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[Macho Madness]

Monmouth Poll

Pennsylvania

Trump 44
Cruz 28
Kasich 23

 

[Prodigal Son]

It's the biggest problem with a heavily social media focused campaign. It makes the crazy supporters a lot more visible.

Thank you. Where there's large numbers of the passionate, you're going to find the mad ones with the loudest voice in the room. They don't represent everyone else and shouldn't be considered such.

There's good reason to condemn Trump for his supporters actions, for example. We see that he repeatedly endorses the behavior either directly or through his rhetoric.

These people are no more indicative of the Bernie Sanders' campaign than the pieces of shit on twitter (who support Clinton) who were body-shaming Jane.

Bernie has come out and condemned this. There's no reason this should blow up as a means to attack him. Nothing he has said has encouraged sexist attacks.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Browns fans, are you okay?

 

[ApharmdX]

What is the GOP going to use on Hillary that hasn't been beaten to death over the last 20 years?

Nothing, but there's still a lot of meat on that bone for the GE. It'll take a thick skin to get through it, even compared to 2008 and 2012, I'm betting. This kind of comment is child's play.

And it makes that point by comparing them to a woman who had sex for money because under the patriarchy that is the ultimate sellout. I don't know if you're kidding yourself here or what but get the net, it's obviously sexist.

I already agreed, it wasn't the right word for this context, and it's part of a pattern with Bernie supporters, which makes it worse. The word itself is acceptable when referring to politicians. I would have zero problem with someone calling, say, Scott Walker a corporate whore (he is).

 

[Maledict]

What is the GOP going to use on Hillary that hasn't been beaten to death over the last 20 years?

The only potential thing, outside the crazy fictitious email stuff, is the Bill Clinton affairs rumours that were everywhere in 2007 and 2008. There's so much of it around, and so many specific references in various books, that there is the potential for the republicans to drag it out in October. Obviously may be nothing at all, but we know that was a major fear of democrats in 2008 (and one reason the establishment wanted someone to properly challenge her).

 

[Necrovex]

Daily News is the pro clinton paper right? Which one was the anti clinton paper?

Has the NY times editorial board made a recommendation? or the other papers/magazines?

NYT officially endorsed Clinton on the democratic side, and Kasich on the GOP side back in the tail end of January.

 

[daedalius]

wtf is this shit I am waking up to

The term "whore" isn't necessarily sexist, as it describes a person who has wholly sold out. It fits in this context but I would have never said it, definitely agreed that you don't go there with prominent female figures.

You're clueless

 

[balladofwindfishes]

The only potential thing, outside the crazy fictitious email stuff, is the Bill Clinton affairs rumours that were everywhere in 2007 and 2008. There's so much of it around, and so many specific references in various books, that there is the potential for the republicans to drag it out in October. Obviously may be nothing at all, but we know that was a major fear of democrats in 2008 (and one reason the establishment wanted someone to properly challenge her).

I'd honestly be surprised if he didn't have affairs.

I'm not sure it'll be that big of an issue, especially when the opposite side has enough skeletons in their closet to fill a French catacomb.

 

[User 463088]

Thank you. Where there's large numbers of the passionate, you're going to find the mad ones with the loudest voice in the room. They don't represent everyone else and shouldn't be considered such.

There's good reason to condemn Trump for his supporters actions, for example. We see that he repeatedly endorses the behavior either directly or through his rhetoric.

These people are no more indicative of the Bernie Sanders' campaign than the pieces of shit on twitter (who support Clinton) who were body-shaming Jane.

Bernie has come out and condemned this. There's no reason this should blow up as a means to attack him. Nothing he has said has encouraged sexist attacks.

Actually, Bernie's campaign have made several statements and moves that sorta did come off as less than sensitive when it comes to gender. Let's call a spade a spade here. There's a reason these memes linger around Bernie's campaign and it's not because they've been amazing at dealing with these problems.

Bernie has never, ever had control over his followers. He's never even tried to get them to tone it down. His campaign has often times fed into SOME of their paranoia and outright hostility. They've not been good at optics. Not even a little bit.

