What really frightens me is that the reformation could be losing. I look at countries like Turkey turning toward increased religious meddling in the state and I fear for the future.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PoliGAF 2017 |OT1| From Russia with Love
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
- Start date
- Status
What really frightens me is that the reformation could be losing. I look at countries like Turkey turning toward increased religious meddling in the state and I fear for the future.
You know, I hear this complaint constantly from the likes of Maher and Harris about this so-called liberal hypocrisy when it comes to muslims, but I have yet to see any prominent leftists make such a case.
There was one episode where Maher complained about lack of outcry from the left on things like female genital mutilation. WHAT? Who the hell is fine with such a thing?
There was one episode where Maher complained about lack of outcry from the left on things like female genital mutilation. WHAT? Who the hell is fine with such a thing?
It's long and complicated and hard to make on TV. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/12/03/ayaan-hirsi-ali-wants-modify-muslims/
JesseEwiak
Member
I'm sure there's some graduate student on Twitter who said something dumb about cultural differences when it comes to FGM, so that becomes the Left's default opinion on FGM according to folks like Harris. Same thing with social cons like Rod Dreher.
When it's a cultural norm you're required to live under, it isn't "dressing how you want." This isn't a black/white issue - it's complicated and requires balancing a lot of competing objectives against each other that are often working at cross purposes.
Box of Kittens
Banned
I feel like one thing that annoys me about those suggestions is that there is this air of the one person being THE Democratic savior, like it all comes down to wowing people with the candidate and nothing else matters. Some of that seems to come down to making inferences based on very little data, and some of it I think just misses a lot of Obama's strengths other than his charisma.
Now don't get me wrong, I think Kander could very well have a bright future ahead of him. Just not as the next nominee.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Banning burqas won't encourage women to leave the house without them, it just means they'll stay in the house. It doesn't help assimilation, it just sends a big message that "you aren't welcome here, please get out of our sight." When I take walks in the spring and summer, I've seen women in burqas out with their kids enjoying the sunshine. Banning the burqa just means they won't be able to take their kid out for a walk to the park, not that they'll realize their demeaning views on women.
I wish pigeon were here, because he could make a much more articulate argument on this subject than I can.
I wish pigeon were here, because he could make a much more articulate argument on this subject than I can.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I would say that what we need to do is do a better job of selling why we take the stance we do on the left re: Islamic cultural norms like the Burqa. Pushing people's culture away from them doesn't fight radicalization, it furthers it. Declining to say "radical Islamic terrorism" doesn't condone terrorism, it denies terrorists recruitment opportunities. And so on, and so on.
Perhaps the greatest failing in this area is the way foreign aid is treated; it should be regarded as a vital part of defending and advancing American interests abroad, instead it's "stupid handouts for foreigners." We gotta start pushing back against the core parts of conservative ideology like that.
Perhaps the greatest failing in this area is the way foreign aid is treated; it should be regarded as a vital part of defending and advancing American interests abroad, instead it's "stupid handouts for foreigners." We gotta start pushing back against the core parts of conservative ideology like that.
metalslimer
Member
Are there any actual studies done on whether banning the burqua actually presents causes more integration of women
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
People are only against "foreign aid" the boogeyman and would never accept cutting off the foreign aid we do give.
People think that like 20% of the government budget is giving money to starving Africans (which might be good actually...) and strongly disapprove of that myth but I'm not sure what to do about that?
Box of Kittens
Banned
This is really something worth hitting Trump on. Not necessarily the specifics of Dodd-Frank, but the idea that he said he would fight for the working class and is instead doing the wish list of Wall Street.
Dominican Power
Member
But y'all can see why the burka doesn't really fly in a place like France? Because of how antithetical it is to how they live their lives.
Islam is a generally right-wing religion that carries a lot of odious propositions concerning the treatment of women, queer people, and non-believers. Problem is that the overwhelming number of critiques of Islam are made in bad faith. Republicans generally don't give a shit about Muslim women being oppressed. They use Islamic misogyny as a way to limit Islamic influence and keep down Muslim people, both male and female. The rampant and increasing Islamophobia in the west has brought a lot of leftists and liberals close to Islam and its traditions in ways that would never happen in Muslim countries.
Tying a hijab around a non-Muslim carries an incredibly different connotation in America versus in Pakistan. Here, whiteness is the dominant hegemonic identity imposed by the ruing class. Over there, it's Islam. Resisting white supremacy by embracing Islam makes a lot of sense in America. But this doesn't change the conservative nature of the hijab. Requiring of even requesting that women cover up to "protect themselves" is inherently sexist.
