True. A better example would actually be Bill's second-term ending in 2000, and Hillary becoming Senator in 2001. Prior to that, though she campaigned as her own person on women's and children's rights, she didn't actually do much in actual politics?
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PoliGAF 2017 |OT1| From Russia with Love
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
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True. A better example would actually be Bill's second-term ending in 2000, and Hillary becoming Senator in 2001. Prior to that, though she campaigned as her own person on women's and children's rights, she didn't actually do much in actual politics?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Actually, I don't support Trudeau (at least, relative to non-Conservative alternatives) for this very reason (well, and several others).
I can get what you're saying, but at the same time, it's a bit much to make such a sweeping generalisation. Disregarding emails, Benghazi and the GOP hating on her, Hillary was the most qualified person running for President pretty much ever. To disregard her because of an appearance of nepotism is massively disrespectful to her, as well as any person who is qualified for a job, but just happens to be related to someone else in the same field or company.
I do think intent matters a lot here, by the way. Running Michelle because she is married to Barack? Stupid, disrespectful and nepotistic. Running Michelle because she's smart, knows her limits, will listen to others whilst making her own valuable judgements, and can unify the States? Not stupid, nor disrespectful.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
#SoCalledPresidentTrump is trending lol
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Hillary was obviously had a great deal of political experience, the most since Bush senior, and she developed a considerable talent in various important roles. Nevertheless, it is entirely reasonable to point out that she might not have held many of these positions or had the opportunity to develop her talents if she hadn't had the personal and social connections, including marriage, that she did. I do not think that Hillary Rodham would have been able to present the same CV Hillary Clinton did it, and it is entirely reasonable to point out the natural advantages she had compared to other potential candidates.
The analogy might be something like CEOs being mostly white. You don't get to be a CEO without having a considerable degree of prior experience and there are some white people who no doubt are incredibly well qualified to become CEOs. Nevertheless, they had an advantage over black candidates who for reasons of discrimination faced barriers to gaining the educational requirements or working experience necessary to develop those qualifications.
I agree Michelle is bright and charismatic. But there are millions of bright and charismatic women who would make incredible Presidents, and at face value, the only criterion separating Michelle from these other incredibly bright and charismatic women is that she happened to be married to Obama. This is not a good basis to select on.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
anyone feel like tackling the white-CEO analogy vs. how a woman gets anywhere near the White House before, say, 2000
BronzeWolf
Banned
this is amazing
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Abe is now tasked with saving the world and it's going to be painful af.
https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/827437876287672320
https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/827437876287672320
BronzeWolf
Banned
Yeah, good luck...
Merkel tried explaining Geneva to the tiny handed tangerine and we've got the muslim ban as a result
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Lee Fang on why calling out racism is bad.
https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/827903543877070849
Good thing the CEO of Breitbart hasn't been the main adviser to the president.
(Hillary spent way too much time in Ohio too)
https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/827903543877070849
Good thing the CEO of Breitbart hasn't been the main adviser to the president.
(Hillary spent way too much time in Ohio too)
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
How have Kelly and Mattis not fucked up this Cheeto dust covered loser yet?
BronzeWolf
Banned
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
More_Badass
Member
Two weeks in, and he's already playing golf
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Regarding dynasties, I have a bit of a mixed feeling. It does feel wrong that people can get elected office by result of who they're related to. I'm not sure that applies to Hillary in particular, though. While obviously being the wife of Bill was a key advantage of hers in getting the positions she had (she was in the New York primary against a nobody, had the name and clout to be picked for SoS) she's enormously talented and qualified otherwise and one of the better defenses is that without her Bill wouldn't have been nearly as successful in the first place. I feel a little guilty here because I like Joe Kennedy because of the good name the Kennedys have in the US but it's not like he's done anything to earn that goodwill.
Comparatively, I can oppose someone like Michelle Obama running for president the same way the George Clooney or Jason Kander suggestions are ridiculous: they have no experience in serious elected office at all and I'd like a president that at least resembles being qualified.
Comparatively, I can oppose someone like Michelle Obama running for president the same way the George Clooney or Jason Kander suggestions are ridiculous: they have no experience in serious elected office at all and I'd like a president that at least resembles being qualified.
RastaMentality
Banned
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/827924171661377536
and Trump proceeded to turn to Twitter to attack the so-called federal judge who blocked it. you're not doing that well, elon.