Browns fans, are you okay?

We're used to the pain.

 

[Officerrob]

wtf is this shit I am waking up to

Liberal tea partiers doing their thing

 

[operon]

First the campaign says she has done a deal with the devil, now its implied she a democratic whore. Can they get any lower

 

[Maledict]

This thing reminds me of when Gingrich went after Romney for being a corporate raider in the 2012 primaries. There are some attacks you just *dont do* against your own party, because you're lining them up for general election adds. The Republican Party really stomped on Gingrich after he did that, and I'm glad Bernie has walked it back quickly. If only his vocal supporters weren't so dumb - but then this ties into the issue they have wherebye everything about Bernie must be perfect.

 

[User 463088]

Nothing, but there's still a lot of meat on that bone for the GE. It'll take a thick skin to get through it, even compared to 2008 and 2012, I'm betting. This kind of comment is child's play.



I already agreed, it wasn't the right word for this context, and it's part of a pattern with Bernie supporters, which makes it worse. The word itself is acceptable when referring to politicians. I would have zero problem with someone calling, say, Scott Walker a corporate whore (he is).

I would have issue with someone calling Scott Walker a corporate whore. Those types of words do not help your cause, no matter what it is. They're too charged. They're too weighted. You don't need to go there. If a campaign does, they get to defend every single connotation. It's even worse when it's levied at a female opponent.

Bernie, eventually, did the right thing. His wife should have had her talking points before she went on the teevee. If his supporters want to keep making this a thing, the media will happily hold onto it. They need to learn to let shit die and not freaking try and die on every single hill they come across.

 

[Crocodile]

I posted the link, and the Trump statement was a joke about how many times we went back and forth about debates affecting Trump's poll numbers back in the day.

Ah gotcha, jokes can be hard to tell online sometimes

 

[NYCmetsfan]

wait was is the democratic whore stuff?

 

[ApharmdX]

The only potential thing, outside the crazy fictitious email stuff, is the Bill Clinton affairs rumours that were everywhere in 2007 and 2008. There's so much of it around, and so many specific references in various books, that there is the potential for the republicans to drag it out in October. Obviously may be nothing at all, but we know that was a major fear of democrats in 2008 (and one reason the establishment wanted someone to properly challenge her).

Not going to fight this here, but the email stuff is far from fictitious. I don't think it'll be a huge issue in the GE, as I think a lot of people don't understand why it's such a big deal, but it is. Hillary should escape indictment here, though, by the virtue of unclear/poorly written policy. It's worrisome when you're talking about putting someone in charge of national security with that kind of judgment.

 

[Officerrob]

wait was is the democratic whore stuff?

Bernie surrogate said it during a rally last night, and his dumbest supporters on the internet are running with it

 

[Prodigal Son]

Actually, Bernie's campaign have made several statements and moves that sorta did come off as less than sensitive when it comes to gender. .

I highly doubt that.

Perhaps you're encountering misogyny from some Bernie supporters because their opponent-Candidate is a women and not because of their own campaign's rhetoric? Do you think there was less gendered hatred from the "Obama-boys"? Have you not encountered extreme misogyny in Clinton-criticism long before Bernie was even on the national stage?

Have you never encountered anti-semitism or ageism in online Bernie-criticism? I have. I don't think it's because of anything Clinton has said.

The simple reality is that very many people in the United States hate Hillary Clinton. Very many people in the United States are also very sexist. The unfortunate reality is that there is an intersection of these two, large groups.

 

[StopMakingSense]

wait was is the democratic whore stuff?

The surrogates at the Bernie rally yesterday got really heated in the anti-Hillary rhetoric, leading up to somebody calling Dem party people supporting Hillary "Democratic Whores"

 

[hawk2025]

If the campaign revolves around rallying the online troops, there should be at least a modest attempt to control it where needed -- which is exactly what was done publicly today, but has been lacking in general. Even if it's like herding cats by nature.

