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PoliGAF 2016 |OT6| Delete your accounts
- Thread starter Spoiled Milk
- Start date
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I don't come here to be judged.
Now THAT'S poor form.
I'm talking about the people who are screaming "Bernie!" while surrounding Trump supporters. I don't know what kind of suspicious tangent you just went down.
jack_package_200
Banned
A Shaun King article is the top post on r/politics.
Fucking lol
Fucking lol
User 463088
Banned
Well, firstly, I think the point about Latino's in your statement is not okay. That's not what anyone is saying at all, and isn't conductive to the issue we're talking about.
When people are chanting "Bernie! Bernie! Bernie!' while engaging in violence/shitty behavior, Bernie has to take ownership of some of this. Is he to blame for people making bad choices? No. Not what I'm saying.
However, Bernie's campaign has done a terrible job of attempting to defuse these types of situations. I believe, deeply, that a candidate has some responsibility for the behavior of their supporters. Can we really say, with a straight face, that Bernie's team has done everything within their power to dissuade people from making threats?
Because, I don't believe he has. Not at all. The behavior of some (please read: SOME, not all) Bernie supporters has been just deplorable. The online attacks, the threats towards superdelegates, the actions at Trump rallies, the Nevada caucuses, the heckling at other caucus events...it's not getting better.
I think this is something we may just have to disagree on.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
No one ever covered this comment, lol.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-trump-wrong-hillary-clinton-wants-release-a/
Shitty protests tonight.
We cannot know who they support. They could just like the sound of the word "Bernie".
I'd be ok if Bernie just came out with a statement like Hillary did that violence is not acceptable (provided he doesn't qualify it with a "but").
They were saying "burn he, burn he, burn he." You know, set the guy on fire.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-imprisoned/index.html
Best he could do?
Sad.
For the record, I'm with NYC that y'all take this blame game way too far.
Best he could do?
Sad.
For the record, I'm with NYC that y'all take this blame game way too far.
VendettaRed07
Member
But seriously imagine this scenario
on June 7th.. Hillary "Clinches" the majority after New Jersey with the super delegates.. Then she wins California as well..and then..
that's it. No more "states".. there's really no big "hope" or thing to look forward to. I feel like that will force Sanders to drop out.
He's said he'll go all the way to the convention but if he comes away with literally nothing on Tuesday that he can even spin as a positive I don't think he will.
on June 7th.. Hillary "Clinches" the majority after New Jersey with the super delegates.. Then she wins California as well..and then..
that's it. No more "states".. there's really no big "hope" or thing to look forward to. I feel like that will force Sanders to drop out.
He's said he'll go all the way to the convention but if he comes away with literally nothing on Tuesday that he can even spin as a positive I don't think he will.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Well, firstly, I think the point about Latino's in your statement is not okay. That's not what anyone is saying at all, and isn't conductive to the issue we're talking about.
When people are chanting "Bernie! Bernie! Bernie!' while engaging in violence/shitty behavior, Bernie has to take ownership of some of this. Is he to blame for people making bad choices? No. Not what I'm saying.
However, Bernie's campaign has done a terrible job of attempting to defuse these types of situations. I believe, deeply, that a candidate has some responsibility for the behavior of their supporters. Can we really say, with a straight face, that Bernie's team has done everything within their power to dissuade people from making threats?
Because, I don't believe he has. Not at all. The behavior of some (please read: SOME, not all) Bernie supporters has been just deplorable. The online attacks, the threats towards superdelegates, the actions at Trump rallies, the Nevada caucuses, the heckling at other caucus events...it's not getting better.
I think this is something we may just have to disagree on.
I think its kinda disingenuous to deny who is in the videos. As if that's equivalent to blaming latinos in general. My point was this double sided use of latinos it was perhaps worded poorly. Its to deflate this sense of unearned moral superiority that I think as come over PolifGaf recently.
