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[Bonen no Max'd]

No. I also did not support the invasion of Iraq.

You just said that US policy should be unconcerned with civilian beliefs or casualties. To quote you:

I do not care about the quality of life of the average Russian. I understand they are under a shitty oligarchal society. I also understand that nothing that we can do can actually help them escape this. They are currently committing genocide in Chechnya and we can do nothing to to help those gay men.

Russia has attacked the USA, the UK, Germany, France, and countless other nations. This cannot go without a response. I do not believe economic sanctions should be off the table for "humanitarian" reasons. A recession is not a world-ending event. There is still food, water and shelter there. I also do not know what the best course of action re: specific sanctions is, because it is not my field of expertise. But "nothing" is not the response we should be taking here.

The US has engaged in far worse actions towards MENA countries like Iraq and Yemen and have caused far more material harm to their citizens than Russia has done to us, if no option should be off the table because of how it could affect civilians with no input into the country's foreign policy decisions, shouldn't you support attacks aimed to remove the US from interfering with their countries?

 

[Makai]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xHzcbq-3_4

Mike Pence laughing at this is weird for a normal Republican

 

[Chris R]

Murkowski won't say a thing as long as that 1.8B provision is in place.

 

[Lo-Volt]

Well, this is great news:



It's not him officially saying he'll vote against it, but it's damn close.

Not what I would have wanted- someone going against the bill because it goes too far, not because it doesn't go far enough in limiting Americans' health care- but anything that gets the Senate to 3 R votes against is fantastic in my book.

Wow, OK. That’s something.

You know, I’m not even going to pick on McConnell, Master Tactician, because this is beyond a master tactician. No operator can paper over disagreements this fundamental forever, honestly. The Senate GOP is going through some really existential stuff, and unless McConnell and Ryan are willing to break the Hastert Rule, they’re basically going to be shuttling back and forth for time eternal.

 

[kirblar]

This is more or less what you've been saying for a couple pages, again with a strawman.

Where did I say Russia's hacking was in doubt, or that Russia hasn't been colluding with right-wing parties?

I did say that you haven't yet presented a good argument for sanctions, which is a trend that continues with this post.

You said

"That the enemy is unknowable is to some degree defensible"

I disagree. Consequences are to some degree unknowable.

Who our enemy is is very clear.

 

[Autodidact]

Murkowski won't say a thing as long as that 1.8B provision is in place.

Hmm... I forgot about that buyoff.

However, if the bill has well and truly died, I can still see her offering some criticism. That way, she can still look moderate and measured in the end... even though she would've gotten what she wanted had it passed. A moderate way to eat one's cake and have it, too.

 

[Box of Kittens]

The bill is going well.

Time for all the Profiles in Courage to come out and say they opposed the bill all along.

 

[jtb]

Wow, OK. That’s something.

You know, I’m not even going to pick on McConnell, Master Tactician, because this is beyond a master tactician. No operator can paper over disagreements this fundamental forever, honestly. The Senate GOP is going through some really existential stuff, and unless McConnell and Ryan are willing to break the Hastert Rule, they’re basically going to be shuttling back and forth for time eternal.

They'll be fine once they turn their eye back towards their true legislative passions that have always unified the GOP coalition: state oppression of minorities and women.

 

[Deuce Deuce]

Well, this is great news:



It's not him officially saying he'll vote against it, but it's damn close.

Not what I would have wanted- someone going against the bill because it goes too far, not because it doesn't go far enough in limiting Americans' health care- but anything that gets the Senate to 3 R votes against is fantastic in my book.

So, the take away is that McConnell must be pretty desperate to pull out some bullshit like that.

Also, why would anyone believe that shit?

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I realize Moran's come out with Lee so he's not the only one to kill it but it's still weird that he'd even have to bother. I wonder if something really is the matter with Kansas.

 

[whyamihere]

I realize Moran's come out with Lee so he's not the only one to kill it but it's still weird that he'd even have to bother. I wonder if something really is the matter with Kansas.

I really do think we have a shot at it.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I really do think we have a shot at it.

The governorship, the senate seats, or both?

 

[Autodidact]

At the very least Yoder should be quaking, and Thompson might have a chance if he runs again next year.