He doesn't get to have his cake and eat it too.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

dude this campaign is flailing around as it dies. I mean all movements do but still. Disappointing that our side is doing this

 

[Armaros]

Not going to fight this here, but the email stuff is far from fictitious. I don't think it'll be a huge issue in the GE, as I think a lot of people don't understand why it's such a big deal, but it is. Hillary should escape indictment here, though, by the virtue of unclear/poorly written policy. It's worrisome when you're talking about putting someone in charge of national security with that kind of judgment.

Hillary was never under criminal investigation.
She didn't escape anything.
Stop getting your talking points from Twitter and Reddit.

 

[Box of Kittens]

Ahh ok. I remember someone mentioning that one paper leans clinton, the other leans conservative.

The conservative you're probably thinking of is the New York Post.

 

[Macho Madness]

dude this campaign is flailing around as it dies. I mean all movements do but still. Disappointing that our side is doing this

It's kind of reminding me of when McCain really flamed out in 08 after Palin was brought in. The rhetoric was built up too much and it got out of his hands to where people were calling Obama unAmerican and a Muslim.

Obviously it's not that bad but it reminds me of it. There's only so many times where you can imply something about your opponent before your supporters take it too far.

 

[ApharmdX]

I would have issue with someone calling Scott Walker a corporate whore. Those types of words do not help your cause, no matter what it is. They're too charged. They're too weighted. You don't need to go there. If a campaign does, they get to defend every single connotation. It's even worse when it's levied at a female opponent.

Bernie, eventually, did the right thing. His wife should have had her talking points before she went on the teevee. If his supporters want to keep making this a thing, the media will happily hold onto it. They need to learn to let shit die and not freaking try and die on every single hill they come across.

I admire your consistency, but other politicians have been at the receiving end of that word by opponents and pundits in the past. Personally I wouldn't use it towards a female politician (too loaded in that context!) but the word itself doesn't bother me. It's a powerful indictment of someone who has surrendered any principles. Sometimes we need strong language to make these kind of indictments.

Bernie did walk it back, which was the right move here.

 

[Iolo]

Nothing, but there's still a lot of meat on that bone for the GE. It'll take a thick skin to get through it, even compared to 2008 and 2012, I'm betting. This kind of comment is child's play.

Sure, and Hillary has the thickest skin, no one is worried about how she can handle the maelstrom as we have decades of prior art.

But Bernie flips out after a relatively milquetoast interview (sorry, "inquisition"), so I don't know how he would handle the actual pressures of a general.

 

[BotoxAgent]

Hehehehehehehe

Daily News are whores, confirmed.

 

[Macho Madness]

Honestly I want to know what Claire McCaskill thinks about this because I know there's a lady who doesn't take any shit and would call that out

 

[User 463088]

I highly doubt that.

Perhaps you're encountering misogyny from some Bernie supporters because their opponent-Candidate is a women and not because of their own campaign's rhetoric? Do you think there was less gendered hatred from the "Obama-boys"? Have you not encountered extreme misogyny in Clinton-criticism long before Bernie was even on the national stage?

Have you never encountered anti-semitism or ageism in online Bernie-criticism? I have. I don't think it's because of anything Clinton has said.

The simple reality is that very many people in the United States hate Hillary Clinton. Very many people in the United States are also very sexist. The unfortunate reality is that there is an intersection of these two, large groups.

Bernie's campaign was just hit hard over calling Hillary unqualified. A lot of people saw some sexist undertones in that. When Bernie told Hillary not to "yell" about gun violence, a lot of people, like my fairly intelligent mother immediately heard that as a phrase with sexist undertones. Bernie's demeanor and his "Excuse me, I'm talking" shit was, optically, terrible. If he wagged that finger in my face, I'd tell him where he could go put it, to be frank. Some of the comments Killer Mike made were incredibly tone deaf. This comment, again, incredibly tone deaf.

So, no. I don't think Bernie is sexist, but I think he's surrounded himself with people who are just fucking stupid as hell. Tone and optics are important, and his campaign continually manages to step both feet firmly in it.

