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[Spoiled Milk]

It would be a very Clinton solution: policy wonkish sleight of hand that most people won't follow.

This is a double-edged sword. See, like I said, the optics of offering $15 as opposed to $12.50 will still alienate the people who don't want $15, and they won't really care about the timeframe difference. If she tries to explain this to center voters, she's basically admitting to the left that she tried to fuck them.

 

[Suikoguy]

I think she'll more or less accept it, but just increase the time-frame. If it was $15 by 2024 (instead of 2020 as per Sanders), and we assume that inflation will average 1.5% between now and then and productivity growth 1%, both of which are fairly pessimistic assumptions, then in real terms, that's the same as $12.29 in present value, which isn't hugely different to Clinton's present offer. It would be a very Clinton solution: policy wonkish sleight of hand that most people won't follow. She's also the sort of person who is probably already mentally preparing for the 2020 elections, and something like this means she can say "we have to defend this legislation so it can reach where it needs to be".

That's really fair and a good point.

This is a double-edged sword. See, like I said, the optics of offering $15 as opposed to $12.50 will still alienate the people who don't want $15, and they won't really care about the timeframe difference. If she tries to explain this to center voters, she's basically admitting to the left that she tried to fuck them.

And that's the other end of the argument. This is some good stuff.

 

[Suikoguy]

To move on from Huckster's immeasurable amount of shame, this was posted on r/enoughsandersspam

http://fecthebern.org/

Holy shit, that's getting into territory that could very well translate into debt.
What happens when he can't pay back illegal and over donations?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The "who died and made you" etc. argument is really damn tedious. There are lots of people who think the Democrats are insufficiently progressive. They are voting for the candidate that is saying that. Sanders isn't the Ultimate Final Arbiter of Real Progressivism or whatever, but he happens to be the most prominent person pointing this out. Perhaps if the Democratic Party had some actual young talent willing to try and move the Democrats in the right direction, they'd be in this position instead, but instead the Democrats are facing a dearth of talent and instead choosing to rerun the losing candidate from last time around, so the disaffected have to make do with Sanders.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Basically, Barney's reading of him here (Fake Edit: if it's real), sticks.

That isn't his real response - the real one was considerably more restrained.

Frank brushed off the Sanders camp's charges.

"It is inconceivable to me that anything could come before that committee that will affect who the nominee is," Frank said. "I think what you have here is this: Sanders is losing to Hillary Clinton because she is getting many more votes and many more pledged delegates. Some of [the Sanders supporters] are trying to lay the claim that he's being unfairly deprived of this."

Asked what he thought Sanders' endgame goal was, Frank said it might be to suggest he was robbed of the nomination.

"I hope it is not to lay the basis for an inaccurate claim that he was unfairly denied the nomination, and I do see some elements of this," Frank said. "We really had two nomination contests this year. Bernie Sanders is the nominee of the caucuses; Hillary Clinton is the nominee of the primaries, which are more Democratic."

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is a double-edged sword. See, like I said, the optics of offering $15 as opposed to $12.50 will still alienate the people who don't want $15, and they won't really care about the timeframe difference. If she tries to explain this to center voters, she's basically admitting to the left that she tried to fuck them.

Sure, but I'm not really sure what her other alternatives are. It would be absolutely terrible PR for her if even a small faction of her delegates mutinied - $15 is really popular among the Democratic base, even Clinton supporters.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Holy shit, that's getting into territory that could very well translate into debt.
What happens when he can't pay back illegal and over donations?

Sanders Cash on Hand at the end of April was $5,796,719. I don't know how much he raised or spent in May but I think we can expect his cash on hand to be pretty similar. I don't think it will be hard for him to just keep $3mil around since he pulls in about 30mil every month.

 

[nature boy]

Politico has a great interview with two members of creative team involved in the 1964 Daisy Ad:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...mp-hillary-clinton-political-ads-daisy-213925

I would love to see a Daisy-like ad against Trump.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Sure, but I'm not really sure what her other alternatives are. It would be absolutely terrible PR for her if even a small faction of her delegates mutinied - $15 is really popular among the Democratic base, even Clinton supporters.

She'll sell them on $12.50 and they'll just accept it. They already made this choice by voting for her during the primaries. If $15 was that important to them, Bernie would have won this election.