The left should critique Islam as religion, but in a way that is not anti-Muslim. This is difficult because many western Muslims, even Muslim women, embrace restrictive aspects of Islamic tradition in defiance of the white supremacist hegemony that stands to harm them. If Islamophobia in America wasn't so brutal and widespread, these conversations would be a lot easier.
Tying a hijab around a non-Muslim carries an incredibly different connotation in America versus in Pakistan. Here, whiteness is the dominant hegemonic identity imposed by the ruing class. Over there, it's Islam. Resisting white supremacy by embracing Islam makes a lot of sense in America. But this doesn't change the conservative nature of the hijab. Requiring of even requesting that women cover up to "protect themselves" is inherently sexist.
The left should critique Islam as religion, but in a way that is not anti-Muslim. This is difficult because many western Muslims, even Muslim women, embrace restrictive aspects of Islamic tradition in defiance of the white supremacist hegemony that stands to harm them. If Islamophobia in America wasn't so brutal and widespread, these conversations would be a lot easier.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
In the same way that people who wear clothes might not find themselves comfortable in a nudist society, attacking the hijab for being an oppressive tool is kind of ridiculous. Is a women wearing a one-piece swimsuit because she doesn't feel comfortable in a bikini oppression? Well, maybe in the sense that male gaze is a real problem we should address as a society, but that doesn't mean we should ban or criticize one piece swimsuits or the women who wear them. Hijabs are an expression of faith from Muslims the same way a rosary, yamaka, or a Sikh's turban. If they feel pressured to wear it, yeah, that's bad, but it's also probably bad if a kid's parent makes them play football because it'll toughen them up and make them a man, it doesn't mean football or hijabs are bad.
Football is bad though because it's the most boring sport on the planet, I will never understand why it's so popular.
Football is bad though because it's the most boring sport on the planet, I will never understand why it's so popular.
whyamihere
Banned
Exactly. That's the message for 2020.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Agreed, don't make it about his temperament or fitness for office or anything like that. Make it about how he's screwing over the people he said he'd help. Or more generally, as I've put it before, his approvals are higher than his favorables, which means we should attack the approvals.
I did not mention the hijab.
Yeah...read all of Hershi's arguments and there's no substance at all. It basically boils down to "here's the worst elements of Islam, and therefore every muslim wants the same thing".
Aaron Strife
Banned
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
That was a reply to Valhelm.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...p-but-time-to-recognize-his-strong-start.html
Mitt eating Trump's ass, lol, what a coward.
I mean, it is could definitely be worth attacking his fitness for office if his lack of fitness causes us to get engaged in an unwinnable ground war in Iran!
Or if he destroys the U.S. economy!
Hillary couldn't convince people that Trump was too stupid to be president because Trump was a man and was rich and people give rich white men the benefit of the doubt when it comes to intelligence. But if everything is crashing and burning and there's constant catastrophes and he lets a city drowns, that benefit of the doubt will start diminishing.
Anyway, presidential candidates should do no negative campaigning in general as it just makes them look petty and the media will do the negative campaigning for them.
Mitt eating Trump's ass, lol, what a coward.
I mean, it is could definitely be worth attacking his fitness for office if his lack of fitness causes us to get engaged in an unwinnable ground war in Iran!
Or if he destroys the U.S. economy!
Hillary couldn't convince people that Trump was too stupid to be president because Trump was a man and was rich and people give rich white men the benefit of the doubt when it comes to intelligence. But if everything is crashing and burning and there's constant catastrophes and he lets a city drowns, that benefit of the doubt will start diminishing.
Anyway, presidential candidates should do no negative campaigning in general as it just makes them look petty and the media will do the negative campaigning for them.
Thing is, the Burqa and Hijab are - at least in some countries - presented as a way to prevent men from being sexually attracted to women. So, they're a round-about form of dealing with the male-gaze, but rather than deal with that as a cultural-issue, they enforce a dress-code on women, so men aren't tempted.
So, depending upon where you are and who you're talking to, the clothing is either entirely religious, entirely cultural, or somewhere in-between.