And yes, we can condemn behavior. I just don't like pretending this is only a problem with sanders and "his people." and that sanders is some how to blame for this violence. He's never once called for anything like this. His rigged comments and beating someone up are totally different
Since they are their own people....maybe? lol.
I doubt Bill and Trump do after the the rapist stuff.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
Maybe on Fox News.
It wasn't the greatest demonstration of civility, but then again I wouldn't expect civility when KKK supporters are involved so I can't expect it when Trump supporters are involved either. I'm going to go out of a limb and assume there will be far more violence coming from Trump supporters than Hillary supporters between now and November...and that tonight's events don't really matter in the grand scheme of things, outside of further embarrassing republican leaning supporters (specifically republican leaning women) about Trump.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
W. and Slick Willy are very good friends. I think George called up Bill at least twice a year.
Despite what people think, you can be friends with people you disagree with politically.
So wait.
Two months ago, when it was Trump's supporters getting violent, and everyone but FOX News, including this thread, was calling for Trump to take ownership of the actions of his supporters egged on by his rhetoric...I don't remember anybody in here saying we were taking the "Trump blame" too far.
This isn't about blame. I'm watching this protest genuinely afraid that someone is a trampling or one punch too many away from being killed. And folks are shouting out Bernie's name. The fact is Bernie has been using irresponsible language this entire primary. He's responsible for some of this.
Show me hordes of violent Clinton supporters and Clinton indirectly supporting them and I'd say the same thing.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
User 463088
Banned
You're the only one who brought up the ethnicity of people in the video, though. I just don't feel that has anything to do with what we're talking about. Maybe that's just my read on it.
We're talking about reports of people chanting "Bernie" while they're doing this stupid stuff.. From nothing more than an electoral perspective, that shit is toxic, and Bernie's team has done a crap job at even trying to deescalate these situations. That's the entirety of my point. This isn't like the first time something like this has happened.
Did people not call out Trump for the violence at his rallies, where his supporters attacked people? Like I said, I don't think Bernie is entirely to blame for this at all. I think he gets swallowed up into these issues for a ton of reasons.
My point is to pretend that Bernie's campaign is completely without blame of any kind for some of this behavior just doesn't ring true for me. I don't feel, personally, that they've done enough to try and curtail the behavior of some of their supporters. That's all.
And, believe me, you've seen the shit I eat and drink. I don't think I'm morally superior to anyone
User 463088
Banned
Good, and they didn't even put a "but" in there.
I think there is a difference between Trump actively inciting violence and Bernie passively failing to denounce it at Nevada, yes.
I'm not removing all context or blame from Sanders' campaign rhetoric -- I was here on record saying that the "but" in the post-Nevada statement was probably his worse behavior in this election -- but I don't think that's enough to place these violent protests squarely on his shoulders. Trump's violent and racist rhetoric is more likely to be the main cause, IMO.
User 463088
Banned
I've never understood how anarchy is supposed to work. It just seems like there are no rules.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
You're the only one who brought up the ethnicity of people in the video, though. I just don't feel that has anything to do with what we're talking about. Maybe that's just my read on it.
We're talking about reports of people chanting "Bernie" while they're doing this stupid stuff.. From nothing more than an electoral perspective, that shit is toxic, and Bernie's team has done a crap job at even trying to deescalate these situations. That's the entirety of my point. This isn't like the first time something like this has happened.
Did people not call out Trump for the violence at his rallies, where his supporters attacked people? Like I said, I don't think Bernie is entirely to blame for this at all. I think he gets swallowed up into these issues for a ton of reasons.
My point is to pretend that Bernie's campaign is completely without blame of any kind for some of this behavior just doesn't ring true for me. I don't feel, personally, that they've done enough to try and curtail the behavior of some of their supporters. That's all.
And, believe me, you've seen the shit I eat and drink. I don't think I'm morally superior to anyone
My point wasn't really about the ethnicity but the issue with claiming people and then holding them at arms length with the disappoint you. We've had a lot of talk in here about how latinos are def. pro clinton but when we see images like these they're cast aside as just "bernie supporters." It just rubbed me the wrong way. Like I said it probably came off poorly, but the criticism was not at them but the people who see color than magically don't
That was the point I was making, the selective color blindness
No rules means everyone can do whatever they want.
Surely that leads to the best outcome.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
The violence shouldn't fly at all. There needs to be protests tho. At every Trump rally, let every single person going to them be seen by their community going in there.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
I'm on nycmetsfan's side, here, and I don't think the mention of latinos is irrelevant. Maybe in general Bernie Sanders has not adequately addressed his supporters demonstrating horrible, poor behavior toward establishment Democrats, convention organizers and superdelegates (my dad said the other day that the convention organizer in Nevada literally deserved the death threats she got) but the Trump protests have always primarily been about latin-american pride and don't have really anything to do with Bernie. Even if Bernie Sanders wasn't running there would have been this kind of violence in San Jose because the city is the way it is.
Well he can't use those words to explain everything away especially his potential loss in November
User 463088
Banned
That's fair, but I don't think that was anyone's intention, least of all mine. I think we're kind of saying the same thing, just in a slightly different way. I was referring to the people who were doing this stuff while chanting Bernie's name. That stuff is toxic, and it fuels Trump. It's so stupid on so many levels.
Yep. Trump's the kind of candidate that will increase protests as we saw in the past.I do wish Bernie spoke out against some of his supporters behaviour more.
User 463088
Banned
That's the only point I was getting at.
Especially when he's at 80% approval rating among Sanders supporters!
Again, what I do in my spare time....
Lies, we know you're a bottom
obama used his power to get hillary off. hillary and obama are both crooks. this will likely be what he goes with once obama starts stumping for hillary.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I agree completely
I just think we should also be aware of how we label people who aren't already clinton supporters. That's where I was directing most of my criticism, this idea that latino or minority Bernie supporters don't exist.
I believe I talked about this earlier in the week. I just think its no becoming of anyone. I think we can distinguish between bernie and his supporters and why they support them. I've never liked this idea that is minorities vs. whites in the clinton vs. sanders divide and too often I see that insinuated.
I was, crudely, trying to criticize that. with poor results
I think the mistake you're making is thinking that anyone was criticizing these protesters on the basis of their ethnicity. I said this same exact thing about the violence erupting among Trump AND Bernie supporters back when it happened in Chicago, and the protesters were overwhelmingly black.
Violent protests aren't a "Latino thing." That may not be what you're saying, but that is what's underlying what you're saying.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I don't at all think this.
And I'm not saying violent protests are latino or black or anybody's thing.
Again, I was just trying to point out how latinos ethnicity matters when it comes to supporting clinton but when bad behavior strikes they are just "bernie supporters". The criticism is at the labels assigned and them being whelded as weapons by clinton supporters in this kind of absurd "who's got more minorities" game. Again the point was made rather ineligantly
Spoiled Milk
Banned
In San Jose, it is.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Just to be clear. I'm not saying this at all.
Huh?
Well, watch him try!
User 463088
Banned
But, just to be clear...
I don't think anyone was labeling them Bernie supporters because they were acting violently. They were being labeled Bernie supporters because they were, you know, chanting Bernie's name. I feel like that's an important distinction to make.
But, I get your point about using groups as a weapon, but I'm not entirely sure that's what people do, although it may appear that way. When we're talking about groups of voters, it's super easy to fall into that trap. Like, if we say "As a group, gays vote for Hillary" we're not pretending that Bernie has no support among the LGBT community. If we say "Young people vote for Bernie" we're not saying Hillary gets no young votes either. I think it's just a hard and fast rule to talk about demographics when it's convenient. I don't think anyone is trying to weaponize groups against other candidates....except that minorities of all flavors are going to bitch slap Trump back to whatever orange muck he crawled out of.
I live in San Jose and I honestly don't know what you're talking about. How is this city "the way it is?"
I have to be honest and say, although the protests are impolitic and not particularly useful since Trump will lose, I am not unsympathetic with the thought process.
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