 

[royalan]

The "who died and made you" etc. argument is really damn tedious. There are lots of people who think the Democrats are insufficiently progressive. They are voting for the candidate that is saying that. Sanders isn't the Ultimate Final Arbiter of Real Progressivism or whatever, but he happens to be the most prominent person pointing this out. Perhaps if the Democratic Party had some actual young talent willing to try and move the Democrats in the right direction, they'd be in this position instead, but instead the Democrats are facing a dearth of talent and instead choosing to rerun the losing candidate from last time around, so the disaffected have to make do with Sanders.

I don't disagree with any of this, but that isn't the point.

If this fake rebuttal had been real, it would have been coming from one of the most progressive congressmen we've ever had. A man with a real record of significant influence. Bernie couldn't shield himself with his narrow definition of what progressiveness is, especially when he's used his definition to attack other progressive politicians and entities throughout his campaign.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I don't disagree with any of this, but that isn't the point.

If this fake rebuttal had been real, it would have been coming from one of the most progressive congressmen we've ever had. A man with a real record of significant influence. Bernie couldn't shield himself with his narrow definition of what progressiveness is, especially when he's used his definition to attack other progressive politicians and entities throughout his campaign.

No, that definitely *was* the point I was making. That response (which thankfully was fake) was dreadful precisely because it didn't address the point. It could have come from Clement Attlee himself, it wouldn't have removed the fact that the argument in and of itself did not meet the criticism levied at it.

 

[eBay Huckster]

I'd be impressed if it came from Clement Attlee considering he's been dead for 50 years

 

[Spoiled Milk]

I'd be impressed if it came from Clement Attlee considering he's been dead for 50 years

You'd be so impressed that you'd post it without source checking.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I'd be impressed if it came from Clement Attlee considering he's been dead for 50 years

No shit, Sherlock.

 

[eBay Huckster]

You'd be so impressed that you'd post it without source checking.

Eh, I'd only be that impressed if it was Lincoln.

 

[royalan]

No, that definitely *was* the point I was making. That response (which thankfully was fake) was dreadful precisely because it didn't address the point. It could have come from Clement Attlee himself, it wouldn't have removed the fact that the argument in and of itself did not meet the criticism levied at it.

Can you point me to a time where Bernie Sanders made this specific argument about his brand of progressivism? Because this seems more like your argument than his.

 

[User 463088]

To move on from Huckster's immeasurable amount of shame, this was posted on r/enoughsandersspam

http://fecthebern.org/

Hehehe. Bernie has lost a ton of goodwill this week. Damn.

 

[Crocodile]

The "who died and made you" etc. argument is really damn tedious. There are lots of people who think the Democrats are insufficiently progressive. They are voting for the candidate that is saying that. Sanders isn't the Ultimate Final Arbiter of Real Progressivism or whatever, but he happens to be the most prominent person pointing this out. Perhaps if the Democratic Party had some actual young talent willing to try and move the Democrats in the right direction, they'd be in this position instead, but instead the Democrats are facing a dearth of talent and instead choosing to rerun the losing candidate from last time around, so the disaffected have to make do with Sanders.

I think the argument is fair when so often he insinuates he's the only one who cares about "issue X" (which often isn't true). I'd also argue several of his positions aren't sufficiently tempered by

-can this legislation actually get passed?
-is the left-most stance on a position actually the best or most helpful to people?
-do enough people actually want this?
-is this nuanced enough to account for the complexities of the political/economic/etc. reality of America?

just because some people think the Democrats aren't progressive enough in certain respects doesn't mean their ideas are good or feasible (there is a reason the Green Party is looked down upon). They can be but you absolutely can't make that assumption.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Can you point me to a time where Bernie Sanders made this specific argument about his brand of progressivism? Because this seems more like your argument than his.

Whaaa? Like, this was the entire point of his campaign from the start! As a random example for his website:

The issue of wealth and income inequality is the great moral issue of our time, it is the great economic issue of our time, and it is the great political issue of our time.

He *constantly* talks about income inequality, to the point that everyone in this thread calls him out for reusing stump speeches. Like, it should be obvious that when he criticizes whichever person for not being sufficiently progressive, he's looking through an economic lens. I don't see how you could possibly have not picked that up at this point.

 

[Paskil]

PoliGAF is a mess.

 

[kirblar]

You know who also looks at things only through an Economic lens while paying lip service to Social issues? Libertarians.

It's not an accident that they're also largely straight white men.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Libertarians remind me of me, in that many of them don't bother with things like fact checking.

 

[royalan]

Whaaa? Like, this was the entire point of his campaign from the start! As a random example for his website:



He *constantly* talks about income inequality, to the point that everyone in this thread calls him out for reusing stump speeches. Like, it should be obvious that when he criticizes whichever person for not being sufficiently progressive, he's looking through an economic lens. I don't see how you could possibly have not picked that up at this point.