BronzeWolf
Banned
Orange turd tan fading, need more cancer
Bill Maher and Sam Harris had a nice segment on how idiotic the left has been on Islam yesterday. Yes folks, there is a connection between jihadism and the religion itself. Acknowledging that does not make you a bigot, and pretending it doesn't exist is counterproductive to solving the problem.
BronzeWolf
Banned
JesseEwiak
Member
Of course Harris & Maher would take this moment to kick Muslim's some more. Ignoring the fact they're completely wrong, even if they were right, they have no actual ways to fix things, beyond "stop being Muslim because being religious is dumb - haha magic sky fairy!"
One of the reasons the left isn't writing policy is because they've been completely tone deaf on this topic. We're more than willing to point out the bigotry and hypocrisy in our own political right, but the moment someone calls burkas oppressive, they are shot down as racists.
The left's message should be anti-Saudi Arabia:
- Saudi Arabian oil $$ goes to funding Wahhabism/Salafi Islam that's one step away from Al Queda/ISIS philosophy.
- Saudi Arabia has a highly oppressive government that doesn't respect women's rights or LBGT rights
- Saudis fund various militant groups in proxy wars and kill Shia Muslims in Yemen and elsewhere
- Saudi Arabia's economy is based around exporting oil which is killing our planet and benefits greedy US oil companies/financial companies.
- Saudi Arabian oil $$ goes to funding Wahhabism/Salafi Islam that's one step away from Al Queda/ISIS philosophy.
- Saudi Arabia has a highly oppressive government that doesn't respect women's rights or LBGT rights
- Saudis fund various militant groups in proxy wars and kill Shia Muslims in Yemen and elsewhere
- Saudi Arabia's economy is based around exporting oil which is killing our planet and benefits greedy US oil companies/financial companies.
BronzeWolf
Banned
After the 2 most idiotic weeks on POTUS history the only things that have been done are things that the GOP wanted such as idiotic under-the-scene deregulation.
All of the things Trump wanted and campaigned on such as Wall, Muslim Ban and Obamacare repeal are either overturned or on limbo.
All of the things Trump wanted and campaigned on such as Wall, Muslim Ban and Obamacare repeal are either overturned or on limbo.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I mean, if the first thing someone talked about with regards to Jews in 1935 Germany was that there were actually a lot of Jewish bankers in Germany relative to the Jewish population, I would assume that person was a racist.
What the hell.
The left is pretty anti-Saudi Arabia, tbh. In my circles there's been tons of angst about "Salman's War" in Yemen and the needless suffering of Yemeni civilians prolonged because the Saudi's are chasing Iranian phantoms.
Nobody denies the problem of radical Islam, some of us are just mad that the whole War on Terror has assiduously ignored the sharia-ruled Absolute Monarchy that's most responsible for the propagation of violent Jihad, even as they send their soldiers on nominal anti-AQ/anti-ISIS missions.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Burkas only come up in the context of France doing something really dumb about it. You criticize Burkas being oppressive as much as you can criticize protestant teachings about submissive breeding farm wives being oppressive, but banning it goes directly against a basic liberal principle of letting people choose for themselves what they do with themselves.
And Maher's belief that religion is the root all of the world's problems maybe isn't racist, but that's an extremely niche political view that wouldn't help Democrats at all. In general there is a lot of hatred towards muslims, but the vast majority of that is racism, not religion.
Let's be honest with ourselves - few on the Right really have issues with Islam due to say concerns for women's rights for what I feel should be obvious reasons. It's basically "some extremists who are Muslim are bad, ergo ALL Muslims worldwide should be treated with suspicion and derision". The job of the Left (it should be a bipartisan job honestly but the Right has been derelict in its duties) is to stand up for the underdog. Most concerns about Muslims are borne from fears and feelings and not facts. Many (most?) negative responses to Islam are steeped in racism and religious bigotry. Like what do you want the Left to do in this regard? Not call out nonsense? Not stand up for innocent Muslims who are just as American (or want to be American) as any other decent citizen?
Phil Angelides was chairman of the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission from 2009 to 2011, created by the US Congress to investigate the causes of the crisis. Angelides got to see the impacts up close: He oversaw 700 witness testimonies and public hearings from Miami to Sacramento, while interviewing banks and regulators. Dodd-Frank was passed while he was on the job. He said yesterday that Trumps plans to pull it apart were insane.
In the wake of the financial crisis, millions of families lost their homes. Millions of people lost their jobs. The economy was wrecked and communities across the country were devastated. Big Wall Street banks admitted wrongdoing and paid tens of billions of dollars in fines. And now, with bankers at his side, President Trump begins to rip apart protections put in place to protect Americas families and our economy. Insane.
