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PoliGAF 2016 |OT2| we love the poorly educated
- Thread starter Makai
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But jokers are wild :/
The way Bernie talks about it though makes it sound like anything financial is the ultimate evil. IMO, it's totally stupid and unrealistic.
In a US where he is President, how would he get anything done? It just all seems like a big fantasy to me, and not a good one. Not getting it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I am genuinely amazed that millennial liberals aren't turning out for the first candidate to ever frame issues of oppression in terms of intersectionality. I hadn't realized a.) just how effective a 20 year smear campaign could be and b.) just how much other "considerations" go out the window when you find a candidate who taps into economic bitterness
I'm basically fine with the Dem primary continuing as it keeps the Dem side of the race in the news, and forces Hillary to sharpen and adjust her message for a likely populist challenge in the GE---as long as it doesn't completely poison the well for her amongst Sanders' supporters. All the media cheerleading and roller coaster aspects don't matter in the end (at least until they need to be dug up during a future election).
Now, if Sanders somehow pulls off the nomination in an incredible upset, and wins the general in possibly an even bigger upset, he had better select a young and healthy VP, because I do not want a goddamned President Ryan.
Also, nothing relating to foreign policy or any foreign country had better happen in the next 4-8 years.
Also correct. 538 targets have Bernie at 80 delegates to be on track, and he's probably going to get around 63 due to the blowout in Mississippi. Combined with his earlier underperformance, and the odds got even longer, unless polls are 20% off everywhere in his favor (which I don't think they are).
Now, if Sanders somehow pulls off the nomination in an incredible upset, and wins the general in possibly an even bigger upset, he had better select a young and healthy VP, because I do not want a goddamned President Ryan.
Also, nothing relating to foreign policy or any foreign country had better happen in the next 4-8 years.
Also correct. 538 targets have Bernie at 80 delegates to be on track, and he's probably going to get around 63 due to the blowout in Mississippi. Combined with his earlier underperformance, and the odds got even longer, unless polls are 20% off everywhere in his favor (which I don't think they are).
She's been getting smeared for longer than a lot of those voters have been alive, that shit seeps into your subconscious. Same reason you have people going on about the liberal media.
Macho Madness
Member
She's old news, too corporate, and a warhawk.
Meanwhile Bernie wants to give you free healthcare and college and jail the big, bad bankers that definitely hate you and steal all your money. What's not to like?
The Carlin line about the average voter is extremely accurate.
BoboBrazil
Member
Don't forget he said he would end racism after saying white people don't know what it's like to be poor.
brainchild
Banned
Cross-posting from the other thread
brainchild said:
Perceived passion and intensity can do a lot when many, many voters do not look deeper into issues than soundbites and gut feelings.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
I would be surprised if most millennials could even tell you what "interectionality" is supposed to refer to, let alone would A) agree with it, as a concept, B) feel strongly enough about it to desire a presidential candidate to campaign on it, or C) use it as a measuring stick to turn out for a candidate espousing it over a candidate speaking directly to an issue that greatly affected them right when they were coming of age.
Disappointing night, but oh well. I will go to bed tonight in a warm blanket of delegates.
But here's the rub: I disagree with the pundits on CNN that this is a sign that Hillary's firewall with black voters is slipping. I think that this is more a sign that the idea that trade deals have cost American jobs is registering in a BIG way in the rust belt and transcending racial lines. It is THE core issue out there.
I said this during the debate Sunday. I agree with Hillary's position on trade. I think she made a good argument for the Export-Import Bank. I do NOT agree with Sanders' isolationism on this. It benefits Americans overall that we participate in the global economy. That's important. We would not be able to enjoy the general lifestyle that we do as Americans without it. That's just a fact.
But this is exactly where Hillary's wonkishness hurts her. Even while listening to her during the debate and agreeing with her stances, I found my eyes glazing over because she was getting way too technical, and even for me she was hard to follow at times. A dissertation on global trade crammed into a 10 minute debate segment just isn't as instantly palatable as "FOREIGN TRADE IS TAKING YOUR JOBS" and "CORPORATE WELFARE! BAD!" even if those basic stances are wrong. This is especially the case when you're talking to a portion of the country that already feels that foreign trade is the boogieman.
Going forward, she needs to find a way to explain her position on trade, explain the benefits on trade, using simpler language that the public can grab onto.
However, even as a Hillary supporter, I'm not sure she can. Thank god she racked up a delegate lead in the South, she might have to hand this region to Bernie, and just fight to keep things close.
But here's the rub: I disagree with the pundits on CNN that this is a sign that Hillary's firewall with black voters is slipping. I think that this is more a sign that the idea that trade deals have cost American jobs is registering in a BIG way in the rust belt and transcending racial lines. It is THE core issue out there.
I said this during the debate Sunday. I agree with Hillary's position on trade. I think she made a good argument for the Export-Import Bank. I do NOT agree with Sanders' isolationism on this. It benefits Americans overall that we participate in the global economy. That's important. We would not be able to enjoy the general lifestyle that we do as Americans without it. That's just a fact.
But this is exactly where Hillary's wonkishness hurts her. Even while listening to her during the debate and agreeing with her stances, I found my eyes glazing over because she was getting way too technical, and even for me she was hard to follow at times. A dissertation on global trade crammed into a 10 minute debate segment just isn't as instantly palatable as "FOREIGN TRADE IS TAKING YOUR JOBS" and "CORPORATE WELFARE! BAD!" even if those basic stances are wrong. This is especially the case when you're talking to a portion of the country that already feels that foreign trade is the boogieman.
Going forward, she needs to find a way to explain her position on trade, explain the benefits on trade, using simpler language that the public can grab onto.
