on more issues. The down-side of that is that it makes a single-issue "angry politician for change" not really politically feasible. I wasn't paying a ton of attention to Bernie during Primaries, but how angry was he at NC about LGBTQ rights? Or Texas and abortion rights? All I got from him was anger about Wall Street and the 1%.

Again, this is why Republican's message so better - anti-abortion, pro-gun rights. There's some other stuff too, but those are the big ones, and because there's only two, it's soooooo easy to package that up in a politician.
 

Vahagn

Member
Hey guys, sorry if I missed lengthy discussions post-election. But how do we mobilize all of us to make change? I know I'm not the most vocal participant here. But surely we can transform this place from poli sci version of gamer-gaf to an actual forum for action. Memes and articles and general "what the fuck are they doing?!?!" Is fun. But how do we mobilize ourselves to eliminate this cheeto turd sandwich
 
Hey guys, sorry if I missed lengthy discussions post-election. But how do we mobilize all of us to make change? I know I'm not the most vocal participant here. But surely we can transform this place from poli sci version of gamer-gaf to an actual forum for action. Memes and articles and general "what the fuck are they doing?!?!" Is fun. But how do we mobilize ourselves to eliminate this cheeto turd sandwich

Short of open rebellion, not alot we could do.

If Trump was eliminated or removed, then that would mean Pence would be president, and he would be much much worse than Trump
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
I think pretty much all the states Obama won that Hillary lost are still in play. Messaging should change, a better campaign and a better candidate can compete for those states again. There were a lot of bad political dynamics in this particular election that won't be present in 2020. But of course 2020 will present its own challenges.
While there are a many factors to consider, especially since a lot can happen in four years, right now I don't see Ohio being worth the investment. The cost per vote must have been much higher than Wisconsin, which she never even visited once after the convention.

Swing states come and go: Ohio and Iowa are leaning more Republican. Campaigns have to decide where to best utilize their resources.
 

lednerg

Member
Hey guys, sorry if I missed lengthy discussions post-election. But how do we mobilize all of us to make change? I know I'm not the most vocal participant here. But surely we can transform this place from poli sci version of gamer-gaf to an actual forum for action. Memes and articles and general "what the fuck are they doing?!?!" Is fun. But how do we mobilize ourselves to eliminate this cheeto turd sandwich

Electoral politics are done for a couple years. In the meantime, we could promote efforts such as worker-based or community-based cooperatives. This one that just launched in Greensboro, NC is a prime example of what can be done.

[This is a three video playlist]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxslQftdoWw&list=PLIwT3Ccq2SFBGEdQlHRb0lm7zpLiIXXzt

By this, I assume you mean "Yes, I realise". In which case, it should be clear that there's more than one way for a politician to be angry on behalf of their base, and that appealing to more people means focusing on more issues. The down-side of that is that it makes a single-issue "angry politician for change" not really politically feasible. I wasn't paying a ton of attention to Bernie during Primaries, but how angry was he at NC about LGBTQ rights? Or Texas and abortion rights? All I got from him was anger about Wall Street and the 1%.

Again, this is why Republican's message so better - anti-abortion, pro-gun rights. There's some other stuff too, but those are the big ones, and because there's only two, it's soooooo easy to package that up in a politician.

If you're not angry about Wall Street and the 1%, especially after 2008 and how nobody was held accountable, then that's on you. Most people have been able to understand that message quite clearly all across the board.
 

Vahagn

Member
Short of open rebellion, not alot we could do.

If Trump was eliminated or removed, then that would mean Pence would be president, and he would be much much worse than Trump


I mean, to oppose and then win the senate in 2018. John Oliver had a good piece today but honestly we gotta mobilize and do everything needed to pull this off
 

Totakeke

Member
The fact that John Oliver's newest video has 31k likes and 7k dislikes, along with the hateful comments, signal to me that after the rise of the alt-right, we might have to contend with the rise of the far left. Political polarization might get far worse before it gets better.
 

Pixieking

Banned
Hey guys, sorry if I missed lengthy discussions post-election. But how do we mobilize all of us to make change? I know I'm not the most vocal participant here. But surely we can transform this place from poli sci version of gamer-gaf to an actual forum for action. Memes and articles and general "what the fuck are they doing?!?!" Is fun. But how do we mobilize ourselves to eliminate this cheeto turd sandwich

Short of open rebellion, not alot we could do.