No, I did. I was just wondering if there was a reason you ignored this part of my post where I addressed that:

Bernie's critique of the Democratic party really has been that he doesn't view them as progressive enough, full stop. Money is usually the lenses by which he focuses his argument, but even then it's often a flimsy excuse used to attack people who he's perceived to have slighted him (see: calling a group of HIV Activists "shills for Big Pharma" for not endorsing him), nor has it stopped him from attacking other politicians/entities for their held social views. And let's not forget that Bernie has suggested that Hillary is not a real progressive for a host of reasons throughout his campaign.

 

[Paskil]

You know who also looks at things only through an Economic lens? Libertarians.

It's not an accident that they're also largely straight white men.

Bizarro Bernie Sanders is a Libertarian in the Negative Zone.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

You know who also looks at things only through an Economic lens while paying lip service to Social issues? Libertarians.

It's not an accident that they're also largely straight white men.

Thank you for your valuable generalization that is definitely true and has also not been made before at all in this thread. Here in PoliGAF, Crab welcomes all contributions, regardless of quality.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Here in PoliGAF, Crab welcomes all contributions, regardless of quality.

oh thank god

In less fake news, NBC finds that Clinton would be up by 3 to 5 more points in their last poll (and a couple others) with 70% of Sanders supporters

 

[Deleted member 231381]

No, I did. I was just wondering if there was a reason you ignored this part of my post where I addressed that:

I didn't think it was especially relevant to my main point. I think just as much as the rest of you the HIV activist thing was utter stupidity; but the rest of your posts is things I agree with Sanders over, at least in spirit. I mean, I wouldn't say Clinton is "not a real progressive" because who the fuck knows what a real progressive is, but I'd certainly say she's not sufficiently progressive given the amount of political capital available to her and the Democratic party. If I was campaigning against Clinton, I'd be pretty blunt about that as well.

I mean, not being American I'd have other problems, but Australia is basically little America these days and Britain is America's frustrated stepfather, so the familial relation is strong enough I ought to get away with it. I'm plausibly more American than Cruz.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Looks like Trump is listing all of his campaign employees as consultants to avoid payroll taxes, lol.

 

[eBay Huckster]

and speaking of campaigning against clinton, it would appear that huffpost just barely avoided a libel lawsuit from publishing another one of their writers' indictment fantasies

e: thanks to macho for the link to the actual archive.is page. that site is a goddamn mess.

 

[Macho Madness]

A HuffPost blogger posted this earlier today: https://archive.is/bERJ6

HuffPost has since removed it but if you notice, he plugs his movie at the bottom. HuffPost allowed this guy to post anti-Clinton fan fiction to plug his movie.

 

[shinra-bansho]

His lens is myopic. The lens of only viewing social progress is too.

But ultimately 1) a poor black or hispanic person will typically be less well off than the poor white person, women will earn less than men, and 2) ethnic, racial, gender etc minorities face a host of issues entirely separated from income.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

His lens is myopic. The lens of only viewing social progress is too.

But ultimately 1) a poor black or hispanic person will typically be less well off than the poor white person, women will earn less than men, and 2) ethnic, racial, gender etc minorities face a host of issues entirely separated from income.

Yes. I don't disagree with either 1) or 2); I don't think Sanders does either.

 

[User 463088]

PoliGAF is a mess.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

oh thank god

In less fake news, NBC finds that Clinton would be up by 3 to 5 more points in their last poll (and a couple others) with 70% of Sanders supporters

Bernie, you are literally going to murder the panicky Dem consultant class by staying the race. They will all have drunk themselves to death if you don't drop out soon and have the polls start showing an 8 point lead for Hillary.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Bernie, you are literally going to murder the panicky Dem consultant class by staying the race. They will all have drunk themselves to death if you don't drop out soon and have the polls start showing an 8 point lead for Hillary.

Yet more reason for him to stay in until the convention.

 

[eBay Huckster]

And for the record that's 8-9 points before an Obama endorsement, before the FBI indicts the entire GOP House caucus in a surprise move, and before Jesus Himself descends from the skies

Spoiler

to make fun of me for not fact checking

 

[shinra-bansho]

Yes. I don't disagree with either 1) or 2); I don't think Sanders does either.

I don't think any of those groups particular issues are really a priority to him at all outside of his retro grumpy socialism! Big _____! worldview. Fixing those problems is incidental. Which is part of why he couldn't build a coalition to win.