So, depending upon where you are and who you're talking to, the clothing is either entirely religious, entirely cultural, or somewhere in-between.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
So Kasich is writing a book called "Two Paths: America Divided or United"
http://wdtn.com/2017/01/31/john-kasich-to-release-book-entitled-two-paths-america-divided-or-united/
There's no way he isn't running for president in 2020. I'll give him credit for mostly sticking to his guns in being Never Trump so far, at least.
http://wdtn.com/2017/01/31/john-kasich-to-release-book-entitled-two-paths-america-divided-or-united/
There's no way he isn't running for president in 2020. I'll give him credit for mostly sticking to his guns in being Never Trump so far, at least.
VendettaRed07
Member
The best case scenario is that someone successfully primary challenges him. The GOP needs to let ONE person run and bar everyone else
I don't care if it gives the GOP a better chance to win. This man cannot be allowed be allowed to win re-election
COUNTRY HAS BIGLY PROBLEMS, OBAMA CAN'T PLAY GOLF
I wish Democrats had some epic twitter troll for these occasions.
Not very bright people at the WH.
lol, they don't know his name or title?
Aaron Strife
Banned
I'm on the same page.
If Kasich runs as a primary challenger to Trump, I will vote for him unless someone especially heinous (Tulsi or Cuomo, as examples) makes serious headway in the Democratic primary.
And yeah I'm well aware of Kasich's faults. But to his credit I think he at least operates in the same universe as most of society.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
The WH isn't proofreading anything >_>
I can't wait for the poorly written Obamacare EO that accidentally forces every state to get the Medicaid expansion.
excelsiorlef
Member
I reject the idea that Husband and wife are a dynasty... Also there's no such thing as a meritocracy anyway. If she's the best candidate then she's the best candidate.
Cuomo seems to be trying to reinvent himself, but we'll see if it sticks.
A very long essay on What Steve Bannon really wants, based on his speeches, writing, and other works.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
That is not good.
Relax
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Is Chris Arnade the dumbest person in America? He's dismissing the protests of millions because he talked to 8 people.
https://twitter.com/Chris_arnade/status/827667907249336320
I have talked to more than 8 people and they are very mad right now tbh.
https://twitter.com/Chris_arnade/status/827667907249336320
I have talked to more than 8 people and they are very mad right now tbh.
I was expecting that dude to be a Breitbrat, but he writes for the Guardian? o_0
I'm not pro Hirsi Ali at all. The article is also clear which side it's on.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
He's a useful idiot Nazi apologist ala Michael Tracey.
The 2nd to last DNC Chair forum is about to start
You Know Nothing
Member
This so-called "rule of law" is a bad deal. Sad! Let's get rid of it.
Correct. I did apologize multiple times.
Yeah, going to play some video games. I had just come from the gym even!
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
And female genital mutilation is something intersectional feminist groups talk about all the time, and they got Obama to start a study into it to start the process of fighting it in america.
I imagine it doesn't get more attention outside of feminist groups because there's so many other things to pay attention to, and like you said there's no really controversy to debate over, not because liberals want to put muslims on a pedestal like Maher seems to think we do.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Chris Arnade is funny because he describes himself as the working class voice and says that they are happy with the Muslim ban because it's making the libtards mad.
I mean, you are describing mostly psychopaths then! "I care more about making media people sad than Muslims being allowed into the nation" is something a psychopath says and you are making out the working class to be psychopaths.
Chris Arnade would probably describe Trump nuking Tokyo as a positive to the WWC because the group of seven people he knows liked how mad the liberals got because Trump murdered 20 million people.
I mean, you are describing mostly psychopaths then! "I care more about making media people sad than Muslims being allowed into the nation" is something a psychopath says and you are making out the working class to be psychopaths.
Chris Arnade would probably describe Trump nuking Tokyo as a positive to the WWC because the group of seven people he knows liked how mad the liberals got because Trump murdered 20 million people.
excelsiorlef
Member
FGM is also far more a per country cultural practice then a specifically Islamic one. Most countries where it is practice Christians also do it.
http://www.stopfgmmideast.org/background/islam-or-culture/
Aaron Strife
Banned
Yeah, I just don't think it'll work. Centrist politics have been his bread and butter for years. I think he attempts just enough progressive legislation to not rile up the base too much. Clinton tried reinventing herself and it failed miserably.
But then again, Cuomo has a dick.
I think it would be a mistake to rely on the media for negative campaigning. They've shown themselves to be anything but reliable.
But maybe they'll be so fed up with Trump that they'll actually grow a spine.
Thanks for this.
No idea who Peckarsky is, but it's nice to see that he also wants a 50 state strategy. That seems to be the theme going forward. I just hope that future DNC chairs stick with it.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked