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[User 463088]

Thanks to that Vox article, I banked a few more Hillary votes in my family. Oldest nephew was feeling the Bern, but has been waffling a bit. Sister was undecided but saw the tax charts and said oh heck no. She's dragging my BIL to vote on the 15th.

 

[Kalnos]

The caucus in Kentucky is going to be a clusterfuck. It's normally a primary in May but Rand Paul had it changed to a caucus for this year so he could run for President/Senate simultaneously. I'm guessing due to the extreme change of date and the fact that no one here knows how a caucus works will result in a lower turnout. I have no idea who that favors.

 

[FiggyCal]

That's discouraging. Are we just not going to ever have single payer because tax rates will rise and dems don't like that?

 

[ugaboga232]

Thanks to that Vox article, I banked a few more Hillary votes in my family. Oldest nephew was feeling the Bern, but has been waffling a bit. Sister was undecided but saw the tax charts and said oh heck no. She's dragging my BIL to vote on the 15th.

Glad that misleading tax charts without context can fulfill their roll, not that sanders has any chance of nomination or getting his plans passed if he gets presidency.

 

[B-Dubs]

The caucus in Kentucky is going to be a clusterfuck. It's normally a primary in May but Rand Paul had it changed to a caucus for this year so he could run for President/Senate simultaneously. I'm guessing due to the extreme change of date and the fact that no one here knows how a caucus works will result in a lower turnout. I have no idea who that favors.

That's what has me iffy. Only poll I could find had Rubio in second and Cruz in third. Usually I don't bet unless I think I've got an edge, but here it's all guesswork.

I assume lower turnout hurts Trump and helps the other two. I also assume Cruz's people will work hard to drive turnout. Then there's Rubio, who surprised me in Minnesota. If he can pull it off here too I can turn $25 into $300.

 

[Mario]

The debates don't matter any more. I think most people have their minds made up and won't change.

The GOP should stop having them for sure. There is no way to pivot them from where they are at now to having substantive debates about policy as any debate with Trump participating is going to be a circus.

But the networks love them for the ad revenue/ratings. So they'll keep pushing.

And every new debate is chock full of attack ad material for the Democrat nominee in the General Election.

 

[fantomena]

Why are we even still talking about Sanders?

Isn't he still currently running?

Thanks to that Vox article, I banked a few more Hillary votes in my family. Oldest nephew was feeling the Bern, but has been waffling a bit. Sister was undecided but saw the tax charts and said oh heck no. She's dragging my BIL to vote on the 15th.

Wait, people are basing their vote on an article?

Of course taxes would be higher. Thats' how it is in any modern civilized western European democracy.

 

[Black Mamba]

Bernie has no good argument why he has to raise taxes on those making, say, under $100k.

Hey Bernie, want to know a way to raise wages for working class people, relatively? Give them the single-payer healthcare but don't raise their taxes. Instant wage growth.

His main problem is that he believes people making $35k need to pay for their gov't healthcare. No, they do not (or rather, any more than they already do).

 

[Macho Madness]

That's discouraging. Are we just not going to ever have single payer because tax rates will rise and dems don't like that?

It's a tough fucking sell. That's always been the problem.

 

[ugaboga232]

Bernie has no good argument why he has to raise taxes on those making, say, under $100k.

Hey Bernie, want to know a way to raise wages for working class people, relatively? Give them the single-payer healthcare but don't raise their taxes. Instant wage growth.

His main problem is that he believes people making $35k need to pay for their gov't healthcare. No, they do not (or rather, any more than they already do).

I agree but it also isn't a very large tax increase at all at those levels and prevents the argument in the style of romney's 47%. I do lean toward your point though. This is just a conceptual plan at these stages, its not like it won't be debated upon and altered if he becomes president in that alternate world.

 

[BoboBrazil]

That's discouraging. Are we just not going to ever have single payer because tax rates will rise and dems don't like that?

That's right and that's why Bernie would be a disaster in the general.

 

[Coriolanus]

His main problem is that he believes people making $35k need to pay for their gov't healthcare. No, they do not (or rather, any more than they already do).