 

[kirblar]

Yes. I don't disagree with either 1) or 2); I don't think Sanders does either.

His "it's all about economics" on the campaign trail would disagree.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Bill Kristol has been wrong for 2yrs-an embarrassed loser, but if the GOP can't control their own, then they are not a party. Be tough, R's!

Trump is legit shook by a random Bill Kristol tweet.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/737054226833149952

 

[mo60]

oh thank god

In less fake news, NBC finds that Clinton would be up by 3 to 5 more points in their last poll (and a couple others) with 70% of Sanders supporters

My dream would be for hilary to be up 15% over trump but that's unlikely. I would be happy if she's beating trump by at least 10%.

 

[User 463088]

And for the record that's 8-9 points before an Obama endorsement, before the FBI indicts the entire GOP House caucus in a surprise move, and before Jesus Himself descends from the skies

Spoiler

to make fun of me for not fact checking

Don't feel bad for nto fact checking. Fact checking is for losers. If you feel bad, I'll make you a drink.

But, seriously, I still think this is a high point for Trump. Next week, her numbers will start coming back in line with what we expect.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I don't think any of those groups particular issues are really a priority to him at all outside of his retro grumpy socialism! Big _____! worldview. Fixing those problems is incidental.

I wouldn't say incidental. They're important to him. Aspects of it are of less priority, yes, but then, I think that's an entirely legitimate position. For example, about 2.5% of white Americans over the age of 25 are on minimum wage. For black Americans, that figure is just over 5% - relatively twice as many. An increase in the minimum wage is therefore an increase in the salary of one in twenty black Americans. That's hugely significant in terms of improving quality of life; it's probably more significant than (as a random example) the Ivy League institutions increasing their uptake of minority students/stronger positive discrimination laws. If I had sufficient political capital to do one or the other, I would do the first, immediately. Calling the minimum wage an "economic issue" and posing that as dichotomous to issues of racial justice, and therefore people concerned with raising the minimum wage as somehow unconcerned with racial justice, is a gross distortion - in this case, they are intrinsically related and in fact an increase in the minimum wage is probably one of the most significant policies one could do that is both politically feasible and would have immediate impact on the quality of life of the average black American.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

If dummy Bill Kristol actually does get a spoiler to run as an Independent, say good bye to the Supreme Court!

Trump is terrified by a random Kristol tweet and won't stop tweeting.

 

[Suikoguy]

Don't feel bad for nto fact checking. Fact checking is for losers. If you feel bad, I'll make you a drink.

But, seriously, I still think this is a high point for Trump. Next week, her numbers will start coming back in line with what we expect.

Yeah, that would be some punishment.

 

[eBay Huckster]

I actually forget what exactly was in what I was drinking last night, but

1) it definitely has vodka and at least twice as much tequila in it,
2) it's very red and was called "turbo satan", and
3) it tastes weirdly like lemon iced tea

(also unfortunately I can't get Bayou spiced rum in time for this upcoming weekend, which blows ass, because mixing that shit with Canada Dry gives me a drink that tastes even more weirdly like butterscotch.

...butter rum? basically drinking it makes me feel like a wizard)

 

[i_am_ben]

Yeah, that would be some punishment.

Honestly, how could mayonnaise and margarine flavoured vodka be construed as a punishment?

 

[HylianTom]

Trump is terrified by a random Kristol tweet and won't stop tweeting.

This is delicious. The prospect of Kristol actually delivering a candidate has gotten under his skin.

 

[User 463088]

Yeah, that would be some punishment.

When Queen reigns, you'll be the first to feel her wrath.

I actually forget what exactly was in what I was drinking last night, but

1) it definitely has vodka and at least twice as much tequila in it,
2) it's very red and was called "turbo satan", and
3) it tastes weirdly like lemon iced tea

(also unfortunately I can't get Bayou spiced rum in time for this upcoming weekend, which blows ass, because mixing that shit with Canada Dry gives me a drink that tastes even more weirdly like butterscotch.

...butter rum? basically drinking it makes me feel like a wizard)

I don't like rum. It makes me feel icky. It's too heavy.

Honestly, how could mayonnaise and margarine flavoured vodka be construed as a punishment?

They don't make that. Do theyI? Cause it might pair well with Sunny Delight or Tang. I had some moonshine from West Virginia today. Tasted like Apple pie. Like 100 proof. Was goooood.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Sweet rums are much too heavy to be nice, but a good dry rum served neat can be excellent.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Yeah, that would be some punishment.

Marshmallow and cherry vodka, diet Dr. Pepper and a splash of dishwasher.