However, even as a Hillary supporter, I'm not sure she can. Thank god she racked up a delegate lead in the South, she might have to hand this region to Bernie, and just fight to keep things close.
I think you're waaaay overestimating how popular and well known that kind of rhetoric actually is.
Might be popular on GAF, but even in a lot of pretty hardcore liberal places it's extremely divisive (assuming it's even known at all).
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
I can pretty much guarantee that Carlin would be a Bernie voter, breh.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
This suggests that Clinton doesn't have real flaws as a candidate and that the problem is the voters not recognizing what's best for them. The voters aren't to blame here.
Black turnout wasn't what it needed to be for her to win, and Michigan also has a lot of colleges/universities (and black people attend them). There are also a lot of rural areas in the state that have been devastated by the decline of manufacturing. "Saving the auto industry" is a tag that works in a general election when you're running against someone who literally said "let Detroit go bankrupt." It doesn't work as well in a primary when you supported trade deals that are deeply unpopular and people on the ground know that while jobs were saved, a lot are gone. Bad mix.
Makes me curious about Ohio.
It is actually depressing that Hillary can be too knowledgeable on issues for her own good. Her resistance to soundbites damages her in an optics-based, Snapchat-powered political world. I think President Obama has come closest to, I feel, making a soundbite-y argument for trade agreements, in his case in support of TPP. Namely, "look, if we don't write these rules now, China will down the road, and those rules will be less favorable to American interests."
Globalization is not something that can be resisted, certainly not long-term.
Is Carlin the new MLK?
The average voter isn't going to understand what the word "intersectionality" means.
Macho Madness
Member
By the way, I did not mean this as a knock on Bernie voters. I only have anecdotes, and a lot of my friends seem pleased that they're sticking it to the man, and the Clintons.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
What a waste of money
Looks like Hillary STILL got more delegates today, and Sanders did not meet his target.
Every election that goes by with this same formula, his chances dimish.
At least PredictIt got it as Hillary went up 1 cent again to 85
Does that apply to IL?
Bernie/Trump are all about angry populism directed at a scapegoat.
Obama Country.
theprodigy
Member
why the fuck would you even think the average millennial knows what the word intersectionality means
This is true and insanely depressing.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Hillary, being exceedingly rich, the darling of the liberal moneyed classes, and the pre-ordained choice of the liberal political establishment, basically represents everything Carlin hated about politics.
Moreover, the average voter, even if they had the concept of intersectionality explained to them, probably would take issue with one or more parts of it. It's a popular concept amongst educated liberals, which GAF has a shit-ton of, but it's still basically a niche concept not even really guaranteed to "take off" in the same way that anti-racism seems to be, currently, or Marxism did, 100 years ago.
Edit: Also, given that I tend to believe the American government exists primarily to benefit the American people, I don't really have a problem with politicians opposing trade deals that make consumer goods cheaper at the cost of expelling meaningful, good-paying jobs from America.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Ya'll get full of yourselves. Most people have probably not even heard that word before. I did not, I figured it out with context.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Honestly...it might be because people use different words to describe it. I have not heard of this word until recently. I'm a millennial, a poli sci major, and a liberal.
Hillary's not using the word either. It's more that her argument that all these things are connected isn't connecting with younger voters because it's not as catchy a theme as Bernie's blanket condemnations. Black and white is always easier to "get" than shades of grey.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Well, it's also that you could make a pretty strong case that corporate ravaging of the planet and the economy is as big or bigger of a problem, and Bernie has tapped into that.
She used it recently in a speech on race.
That's perfectly fair, but it's not really a conversation that's even been happening, so I don't think we can really say that a verdict is in.
Did not see that; my bad.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Of course, and I understand that: life is complicated. I don't think it's just young people though, maybe more so, since we all naturally gravitate toward easy explanations.
Basileus777
Member
It's a word only people on a college campus or steeped in certain internet sub communities have any cognizance of. It's certainly not a phrase that influences elections.
theprodigy
Member
That wasn't meant to be dismissive of millenials or any other group, I haven't really seen that word used outside GAF either.
She's a capitalist.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Basically any serious conversation on feminism I witness on the internet in other avenues emphasizes the importance of intersectional feminism in direct contrast to historic feminism being exclusionary and simplified
I agree, which is more or less my overall point: That Clinton likes dealing in the muck and shades of grey makes her a weaker politician because voters, as human beings who don't have time to read policy papers and dissertations on complex socioeconomic structures, like things to be as simple as possible. Thus soundbites masquerading as full-fledged policies.
As she should be.
Basileus777
Member
How many voters do you think are familiar with the language of academic feminism?
I appreciate Hillary's speaking in these terms, but it's not something many people are aware of.
Obviously younger voters don't think so.
Quite a number among the younger voters who are motivated enough to come out and vote in a primary, probably.
Basileus777
Member
I doubt it. You're probably talking about a few thousand voters in a state primary.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Capitalism is not going anywhere in the next century or more, I'd wager. What you'll see is America slowly shifting toward a more strictly-regulated European form of capitalism, but the 20th Century poisoned the well for Communism and Socialism throughout much of the west for a very, very long time.
I know, I'm saying that embracing capitalism is bad optics. The youth vote want someone who is openly anti-capitalist (even though Bernie himself is still a capitalist, just a social democrat). Capitalism is a bad word now.
ugaboga232
Member
Century??? in 30 years automation will be super widespread, even doctors will be heavily downsized with watson type computers. Huge changes are coming. 100 years from now civilization will probably be super super super different. Capitalism is not sustainable in the medium term at best.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Young voters are idealistic and moronic. And no...most people don't care for feminism or they have the wrong idea of it.
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