PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

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Blader said:
That the GOP "allowed" Dems to claim a victory on the CR is a ridiculous read because it produced an embarrassing news cycle for them and personally pissed off Trump.
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Yeah, the internal GOP fractures in the house are real.
Aaron Strife said:
Sure, but when you're talking about an election that was lost by 70,000 votes spread across the Midwest, "playing the margins" is the difference between President Trump and President Clinton.
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Absolutely, and Clinton and her campaign fucking up a number of those by throwing out the Obama campaign approach is an important lesson NOT TO DO THAT.

If something works, do it AND try the new stuff too!
 
Blader said:
That the GOP "allowed" Dems to claim a victory on the CR is a ridiculous read because it produced an embarrassing news cycle for them and personally pissed off Trump.
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The alternative would be a shutdown of the government on Trump's 100th day in office which would have produced an embarrassing news cycle for them and personally pissed off Trump.

Or to avoid that they would have had to pass a continuing resolution via reconciliation, which would mean they would have had to lump AHCA and tax cuts in 1 reconciliation bill, or only be able to pass 1 thing.
 
numble said:
The alternative would be a shutdown of the government on Trump's 100th day in office which would have produced an embarrassing news cycle for them and personally pissed off Trump.

Or to avoid that they would have had to pass a continuing resolution via reconciliation, which would mean they would have had to lump AHCA and tax cuts in 1 reconciliation bill, or only be able to pass 1 thing.
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Shutting the government down would have...resulted in a government shut down. Which is a pretty bad thing, as many of these same Dems AND us argued less than four years ago. You can't excoriate Republicans for putting party before country, and then insist that Pelosi should have tried to shut down the government -- an objectively bad thing for the country -- to score some temporary political points.
 
Macho Madness said:
I know you mean well but this is silly. Of course the left hates the Republicans much more than the Democrats. The reason they fight the Democrats is because they want to remake the party in their image. Given the catastrophic losses the party has suffered since Obama took office, the establishment wisdom doesn't appear to be serving people all that well. The party is about as weak as its ever been right now, which is why you're seeing a left insurgency.
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This isn't really what I'm talking about though. Activism to change the Democratic Party can be a healthy thing (not so much when it gets behind the Tim Canovas and Tulsi Gabbards of the world) and even though I didn't vote for him, I think Bernie Sanders has pushed a lot of necessary conversations within the party.

What frustrates me is how much energy the left expends taking the actions of Republicans and blaming them on Democrats. Pretty much everything Reagan and his successors have done to harm this country gets blamed on the Dem establishment and I don't think that's constructive criticism. It's why I stopped reading sites like DailyKos years ago. It's not that I don't think we need to hold the party accountable, just hold them accountable for the right things.
 
kirblar said:
Somehow I doubt most voters care about arcane procedural moves that will amount to effectively nothing. (see: Mnuchin/Price.) This is not about "showing" people, this is about a large number of people being absolutely delusional about the fact that they don't have power. You should not be taking every opportunity possible to do political theatre, otherwise, it becomes impossible to take you seriously!

I'm not saying it's not important or shouldn't be done. This instance in particular is just a very bad idea.

OTOH, Pelosi/Hoyer's move w/ the budget? That's a good one because they actually have leverage due to the GOP's internal fractures.
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I couldn't disagree more and I'm really disappointed that you believe this.
 
PBY said:
This. You fight like hell either way, bc at the very least it helps message why the GOP plan sucks.
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Everyone knows the plan sucks, the vast majority of the country opposes it, democrats are actively opposing it. Delaying this by two weeks is not a hill to die on when it kills various other things that need to be done (Russian sanctions, Sessions hearing, etc).

Pretty fucking tired of liberals demanding bullshit because it makes them feel better.
 