 

[kirblar]

You just said that US policy should be unconcerned with civilian beliefs or casualties. To quote you:

The US has engaged in far worse actions towards MENA countries like Iraq and Yemen and have caused far more material harm to their citizens than Russia has done to us, if no option should be off the table because of how it could affect civilians with no input into the country's foreign policy decisions, shouldn't you support attacks aimed to remove the US from interfering with their countries?

"I do not care about the quality of life of the average Russian" does not mean "US policy should be unconcerned with civillian beliefs or casualties."

 

[Dan]

What if... what if there's something about McCain the Republicans know that the public does not?

 

[Plinko]

YO!

Wonderful!

Also, that news about the 8th person leads me to believe it's someone big. Either someone like Priebus or someone tied to some sort of illegal oppo gathering.

 

[kirblar]

What if... what if there's something about McCain the Republicans know that the public does not?

If McCain is going to be on the IR longer than expected than the bill's just plain dead.

 

[Random Human]

What if... what if there's something about McCain the Republicans know that the public does not?

Like, health wise you mean?

 

[Autodidact]

If McCain is going to be on the IR longer than expected than the bill's just plain dead.

Along with something else?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

This is dying the exactly same way it did the first time, with an added forced delay from McCain

McConnell canceling the vote the minute McCain went to the hospital was pretty telling that they didn't really have the votes. They had no margin at all.

 

[kirblar]

Along with something else?

No, the implication is not that McCain is dying lol. But not wanting him to fly in the wake of a giant blood clot poses a serious issue.

 

[VendettaRed07]

The governorship, the senate seats, or both?

The mansion should be doable

We picked up one in 2016 in Trump's best state. We can win that there

Senate will be significantly harder

 

[Dan]

Like, health wise you mean?

At least that they have confirmation he definitely needs more than the single week McCain's office initially claimed would be required for recuperation. A longer delay presents additional legislative hurdles, giving everyone some room to abandon this bill.

 

[East Lake]

You said

I disagree. Consequences are to some degree unknowable.

Who our enemy is is very clear.

Lets note again here that I still haven't seen a good argument for sanctions.

And to clarify this, I don't think PBY meant that we don't know who the enemy is, but that we don't know what the response should be. Keep in mind he is saying this within the context of policies toward Russia, not that the enemy could have really been the Vietnamese all along.

This seems like another misinterpretation.

But that aside, I agree the enemy is Russia, and I think PBY does too, and you and I agree consequences are to some degree unknowable. This doesn't do much to support the sanctions argument.

 

[Plinko]

Moran calling for "open legislative process."

Turning on McConnell and calling for a fair and open process with democrats leads me to believe they see the writing on the wall here.

 

[Abinash117]

At the same time like North Korea, the industry is the state. Putin owns enough industry through the government and through his oligarchy that targeted sanctions are mostly symbolic (though they do drive away investors and international creditors). Broad economic sanctions is realistically the only way to start to influence the state's decisions. IMO first targeting their weapons trades is one way to provide a somewhat targeted means of hurting the regime like oil prices have.

Ukraine sanctions specifically went after the people that were connected to the crisis and their business.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26672800

The same might happen. However, we don't know the full scale of the inference and once we do the actions we be decided based on that. If it is REALLY bad than severe economic sanctions might happen, but the real goal may not be stopping from doing it again( that would take other measures and other forms of sanctions) it might be to punish and degrade Russia.

 

[Diablos]

YO!

YOOOOOOOO

omfg

 

[whyamihere]

The governorship, the senate seats, or both?

KS-3, Governorship, maaaaybe KS-2.

In that order.

 

[kirblar]

Moran calling for "open legislative process."

Turning on McConnell and calling for a fair and open process with democrats leads me to believe they see the writing on the wall here.

Capito was the canary in the literal coal mine.

You don't do a joint tour w/ Manchin like that if you're hardlining.

 

[whyamihere]

master tactician mitch mcconnell amirite

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Lets note again here that I still haven't seen a good argument for sanctions.

But that aside, I agree the enemy is Russia, and I think PBY does too, and you and I agree consequences are to some degree unknowable. This doesn't do much to support the sanctions argument.

You need leverage to bring Russia to the table as an honest negotiator. Cordial diplomacy with them now isn't worth a damn since they are continuing to negotiate and act in bad faith. We've seen it in Ukraine, Syria, and just about every other means. They feel like they can act without repercussion (TBF they have) because Putin can rattle nuclear weapons and everyone backs down. There needs to be punitive actions to provide consequence which in turn makes leverage, and the most effective way to do so is hurt his economy.