Indeed. It's one of those things that make no sense whatsoever, even as far as narrative is concerned. You already saying that the milbil are the bane of the nation, might as well say that they should pay for the fucking thing.

Like, why the fuck would you accept the "must have skin in the game" shit?

 

[JesseEwiak]

Bernie has no good argument why he has to raise taxes on those making, say, under $100k.

Hey Bernie, want to know a way to raise wages for working class people, relatively? Give them the single-payer healthcare but don't raise their taxes. Instant wage growth.

His main problem is that he believes people making $35k need to pay for their gov't healthcare. No, they do not (or rather, any more than they already do).

Indeed. It's one of those things that make no sense whatsoever, even as far as narrative is concerned. You already saying that the milbil are the bane of the nation, might as well say that they should pay for the fucking thing.

Like, why the fuck would you accept the "must have skin in the game" shit?

Honestly, it's probably because his policy people want it to be revenue-neutral and there's no way to do that completely on the backs of the 100k plus.

 

[User 463088]

Glad that misleading tax charts without context can fulfill their roll, not that sanders has any chance of nomination or getting his plans passed if he gets presidency.

For the record, I didn't provide the chart to her. My nephew did, and then she texted me to ask me about Hillary vs Bernie. Her main question was did Bernie actually say he'd raise taxes on everyone. That's the only information I provided. She was leaning Hillary anyway, but was willing to give Bernie a look or two.

Isn't he still currently running?



Wait, people are basing their vote on an article?

Of course taxes would be higher. Thats' how it is in any modern civilized western European democracy.

I know this may come as a shock, but the United States is not a western European Democracy. My sister has excellent insurance through her employer that is paid 100%. She would lose hundreds of dollars a month if her taxes went up anywhere close to the numbers Bernie is projecting.

Single payer is fine. Raising taxes on people making $35000 a year is not okay.

 

[fantomena]

That's discouraging. Are we just not going to ever have single payer because tax rates will rise and dems don't like that?

Democrats, for being said to be the "smart party" are often pretty funny.

I know this may come as a shock, but the United States is not a western European Democracy..

Well you better become one because America not being a wester European democracy might be one of the causes for why the US is slowpoking behind at many things like womens rights, gay rights, healthcare etc.

 

[Cerium]

Democrats, for being said to be the "smart party" are often pretty funny.

It's all relative.

We're getting our shit together and rejecting our populist whackjob. The Republicans are getting dragged around by theirs, kicking and screaming.

 

[Officerrob]

That's discouraging. Are we just not going to ever have single payer because tax rates will rise and dems don't like that?

Nobody likes it, that's the problem. Campaigning on raising taxes is a surefire way to get slaughtered in a general election

 

[fantomena]

It's all relative.

We're getting our shit together and rejecting our populist whackjob. The Republicans are getting dragged around by theirs, kicking and screaming.

Yeah, Obama did do a good job on many things. I shed a tear when I read about gay marriage. However, there's still a problem that a lot of americans still want to reverse gay marriage (from what Ive read). If you tried that in my country you would first be laughed at, called a homophobic shithead and then be ignored.

 

[watershed]

I can't believe republicans are actually aiming for a brokered convention. I think it's clear now that it's not just Romney pushing this strategy. Kasich, earlier today, predicted no one would get enough delegates on the first ballot. Cruz and Rubio are both staying in for the same reason. But if they go to a brokered convention and force out Trump, I don't see how Trump doesn't run 3rd party.

 

[Black Mamba]

I agree but it also isn't a very large tax increase at all at those levels and prevents the argument in the style of romney's 47%. I do lean toward your point though. This is just a conceptual plan at these stages, its not like it won't be debated upon and altered if he becomes president in that alternate world.

It is very large for lots of people.

Let me put it this way. If Bernie got his proposal through, it would be a massive cut in wages for my girlfriend. Not only would she end up with worse healthcare (which alone is a cut in wages), she'd be paying what is currently her retirement into these new taxes.