 

[Adaren]

It's a powerful indictment of someone who has surrendered any principles.

They've surrendered any principles. Just like a woman who has sex a lot.

"Sellout", "shill", "hypocrite", and a dozen other words all would have gotten his message across without the sexist rhetoric.

 

[royalan]

This is hilarious. There's no defense of the word whore here.

 

[Fenderputty]

Not going to fight this here, but the email stuff is far from fictitious. I don't think it'll be a huge issue in the GE, as I think a lot of people don't understand why it's such a big deal, but it is. Hillary should escape indictment here, though, by the virtue of unclear/poorly written policy. It's worrisome when you're talking about putting someone in charge of national security with that kind of judgment.

This reads to me like that, "I don't know if you know Japanese culture ..." post.

 

[APF]

In order to utilize the word whore as a derogatory you have to accept a certain perspective towards the morality of sex work (or just sexual autonomy) and what is a historically female occupation. The idea that it's not inherently sexist because you mean to direct that perspective towards someone's political or economic policies is neatly avoiding the point.

 

[Plumbob]

Whenever I hear the word I just think of Frank from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia saying "I'm gonna make this WHORE my wife"

 

[CCS]

ESTABLISHMENT ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE SUPERDELEGATES

 

[StopMakingSense]

Honestly the sexist aspect of the "whores" line doesn't bother me all that much, it's just a crystallization of the balkanization of Bernie's supporters and the weird litmus-test progressivism they are turning to.

And it's funny you hear a lot of Bernie fans saying how they "don't even know anybody who is voting for Hillary!" Yeah, no shit, I would love to go YASS QUEEN to my hearts content on FB, but I would be fucking pilloried by my Bernie-fan friends, of which there are a ton, so I just keep quiet and roll my eyes at every fucking Bernie meme they post.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Bernie's campaign was just hit hard over calling Hillary unqualified. A lot of people saw some sexist undertones in that. When Bernie told Hillary not to "yell" about gun violence, a lot of people, like my fairly intelligent mother immediately heard that as a phrase with sexist undertones. Bernie's demeanor and his "Excuse me, I'm talking" shit was, optically, terrible. If he wagged that finger in my face, I'd tell him where he could go put it, to be frank. Some of the comments Killer Mike made were incredibly tone deaf. This comment, again, incredibly tone deaf.

So, no. I don't think Bernie is sexist, but I think he's surrounded himself with people who are just fucking stupid as hell. Tone and optics are important, and his campaign continually manages to step both feet firmly in it.

People might see a sexist undertone in a lot of places. That doesn't mean that what was said was necessarily sexist. The 'qualifications' comment and "excuse me I'm talking" are striking me right now as highly, highly questionable things for someone to consider sexists in any way given the context in which they were said. I respectfully disagree, Adam.

ESTABLISHMENT ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE SUPERDELEGATES

You know, as much of a fan as I am of the "fuck you, establishment" narrative, it's gotta be the wackiest political tactic of this decade to expect the majority of superdelegates to flop to Bernie fucking Sanders. Even if he somehow won the popular vote in some alternate reality, I still don't see most supers changing. You can't shit in the democrat's cereal and expect them to just eat it, dude.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I really hope Supers come up tonight in a question for Bernie and Hillary points out that Bernie is a Super Delegate.

And he can come back with "but Bill is one" which she replies "but he said he'd pledge to you if you got the popular vote, will you pledge your vote to me if I win the popular vote?"

He's been whining about Supers, he should abstain from using his Super vote if he hates the system so much.

People might see a sexist undertone in a lot of places. That doesn't mean that what was said was necessarily sexist. The 'qualifications' comment and "excuse me I'm talking" are striking me right now as highly, highly questionable things for someone to consider sexists in any way given the context in which they were said. I respectfully disagree, Adam.

Why calling Hillary unqualified can be seen as sexist

 

[StopMakingSense]

I really hope Supers come up tonight in a question for Bernie and Hillary points out that Bernie is a Super Delegate.