If Trump was eliminated or removed, then that would mean Pence would be president, and he would be much much worse than Trump

That's true with regards to Trump/Pence specifically.

But there's still a lot we can do. Currently we're waiting to see what direction the DNC takes, but there's a lot of agreement about the direction or actions they should take, so contact them to volunteer or make your voice heard.

Donate to groups you care about - I'm planning on chucking Planned Parenthood 10 or 20 bucks a month, because they're going to be defunded sooner than Roe v Wade is overturned.

I'm also pushing an idea for a company that both educates voters and pushes a GOTV agenda (bi-partisan/non-partisan). Holding politicians to account, and showing voters how to vote wisely (Congress, Senate and Presidency are all GOP, which is really not what the founding fathers meant to happen, right?). I'm still wanting input on this, and ideas on how to get the seed money for it.

Grassroots activism is good. By the time 2018 hits, a 16 year old who missed voting in this election will be able to vote. My company idea would also go into schools to educate about government and legislature, but even without it, people could start setting up voluntary groups to go around schools, libararies and communities and push the need to vote, amongst children and adults.

Kids are going to be very scared by the amount of hate that's already around, and I fear it's only going to get worse. These children can easily come into the Democrats fold, especially if they see hate and violence in front of them at school.

We can genuinely mobilise decently, for good causes and for the Democrats. We just need to put it into action.

If you're not angry about Wall Street and the 1%, especially after 2008 and how nobody was held accountable, then that's on you. Most people have been able to understand that message quite clearly all across the board.

Acknowledging people are angry about multiple things is not the same as "not being angry at Wall Street". Politics isn't black and white, and anyone who attempts to push that it is needs to grow up.

Also, I would bet that a (hypothetical) 19 year old Texan rape victim who is pregnant with her attacker's child thinks abortion rights are more important in her current situation than what the 1% are doing.

Unrelated:

Emma Roller ‏@emmaroller 7h7 hours ago

News orgs are hesitant to label things "racist" because for (white) editors, it feels like a value judgment, rather than objective reality.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
The fact that John Oliver's newest video has 31k likes and 7k dislikes, along with the hateful comments, signal to me that after the rise of the alt-right, we might have to contend with the rise of the far left. Political polarization might get far worse before it gets better.

its already rising with the purity test bullshit.
 

Vahagn

Member
That video was so awesome! Thanks for sharing! Weirdly enough I got less involved with Obama because even though he was a generational leader and absolutely amazing, he was so amazing that I let go of any personal responsibility and had trust that he'd do a damn good job.

The child raping cheeto on the other hand has motivated me beyond belief to contribute and fight for everything that's right.

25 Dem senators and 8 Republican ones is going to be a blood bath, but if we can hold off and by some miracle flip the senate over we can give Breyer or RGB an ability to retire and then block SC nominations for two years.


Honestly the most direct thing we can do is mobilize about 750K voters from massively in the bag blue states to move to battlegrounds. Cities like Miami and Philly, Charelston, Detroit, Cleveland won't be massive culture shocks to us and we can go tip the scales over. Especially for senate seats.
 
That video was so awesome! Thanks for sharing! Weirdly enough I got less involved with Obama because even though he was a generational leader and absolutely amazing, he was so amazing that I let go of any personal responsibility and had trust that he'd do a damn good job.

The child raping cheeto on the other hand has motivated me beyond belief to contribute and fight for everything that's right.

25 Dem senators and 8 Republican ones is going to be a blood bath, but if we can hold off and by some miracle flip the senate over we can give Breyer or RGB an ability to retire and then block SC nominations for two years.


Honestly the most direct thing we can do is mobilize about 750K voters from massively in the bag blue states to move to battlegrounds. Cities like Miami and Philly, Charelston, Detroit, Cleveland won't be massive culture shocks to us and we can go tip the scales over. Especially for senate seats.

Its worse than that. Many of the Dems are in Swing / Red States. Only 2 Republicans are likely targetable. Though hmmmm, you could try running on a "Check on Unmitigated Power" platform rather than a Democratic one, which may help in some states.
 