That's just a single example. And I'm not speaking for her, just using what I know about her situation. If I were her, I wouldn't mind a downgrade in my health care (she works for the school district and her benefits are pretty much the best employer benefits unless you're a pro athlete) so that others could receive proper health care. But I would not be happy about the massive tax increase.

Sure, if she lived in a small town in Texas, it wouldn't matter. But she lives in Los Angeles and it's expensive. I'm sure a lot of urban dwellars would feel the pinch with such taxes.

$1.5 trillon per year in increased taxes is so fucking unnecessary. It's nearly a 50% increase on current levels and nearly 25% of GDP in total revenues.


It's also horrible optics for a general election. It makes it untenable for Hillary to take his tax plan and incorporate it into her GE message. What is he thinking, here? Honestly, he's not. He's an ideologue.

 

[User 463088]

Democrats, for being said to be the "smart party" are often pretty funny.



Well you better become one because America not being a wester European democracy might be one of the causes for why the US is slowpoking behind at many things like womens rights, gay rights, healthcare etc.

I've never said we don't have major issues. However, we are a gigantic nation that is ideologically, culturally, racially and ethnically diverse. It is not possible, probable or likely that we can just waive a magic wand and turn ourselves in a socialist utopia. We have problems, and we have to deal with them no question. But we have to deal with them in the constructs of how our government actually works and how people actually vote.

Just saying "Git gud" is not going to work.

 

[Frank the Great]

Bernie's tax plan is so politically stupid. A single player system does not require massive tax increases on the poor and middle classes. He should have proposed military cuts or something. Or he could have done some real talk by acknowledging that the federal government is able to fund programs without offsetting revenue increases.

The plan he cooked up is suicidal.

 

[Slayven]

I can't believe republicans are actually aiming for a brokered convention. I think it's clear now that it's not just Romney pushing this strategy. Kasich, earlier today, predicted no one would get enough delegates on the first ballot. Cruz and Rubio are both staying in for the same reason. But if they go to a brokered convention and force out Trump, I don't see how Trump doesn't run 3rd party.

Meanwhile at RNC headquarters

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

It's a tough fucking sell. That's always been the problem.

That's right and that's why Bernie would be a disaster in the general.

.

No one's getting in campaigning on that. Someday a President may be able to spend the entirety of their political capital getting the ball rolling while in office, though.

 

[ugaboga232]

Bernie's tax plan is so politically stupid. A single player system does not require massive tax increases. He should have proposed military cuts or something. Or he could have done some real talk by acknowledging that the federal government is able to fund programs without offsetting revenue increases.

The plan he cooked up is suicidal.

How do you have a single payer plan without raising revenue unless you go full explode the deficit. Single payer is big enough that the interest payments become a problem. It would be nice to do it with no tax increases but then people would rag on bernie even more.

 

[RustyNails]

After Rubio, Cruz and Kasich repeatedly saying they will support whoever the nominee is even if it's Trump, Romney is looking like a total dope. Lol.

 

[Cerium]

Yeah, Obama did do a good job on many things. I shed a tear when I read about gay marriage. However, there's still a problem that a lot of americans still want to reverse gay marriage (from what Ive read). If you tried that in my country you would first be laughed at, called a homophobic shithead and then be ignored.

Trump is ironically the least homophobic nominee the GOP has ever had. Dude isn't religious at all.

Asked whether same-sex marriage was a "dead issue," Trump told the magazine, "Some people have hopes of passing amendments, but it's not going to happen. Congress can't pass simple things, let alone that. So anybody that's making that an issue is doing it for political reasons. The Supreme Court ruled on it."

Other presidential candidates in the crowded Republican field have called for a constitutional amendment to overturn the June Supreme Court ruling that legalized same-sex marriage in the United States. Former Wisconsin governor Scott Walker, Senator Ted Cruz, and former Senator Rick Santorum have all announced support for the proposed amendment.

Trump also mentioned that he attended Broadway theater owner Jordan Roth's marriage to his husband, Richie Jackson, in 2012.

Watch his original tirade against Rosie O'Donnell back in 2006. He hits her on every fucking thing except for her sexual orientation.