This has a real "Otto is a Palindrome" feel to it.

(I so just dated myself)

Spoiler

FUUUUUUUUCK OTTO

 

[dramatis]

Most guys don't think certain words or phrases are 'necessarily sexist' primarily because they've normalized the words into their vocabulary—they don't have to consider the words sexist either, because they're male. But ultimately 'bitch' and 'whore' and the likes will have the unconscious sexist aspect in it regardless of context.

 

[pigeon]

I admire your consistency, but other politicians have been at the receiving end of that word by opponents and pundits in the past. Personally I wouldn't use it towards a female politician (too loaded in that context!) but the word itself doesn't bother me. It's a powerful indictment of someone who has surrendered any principles. Sometimes we need strong language to make these kind of indictments.

Bernie did walk it back, which was the right move here.

I don't really understand why you think anybody should give a shit about whether you personally are okay with the word "whore." This is not a social club, we're talking about the actual effects vocabulary choices have on reifying the patriarchy.

The word "whore" is as closely tied up with a patriarchal, power-focused understanding of sexuality as any other word in the entire English language. You can't use it as a derogatory without implicitly buying into that structure and using it as a weapon, which necessarily empowers it and makes you part of it.

If you think that it's okay to call women (or any people) whores if you just feel strongly enough about the choices they've made then you think that the patriarchy is awesome and sexism is great inasmuch as they give you powerful weapons to use to attack your opponents. That doesn't make you sexist, necessarily, but it makes you a product of your upbringing.

 

[Iolo]

PROGRESSIVES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ TAKE MY LITMUS TEST

 

[CCS]

I don't really understand why you think anybody should give a shit about whether you personally are okay with the word "whore." This is not a social club, we're talking about the actual effects vocabulary choices have on reifying the patriarchy.

The word "whore" is as closely tied up with a patriarchal, power-focused understanding of sexuality as any other word in the entire English language. You can't use it as a derogatory without implicitly buying into that structure and using it as a weapon, which necessarily empowers it and makes you part of it.

If you think that it's okay to call women (or any people) whores if you just feel strongly enough about the choices they've made then you think that the patriarchy is awesome and sexism is great inasmuch as they give you powerful weapons to use to attack your opponents. That doesn't make you sexist, necessarily, but it makes you a product of your upbringing.

This is a good post.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

PROGRESSIVES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ TAKE MY LITMUS TEST

Spoiler

That conveniently ignores gun control

 

[Cesare Borgia]

The message has already been sent and received. Sanders doesn't have to call anyone a whore, just as Trump doesn't have to cosign the KKK: the supporters already believe he has validated the message.

I still don't think Sanders has done anything truly damaging, nor do I feel his fervent supporters matter, but boy this is getting embarrassing at a time when I'd prefer that word to only apply to what's going on with republican primary politics.

From what I've heard there's some pressure on Obama to endorse after the California primary.

 

[Macho Madness]

HILLARY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE Y2KEV TAX CUT

 

[APF]

A somewhat tangential / somewhat relevant blast-from-the past:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/08/msnbc-reporter-begrudging_n_85706.html

 

[Holmes]

I mean, I'm 100% unsurprised that as soon as the conversation is about whether it's okay to call a woman a whore all the pro-misogyny tactics came out to play and the thread suddenly turned into a Gaming-side thread.* That's just how the patriarchy works.

*sips tea that I stole from melkr*

 

[Macho Madness]

 

[Prodigal Son]

Why calling Hillary unqualified can be seen as sexist

No. As Bernie has clarified, she clearly has the resume and clearly has the credentials. "Qualified" referenced her judgement, as was made incredibly, painfully obvious by virtually everything he said after the word 'unqualified.'

Gendered attacks should never be acceptable. Keeping that in mind, however, Hillary can and should be criticized just as any other male candidate should be. Saying she has poor judgement isn't sexist. I'd argue it's just reality. That's besides the point though, of course.