Vahagn

Member
Its worse than that. Many of the Dems are in Swing / Red States. Only 2 Republicans are likely targetable. Though hmmmm, you could try running on a "Check on Unmitigated Power" platform rather than a Democratic one, which may help in some states.

For reference - how were things in 2006? Did we have a really advantageous map?
 

Vahagn

Member
It's the same map. 6-year cycle. Likely why we have such a lopsided edge.

Dammit! So 2020 we need a wave election? I can't even with this orange cheeto, there's got to be some tangible solutions. We can't just filibuster everything for 8 years.
 

Vahagn

Member
There were 15 Republican seats, 17 Democratic seats, and 1 independent that were up for change.

So basically what. We all have to move to these states for 3 months, cast a ballot, then move back?

State can't make you wait more than 30 days right? Add in a month for registration to kick in, we can pull this off in 3 months
 

lednerg

Member
Acknowledging people are angry about multiple things is not the same as "not being angry at Wall Street". Politics isn't black and white, and anyone who attempts to push that it is needs to grow up.

Also, I would bet that a (hypothetical) 19 year old Texan rape victim who is pregnant with her attacker's child thinks abortion rights are more important in her current situation than what the 1% are doing.

What are we, incapable of doing more than one thing at once? Please.

And Wall Street currently has control over our political party. I'd like for that not to be the case. If you don't think that can be changed, then maybe that's evidence of a serious problem.

its already rising with the purity test bullshit.

There is no such thing as the alt-left. There's just a bunch of "we are the left" dorks who've glommed onto corporate freaks and then there's the rest.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise

Vahagn

Member
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,_2020

2020 looks good. We can definitely take the senate back then unless trump's popularity surges.

What are we, incapable of doing more than one thing at once? Please.

And Wall Street currently has control over our political party. I'd like for that not to be the case. If you don't think that can be changed, then maybe that's evidence of a serious problem.



There is no such thing as the alt-left. There's just a bunch of "we are the left" dorks who've glommed onto corporate freaks and then there's the rest.

Dude. Bernie lost older white voters to Hillary by pretty large margins. Bernie MAY have beaten Trump, but he had issues with minorities and older white voters. You don't win a GE relying on young people ever. His immigration stance was Lou Dobbs lite in 2007 - the Hispanic vote would have been suppressed and so would the black vote. Hillary was a piece of plywood as far as enthusiasm. We don't need a socialist. We need a charismatic person that motivates the Obama coalition. I would love me some Kamala Harris 2020 to be honest. Experience is overrated, it's actually even a detriment.
 

BanGy.nz

Banned
So basically what. We all have to move to these states for 3 months, cast a ballot, then move back?

State can't make you wait more than 30 days right? Add in a month for registration to kick in, we can pull this off in 3 months

If you want to feel better about 2018 take a look at the Gubernatorial election map.
 

Vahagn

Member
All of those states looks deep red to me. unless there's a wave or a lot of scandals.

Colorado and Iowa we could do. Joni Ernst isn't strong. The rest of them, ya we need a wave. I mean, we don't even need a wave, we just need to beat trump. They're going to massively lower the Hispanic population in Texas and Virginia. I wonder what's going to happen with sanctuary cities. I think if push comes to shove liberals give them up. That would be worst case scenario because we'd lose all credibility with the Hispanic community.
 

Pixieking

Banned
What are we, incapable of doing more than one thing at once? Please.

And Wall Street currently has control over our political party. I'd like for that not to be the case. If you don't think that can be changed, then maybe that's evidence of a serious problem.

Again - Me pointing out that normal people are angry about more than just Wall Street (if Wall Street even factors into their thoughts) is not me acquiescing to Wall Street's hold. It's me being a pragmatist. (Also, I never said that it couldn't be changed.)

It's interesting that you rhetorically ask "What are we, incapable of doing more than one thing at once?", and yet you focus on Wall Street and the 1% in so much of what you write. Understand that, whilst Wall Street affects so much for so many people, its effects are tangential to a student in NC who wants to use the bathroom of their choice, or a pregnant woman in Texas (for just two examples).
 
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