It's not the chubbiness, Rosie is a very unattractive person, both inside and out. Rosie's a person who's very lucky to have her girlfriend. And she better be careful or I'll send one of my friends over to pick up her girlfriend -- why would she stay with Rosie if she had another choice?

 

[fantomena]

I've never said we don't have major issues. However, we are a gigantic nation that is ideologically, culturally, racially and ethnically diverse. It is not possible, probable or likely that we can just waive a magic wand and turn ourselves in a socialist utopia. We have problems, and we have to deal with them no question. But we have to deal with them in the constructs of how our government actually works and how people actually vote.

Just saying "Git gud" is not going to work.

I know.

The lack of gay rights, women rights, worker rights, healthcare etc. are some of the reasons why I could mentally not live in US.

 

[ugaboga232]

It is very large for lots of people.

Let me put it this way. If Bernie got his proposal through, it would be a massive cut in wages for my girlfriend. Not only would she end up with worse healthcare (which alone is a cut in wages), she'd be paying what is currently her retirement into these new taxes.

That's just a single example. And I'm not speaking for her, just using what I know about her situation. If I were her, I wouldn't mind a downgrade in my health care (she works for the school district and her benefits are pretty much the best employer benefits unless you're a pro athlete) so that others could receive proper health care. But I would not be happy about the massive tax increase.

Sure, if she lived in a small town in Texas, it wouldn't matter. But she lives in Los Angeles and it's expensive. I'm sure a lot of urban dwellars would feel the pinch with such taxes.

$1.5 trillon per year in increased taxes is so fucking unnecessary. It's nearly a 50% increase on current levels and nearly 25% of GDP in total revenues.


It's also horrible optics for a general election. It makes it untenable for Hillary to take his tax plan and incorporate it into her GE message. What is he thinking, here? Honestly, he's not. He's an ideologue.

It is horrible optics I agree. Your GF is getting a ton of compensation in an amazing healthcare plan and is a public employee which makes this tricky but if she is really getting burned by that ~8% tax increase which assumes the government won't pay her more for saving a ton on her healthcare then she makes a ton of money.

 

[Black Mamba]

Indeed. It's one of those things that make no sense whatsoever, even as far as narrative is concerned. You already saying that the milbil are the bane of the nation, might as well say that they should pay for the fucking thing.

Like, why the fuck would you accept the "must have skin in the game" shit?

Exactly. His whole damn campaign is predicated on the elites screwing the poor and working class and yet he's telling the working class that they're still not paying enough!?

How does this appeal to them at all? If I'm being screwed, you rectify it by giving me benefits at their expense. Simple. Coherent.

Honestly, it's probably because his policy people want it to be revenue-neutral and there's no way to do that completely on the backs of the 100k plus.

Which is dumb, and I don't mean this from an economic standpoint (which it also is but...)

The GOP don't even care about revenue neutrality anymore. They're asking for huge tax cuts and military spending increases and not many spending cuts anywhere. So why must Bernie adhere to revenue neutrality?

Furthermore, even if he wanted to adhere to it, why not just fucking handwave it away just like the GOP has done forever? His policies will grow the economy and thus increase tax revenues. he'll also cut military spending, mostly by being more efficient, and get rid of corporate handouts and such. Done and done. He won't have to prove it (The GOP never does).


Again, Bernie is good at identifying problems but he doesn't know how to solve them. This is why he'd be a piss poor President.

It is horrible optics I agree. Your GF is getting a ton of compensation in an amazing healthcare plan and is a public employee which makes this tricky but if she is really getting burned by that ~8% tax increase which assumes the government won't pay her more for saving a ton on her healthcare then she makes a ton of money.

She's capped out by union rules. She can't get anything but a cost of living raise without changing jobs.

There are lots of people like her in gov't. But that was just one example.

There are many others in the corporate world where the corps would pocket the savings, wages stagnate for the worker, but now their taxes go up. 8% is nothing to sneeze at. Then you're single and paying $1200-1600 in rent just to live in an urban city (NY bros, I know I know...you'd love that), it's a lot.

 

[fantomena]

Trump is ironically the least homophobic nominee the GOP has ever had. Dude isn't religious at all.