Blader said:
Shutting the government down would have...resulted in a government shut down. Which is a pretty bad thing, as many of these same Dems AND us argued less than four years ago. You can't excoriate Republicans for putting party before country, and then insist that Pelosi should have tried to shut down the government -- an objectively bad thing for the country -- to score some temporary political points.
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They already threatened to shutdown the government to simply delay a vote on the AHCA, and they got that wish. They might as well threaten the same to get rid of AHCA for good. Getting rid of AHCA is not "scoring some temporary political points".

First, the blame for a shutdown on the 100th day of Trump's term with a Republican majority would fall right on the GOP. Secondly, the GOP would still have the power to avoid the shutdown by using up one of their reconciliation bills. It would simply mean that it would make passing AHCA and tax cuts via reconciliation much harder. Making it hard for the GOP to pass AHCA and their tax cuts is not "scoring some temporary political points".

The next CR will probably be around the same time that the GOP is hoping to pass its massive tax cuts via reconciliation--you believe the Democrats should not threaten a government shutdown and force the GOP to use up its last reconciliation opportunity for the year on a CR instead of their massive tax cuts?

Where am I excoriating Republicans for putting party before country?
 
kirblar said:
Somehow I doubt most voters care about arcane procedural moves that will amount to effectively nothing. (see: Mnuchin/Price.) This is not about "showing" people, this is about a large number of people being absolutely delusional about the fact that they don't have power. You should not be taking every opportunity possible to do political theatre, otherwise, it becomes impossible to take you seriously!

I'm not saying it's not important or shouldn't be done. This instance in particular is just a very bad idea.

OTOH, Pelosi/Hoyer's move w/ the budget? That's a good one because they actually have leverage due to the GOP's internal fractures.
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Just last week a statement over procedure about viewing the healthcare bill, by a senator, went viral...

People like seeing their reps doing something, it doesn't really matter if it's futile or not
 
This is all so fucking stupid.

They obviously know this bill is political suicide. If they didn't, they wouldn't be acting like this. Paul Ryan, a true believer and all-around moron, proudly announced his plan to the world. Say what you will about him, at least he actually thinks his shitty idea is a good one and he's standing behind it.

These guys know it's dogshit and they're so terrified of the public seeing how bad it is that they're going to extraordinary lengths to prevent anyone from finding out. But we'll all find out in like 2 weeks anyway.

Why march yourself to the fucking guillotine over something you don't even believe in?
 
numble said:
They already threatened to shutdown the government to simply delay a vote on the AHCA, and they got that wish. They might as well threaten the same to get rid of AHCA for good. Getting rid of AHCA is not "scoring some temporary political points".

First, the blame for a shutdown on the 100th day of Trump's term with a Republican majority would fall right on the GOP. Secondly, the GOP would still have the power to avoid the shutdown by using up one of their reconciliation bills. It would simply mean that it would make passing AHCA and tax cuts via reconciliation much harder.

The next CR will probably be around the same time that the GOP is hoping to pass its massive tax cuts via reconciliation--you believe the Democrats should not threaten a government shutdown and force the GOP to use up its last reconciliation opportunity for the year on a CR instead of their massive tax cuts?

Where am I excoriating Republicans for putting party before country?
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I guess I'm referring to the collective you.

There is no "getting rid of AHCA" from Democrats. They're the minority party! They can't get rid of anything that is reconciliation friendly. The only thing that can get rid of that bill is a handful of Senate Rs, most of whom have apparently made peace with taking away Medicaid from thousands of their constituents.

Emerson said:
This is all so fucking stupid.

They obviously know this bill is political suicide. If they didn't, they wouldn't be acting like this. Paul Ryan, a true believer and all-around moron, proudly announced his plan to the world. Say what you will about him, at least he actually thinks his shitty idea is a good one and he's standing behind it.

These guys know it's dogshit and they're so terrified of the public seeing how bad it is that they're going to extraordinary lengths to prevent anyone from finding out. But we'll all find out in like 2 weeks anyway.