 

[neurosisxeno]

These Republicans sure are great at Governing...

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

if Moran's saying he opposes the bill because he thinks it could lead to single payer (lolololol) was it Roberts that said single payer was worth discussion?

edit: also if something really is the matter with Kansas, Roberts' seat is up in 2020 and he's old af (so he might retire and leave the seat open) and already had a steeper reelection challenge than you'd expect in 2014 soooooo

yeah it's hopium but something good happened so I'm entitled to a little

 

[balladofwindfishes]

So how pathetic is McConnell going to want to look before he gives up?

He's basically being like "guys, we can really do it this time, I know we can guys, come on, for real this time" while everyone else rolls their eyes and wants to do something else.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

These Republicans sure are great at Governing...

It's almost as if you need leadership from the executive to pass major legislation


ThinkingEmoji.bmp

 

[Slayven]

I wonder how much capital did Mitch burned to get this far?

 

[whyamihere]

Yeah, I fundamentally think that Brownback has changed the political dynamics of Kansas. I don't know if that lasts after he's gone and it reverts to its mean, but.

 

[Random Human]

Hoping we can get a good Twitter meltdown tonight and then maybe the NYT story finally drops tomorrow. Made in America Week going bigly!

 

[Futurevoid]

Big fear now is the turtle tries to save face by throwing in with the repeal now, replace later crowd. I can't put it past him....

 

[Slayven]

Yeah, I fundamentally think that Brownback has changed the political dynamics of Kansas. I don't know if that lasts after he's gone and it reverts to its mean, but.

Near death experiences will do that

 

[jtb]

I'm so glad Paul Ryan drove his caucus off a cliff just so he could watch the bill die in the Senate. What was the point of that again?

 

[kirblar]

Near death experiences will do that

For two years and then they just vote in the GOP once the Dems fix it.

 

[Abinash117]

They wasted like 6 months or more trying to get a bill passed. They have to move on or they'll be stuck on healthcare forever.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Big fear now is the turtle tries to save face by throwing in with the repeal now, replace later crowd. I can't put it past him....

There aren't enough votes to do that. It also wouldn't stand a chance passing reconciliation even if they had the 50 to do it.

I'm so glad Paul Ryan drove his caucus off a cliff just so he could watch the bill die in the Senate. What was the point of that again?

It's hilarious. We were talking about the "best case" scenario for this way back when the first House bill was being voted on, and it was getting these congressmen to put their names to the bill, but have it die in the senate was one of the best situations.

Never in my wildest dreams would it be this big of a train wreck in the senate, though. This is a new bar.

 

[timetokill]

I'm so glad Paul Ryan drove his caucus off a cliff just so he could watch the bill die in the Senate. What was the point of that again?

So that the spotlight would be off of him

I'm sure he's been living it up watching everyone hate on McConnell and Trump and Trump Jr etc for a change

 

[ShironRedshift]

master tactician mitch mcconnell amirite

Honestly... at this point, if I were Mitch, I'd just thinking about an exit plan at this point, stat. BCRA seems like it's dead. And even if he manages to pull a rabbit out of his hat and somehow manages to get something passed anyway, that so much time has been wasted on it and that healthcare has been such a huge fight by itself means taxes will be an even worse nightmare. Just let someone else deal with all of that.

Of course, no way he's actually going anywhere. But if I were in his shoes right now, I'd make like Boehner and just get out of there because just fuck dealing with this hot mess. Not worth.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

The bill is going well.

That's fantastic!

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

everyone should be glad its current incarnation is stopped but there's nothing guaranteeing that a slightly more draconian version of the bill won't be crafted when McCain gets back and we'll be back to where we started

 

[Diablos]

2018 is probably more ideal, Newt was right as much as I hate his ass.

This is why Dems winning back the House and/or Senate in 2018 is SO important.

 

[kirblar]

everyone should be glad its current incarnation is stopped but there's nothing guaranteeing that a slightly more draconian version of the bill won't be crafted when McCain gets back and we'll be back to where we started

Other than Senators in Medicaid expansion states who want to keep their seats in '18 and '20.