That's good. I like Trump for his stance on the TPP and the war and invasion in Middle-East (if he doesn't lie about that). Other than that he is nuttier than squirrel shit.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Yeah, Obama did do a good job on many things. I shed a tear when I read about gay marriage. However, there's still a problem that a lot of americans still want to reverse gay marriage (from what Ive read). If you tried that in my country you would first be laughed at, called a homophobic shithead and then be ignored.

Talking about Western European values is kind of funny at the moment when populist right wing parties all around the continent are gaining votes because of Trumpian bluster against Muslim refugees.

Which is dumb, and I don't mean this from an economic standpoint (which it also is but...)

The GOP don't even care about revenue neutrality anymore. They're asking for huge tax cuts and military spending increases and not many spending cuts anywhere. So why must Bernie adhere to revenue neutrality?

To be fair to Bernie, there is a massive Beltway bias against liberals when it comes to raising taxes when compared to lowering tax rates. So, thanks to the ghosts of Mondale (and to a lesser extent, Bill Clinton), new social spending without it being revenue neutral has become something Democrat's plan for because they know the game is rigged - it's part of the reason why the ACA is such a Goldbergian contraption.

 

[kingkitty]

who wants to create the Sunday Dem debate?

quoting for visibility. any takers for the thread?

 

[fantomena]

Talking about Western European values is kind of funny at the moment when populist right wing parties all around the continent are gaining votes because of Trumpian bluster against Muslim refugees.

I know. WHat I also find funny is that all those right-wingers suddenly started caring about womens rights, gay rights when the refugee crisis really kicked off. Not a word on it before.

I believe they are just using women and gay people as a weapon in their arguments.

However, there are some arguments I agreed with them in. Like that Islam has fundemental issues and needs reforms.

Im an atheist and dislike all religions. People who want to limit gay rights and women rights due to their beliefs (or for any reason for that matter) can fuck right off.

 

[A Human Becoming]

That's good. I like Trump for his stance on the TPP and the war and invasion in Middle-East (if he doesn't lie about that). Other than that he is nuttier than squirrel shit.

You can't trust anything Trump says. He's a huge bullshitter.

 

[ugaboga232]

Exactly. His whole damn campaign is predicated on the elites screwing the poor and working class and yet he's telling the working class that they're still not paying enough!?

How does this appeal to them at all? If I'm being screwed, you rectify it by giving me benefits at their expense. Simple. Coherent.



Which is dumb, and I don't mean this from an economic standpoint (which it also is but...)

The GOP don't even care about revenue neutrality anymore. They're asking for huge tax cuts and military spending increases and not many spending cuts anywhere. So why must Bernie adhere to revenue neutrality?

Furthermore, even if he wanted to adhere to it, why not just fucking handwave it away just like the GOP has done forever? His policies will grow the economy and thus increase tax revenues. he'll also cut military spending, mostly by being more efficient, and get rid of corporate handouts and such. Done and done. He won't have to prove it (The GOP never does).


Again, Bernie is good at identifying problems but he doesn't know how to solve them. This is why he'd be a piss poor President.




She's capped out by union rules. She can't get anything but a cost of living raise without changing jobs.

There are lots of people like her in gov't. But that was just one example.

There are many others in the corporate world where the corps would pocket the savings, wages stagnate for the worker, but now their taxes go up. 8% is nothing to sneeze at. Then you're single and paying $1200-1600 in rent just to live in an urban city (NY bros, I know I know...you'd love that), it's a lot.

I think its a bit naive to say all the money would be perfectly pocketed given it would take a nation wide cartel. But it does make things wonky with unions and contractual stuff like that. Hopefully some provisions would be in the plan given how conceptual the plan is at this time. I do agree sanders is better at identifying problems than solutions but his job as president is not really to solve everything as a lot of that burden falls on congress. I do pretty much agree with you on everything else though.

 

[Tesseract]

You can't trust anything Trump says. He's a huge bullshitter.

so is hillary

 

[pigeon]

Democrats, for being said to be the "smart party" are often pretty funny.