Why march yourself to the fucking guillotine over something you don't even believe in?
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Because after seven years, nobody wants to be publicly blamed by the base, the party, and the president for being the one to kill the chance at repealing Obamacare. The "moderates" are especially squishy about this, but even the Freedom Caucus clearly did not like taking heat for killing AHCA the first time. It's not a coincidence that THEY are the ones who restarted the negotiations that ultimately got the bill out of the House.

Like I said earlier, when public pressure and shame over the bill's unpopularity are no longer part of the calculus, nothing is stopping the bill from passing.
 
Emerson said:
This is all so fucking stupid.

They obviously know this bill is political suicide. If they didn't, they wouldn't be acting like this. Paul Ryan, a true believer and all-around moron, proudly announced his plan to the world. Say what you will about him, at least he actually thinks his shitty idea is a good one and he's standing behind it.

These guys know it's dogshit and they're so terrified of the public seeing how bad it is that they're going to extraordinary lengths to prevent anyone from finding out. But we'll all find out in like 2 weeks anyway.

Why march yourself to the fucking guillotine over something you don't even believe in?
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I wonder this about myself sometimes.
 
Emerson said:
This is all so fucking stupid.

They obviously know this bill is political suicide. If they didn't, they wouldn't be acting like this. Paul Ryan, a true believer and all-around moron, proudly announced his plan to the world. Say what you will about him, at least he actually thinks his shitty idea is a good one and he's standing behind it.

These guys know it's dogshit and they're so terrified of the public seeing how bad it is that they're going to extraordinary lengths to prevent anyone from finding out. But we'll all find out in like 2 weeks anyway.

Why march yourself to the fucking guillotine over something you don't even believe in?
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Because their priorities are warped. There are very few GOP Senators up for re-election in '18. And those that are are in relatively safe GOP seats. So the bigger danger is getting primaried.
 
Emerson said:
This is all so fucking stupid.

They obviously know this bill is political suicide. If they didn't, they wouldn't be acting like this. Paul Ryan, a true believer and all-around moron, proudly announced his plan to the world. Say what you will about him, at least he actually thinks his shitty idea is a good one and he's standing behind it.

These guys know it's dogshit and they're so terrified of the public seeing how bad it is that they're going to extraordinary lengths to prevent anyone from finding out. But we'll all find out in like 2 weeks anyway.

Why march yourself to the fucking guillotine over something you don't even believe in?
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I don't get this either. They're shitting out a bastardised version of the ACA, for no benefit to ANYONE. Even the fucking insurance companies don't want the fucking bill! If they are so adamant about repeal and replace, replace it with something better maybe?!
 
Emerson said:
This is all so fucking stupid.

They obviously know this bill is political suicide. If they didn't, they wouldn't be acting like this. Paul Ryan, a true believer and all-around moron, proudly announced his plan to the world. Say what you will about him, at least he actually thinks his shitty idea is a good one and he's standing behind it.

These guys know it's dogshit and they're so terrified of the public seeing how bad it is that they're going to extraordinary lengths to prevent anyone from finding out. But we'll all find out in like 2 weeks anyway.

Why march yourself to the fucking guillotine over something you don't even believe in?
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Almost a decade of "Fuck Obamacare" will do that.
 
I agree that political theater is important. I supported the filibuster of Gorsuch even though it was clear that Republicans were just going to eliminate the filibuster in response. I was critical of the decision to let Manchin vote for Sessions because I believed there was sufficient political value in a unanimous vote against him even if we couldn't stop him. I'm all for the Dems being creative in opposing the AHCA, even if it ultimately doesn't stop it because I agree that there is value in showing you're willing to fight. I get frustrated by the anger you see in left circles whenever the party doesn't adopt some idea an activist came up with exactly and when people blame Democrats for things that are outside of their control.
 
So is capitol security going to start physically dragging out / arresting reporters who try to cover what's going on? Because there have to be some reporters willing to resist this bullshit.
 