In the markets, bank stocks have been one of the biggest winners from Trumps election, as investors have anticipated deregulation.
JesseEwiak
Member
The bolded is where your entire argument breaks down, at least in majority Muslim countries or communities where they have a lot clout. We're talking about forcing woman to wear a full body cover so men won't be tempted to fuck them. It's no different than blaming rape victims for dressing too provocatively, an argument liberals are vehemently opposed to.
These women either don't have a choice, or are brainwashed from a young age to believe it's required of them. Anywhere from a quarter to half of all Muslims believe women should be forced to wear them. That's not a "fringe" or "extreme" view, no more than believing abortion is murder is among conservatives here. All I'm saying is that we need to hold Muslims worldwide to the same standard that we hold Christians or conservatives here in the USA.
nature boy
Member
COUNTRY HAS BIGLY PROBLEMS, OBAMA CAN'T PLAY GOLF
I wish Democrats had some epic twitter troll for these occasions.
Not very bright people at the WH.
JesseEwiak
Member
Guess what, you can believe the governments in various Muslims countries are shitty and believe that if woman want to wear whatever religious garments they want in America, that's totally fine. I don't think Amish women are being oppressed because their religion says they have to wear long dresses.
There are plenty of social conservatives who would say society has brainwashed modern women with media that they need to be promiscuous etc.
Cool, when Muslim's try to pass a law mandating the burqa on women, I'll be against it. But, just like I'm not going to say churches can't preach dumb things I disagree with, I'm not going to say Muslim's personal religious beliefs shouldn't be allowed to said as long as it's not dangerous to other people or involves any type of force within the congregation.
The issue isn't the social conservatives believe abortion is murder. The issue is they try to legislate that belief into the law.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I mean, Christians in Russia just legalized a man beating his wife.
... There are many countries which are very fucked up. China murders their religious minorities for their organs. This... doesn't have much to do with great Chinese and Russian Americans in the United States.
Demonizing Iranian Americans at home for what Iran does makes as much sense as demonizing Russian Americans for what Putin is doing.
Japan was Trump's original boogeyman, so this is gonna be fun.
I agree that Islam has problems right now, caused by it being in the middle of a reformation. Jihadism is the backlash to the reformation.
Did they also acknowledge the connection between radical right-wing terrorism and... the right wing? I'm not even seeing a reformation going on there.
Well, yes, simply believing it is a problem. When you have millions of Christians saying abortion is murder, eventually you end up with a brainwashed radical who decides to blow up abortion clinics. Similarly, when you have hundreds of million of Muslims with socially extreme views, you end up with a handful of radicals who turn to violence in defense of those views. This is what people mean when they say "war of ideas" in reference to extremist Islamic terrorism.
Just be to clear, none of what I'm saying is meant to "demonize" moderate Muslims living in the USA or supports Trump's travel ban. That shit is racism, plain and simple.
Carpe Libertatem
Member
Spicer already called the President of Mexico the "Prime Minister" too :lol
I'm not sure we disagree. By elevate I mean more like, let them live and prosper in our communities without feeling like second class citizens under constant suspicion. That natural socialization that happens under those circumstances can be very powerful. I don't think we can talk people out of their religion. I think it's counter productive to ban the burka or single out islam as a problem religion -- further building up the boogeyman of radical islam is more likely to further isolate muslim communities and even make recruiting easier for ISIS.
I wanna see the receipts on a quarter to half of all Muslims believe women should be forced to wear burkas. What?
JesseEwiak
Member
I mean worldwide, I could totally see that. But, I'd also point out that probably as far back in the far of year of 1977, the number was far lower, even worldwide.
The Burka/Niqab are cultural, not religious, and there's a legitimate argument for banning them as a net good in order to push back against unwanted cultural norms. It doesn't fly in the US because of our "I do what I want" cultural norms, but in more culturally homogenous and countries, there's more pressure to do it. And it's not an argument that's inherently evil, illiberal, etc.- there's a case to be made that this is a net good in order to speed cultural changes by using the government's power to enforce change.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I don't think that making it a crime to dress how you want will speed up cultural assimilation.
Like, no just no.
I think those kind of bans are more likely to result in women staying home, further isolated. And angry, further digging their heels in because they feel unwelcome.
Women socializing with the rest of their community under a burka is better than them not socializing at all -- both for their own well being and for accelerating change. People seem to think the ban will result in them still going out and socializing just as much as they did, just uncovered -- I'm not sure that's realistic.
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