Well you better become one because America not being a wester European democracy might be one of the causes for why the US is slowpoking behind at many things like womens rights, gay rights, healthcare etc.

As I seem to keep having to reiterate, many western European democracies, including such backwaters as the Netherlands and Switzerland, do not have single-payer healthcare.

 

[A Human Becoming]

so is hillary

Hillary at least is consistent with her bullshitting.

Spoiler

I kid.

 

[QuiteWhittle]

Hillary at least is consistent with her bullshitting.

Spoiler

I kid.

She is. Clinton has consistently been a moderate liberal for her entire career. What "moderate liberal" means, from the 90s, 00s, to the 10s, might change, and so will her positions, but she'll always be a moderate liberal in the present.

 

[PBY]

Charlie KayeVerified account
‏@CharlieKayeCBS
Just now. Ben Carson, in address to conservative conference, says what we need in America is "trickle down ethics."

 

[Y2Kev]

Yes I want to be peed on by religious folk.

Hope he nails ted Cruz.

 

[CCS]

Charlie KayeVerified account
‏@CharlieKayeCBS
Just now. Ben Carson, in address to conservative conference, says what we need in America is "trickle down ethics."

Wonder if this will go down better than trickle down economics.

 

[RustyNails]

That's good. I like Trump for his stance on the TPP and the war and invasion in Middle-East (if he doesn't lie about that). Other than that he is nuttier than squirrel shit.

Trump is to the left of Hillary on the Israel issue at least. We really need someone to honestly fault Israel. They have been getting away with illegal landgrab and property seizures for decades under USA's friendship.

#1 issue every highlevel captured terrorist from KSM to OBL have stated Israel's aggressions being partly responsible for their actions.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Yeah, Obama did do a good job on many things. I shed a tear when I read about gay marriage. However, there's still a problem that a lot of americans still want to reverse gay marriage (from what Ive read). If you tried that in my country you would first be laughed at, called a homophobic shithead and then be ignored.

To be fair the vast majority of Americans support gay marriage or feel it's a settled issue.

I don't think republicans have to support gay marriage to become viable nationally but at some point they need to drop the antagonism. John Kasich's position is probably the future: the court has settled the issue, time to move on.

 

[Yellowtail]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/secr...al-private-email-state-dept/story?id=37404084

The State Department’s internal investigation arm issued a final memorandum today on the email practices of past and current secretaries of state, and it said definitively that past secretaries handled classified material on unclassified email systems.

The same claims were made in an early February memo when the State Department's inspector general first announced it was conducting a records review related to the email accounts of five secretaries of state -- Madeline Albright, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Hillary Clinton and John Kerry -- and their immediate staff.

After closely examining a number of potentially sensitive emails with help from State Department and Intelligence Community officials, the State Department's inspector general concluded that 12 emails contain “national security information classified at the Secret or Confidential levels.” Additionally, it was determined none of the emails contained intelligence information, meaning it was classified for other reasons.

The emails in question, as the inspector general has previously stated, came from Secretary Powell’s personal email account and personal email accounts of Secretary Rice’s immediate staff.

INDICT THEM ALL!

 

[JesseEwiak]

To be fair the vast majority of Americans support gay marriage or feel it's a settled issue.

I don't think republicans have to support gay marriage to become viable nationally but at some point they need to drop the antagonism. John Kasich's position is probably the future: the court has settled the issue, time to move on.

The social conservative core (Rod Dreher, The Federalist, Focus on the Family, etc.) has moved on to make transgender people the new boogeymen - see the various bathroom laws being pushed in state legislatures.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Wonder if this will go down better than trickle down economics.

In all fairness, if the people benefiting from trickle down economics actually had more ethics than people below them then trickle down economics might actually work.

 

[CCS]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/secr...al-private-email-state-dept/story?id=37404084

INDICT THEM ALL!

Chances of the Republicans launching a crusade over this?

 

[Bowdz]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/secr...al-private-email-state-dept/story?id=37404084

INDICT THEM ALL!

HILLARY MADE THEM DO IT! BENGHAZI! VINCE FOSTER!!!!

WHITEWATER!!!!!!!!!!!