Blader said:
I guess I'm referring to the collective you.

There is no "getting rid of AHCA" from Democrats. They're the minority party! They can't get rid of anything that is reconciliation friendly. The only thing that can get rid of that bill is a handful of Senate Rs, most of whom have apparently made peace with taking away Medicaid from thousands of their constituents.
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The reconciliation process, which is codified in law and not Senate rules, can only be used a limited amount of times, for budget bills. The AHCA and tax cuts will be passed as "budget bills" to be able to take advantage of reconciliation.

There are only 2 reconciliation bills that may be passed this year. If they do not have Democrat cooperation on a budget bill (including a CR budget bill), they have to either get rid of the filibuster or use up a reconciliation opportunity to pass the CR. If they use reconciliation to pass the CR, it makes it more difficult to pass AHCA and tax cuts via reconciliation because they would need to either cram both into 1 bill, or they can only do 1 out of 2.

The CR was passed on April 28 and the Dems threatened a shutdown if AHCA was voted on that same week. ...So the House passed AHCA on May 4.
 
kirblar said:
I don't understand how "pick your battles" elicits this response.
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Because I think being needlessly defeatist and not willing to actually fight even though you know you'll lose is a terrible strategy that depresses our base.

So yeah, it's a totally valid response. I'm very disappointed!

I say this to try to end the conversation because we're not going to agree and I fundamentally think you're POV on this is flawed. Don't be surprised that I'm angry about it.
 
Vixdean said:
Seriously can we fucking riot yet? This just makes me want to burn this mother fucker down. Come on pookie, let's burn this mother fucker down!!!!
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You can riot whenever you want.

numble said:
The reconciliation process, which is codified in law and not Senate rules, can only be used a limited amount of times, for budget bills. The AHCA and tax cuts will be passed as "budget bills" to be able to take advantage of reconciliation.

There are only 2 reconciliation bills that may be passed this year. If they do not have Democrat cooperation on a budget bill (including a CR budget bill), they have to either get rid of the filibuster or use up a reconciliation opportunity to pass the CR. If they use reconciliation to pass the CR, it makes it more difficult to pass AHCA and tax cuts via reconciliation because they would need to either cram both into 1 bill, or they can only do 1 out of 2.

The CR was passed on April 28 and the Dems threatened a shutdown if AHCA was voted on that same week. ...So the House passed AHCA on May 4.
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I remember. But I don't understand your argument here... if Dems threatened a shutdown in relation to AHCA, and the House simply moved voting on the bill back a week, then what is the point of ever threatening a shut down? Are you suggesting Pelosi, Schumer, et al. should say "drop this bill or we won't vote for a clean CR to keep the government will be open" will be met with Ryan and McConnell agreeing to those terms and then actually starting from scratch on healthcare afterward? Any shutdown threat contingent on AHCA will just be met with moving AHCA to the next opportunity for a floor vote.
 
McConnell isn't an idiot. Either he's desperate due to an unrevealed factor or has made a rare-for-him MAJOR mistake with this.

BoogieWoogie said:
Maybe the Mueller firing rumors are beginning to shake people awake finally?



http://www.thedailybeast.com/house-intel-panel-adds-staff-for-russia-probe?via=twitter_page
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This is good to get past the bottlenecks for all of these committees. More people, less time between hearings, more hearings.

BoogieWoogie said:
Oh please, it's going to happen. Let's be real.
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Getting everyone talking openly about the potential firing puts pressure on Dolt 45 to NOT do this, or at least delay it, plus get conversation up and running on the subject of how damning and destructive this is, both for our nation and the GOP position of quiet on Trump fuckery. It also counteracts the anti-Mueller astroturfing now underway.
 
Outdoor Miner said:
It's a coup folks. What a time to be alive.

Ive felt Sarah Kendzior has been a little dramatic since November with a lot of what she's said. Not anymore.
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No drama. She has been 100% on the money.
 
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