Stu_Hart
Banned
I don't engage in arguing and demolishing kids online. Is that crystal clear?
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Shanw Layden (Former PlayStation CEO) on Ghost of Yotei protagonist being a female: "Don't like it? Don't buy it"
DeepSpace5D
Member
And you don’t honestly think I’m a kid, so stop being silly. I’m not going to continue this really dumb back and forth, because I don’t like to derail threads. If you want to actually go back on topic, I’m happy to.
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DeepSpace5D
Member
What? Dude he made some ridiculous comment about kids balls dropping. If someone has nothing of substance to my comment which I think was valid criticism of Shawn Layden, and goes straight to immature personal insults, then the same gets thrown back.
KàIRóS
Member
It's not what I define it's what their sales expectations are, but they will never reveal that to the public I just assume they would like to sell at least half of what Tsushima sold but I don't think it will, only time will tell though.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Sucker Punch is probably 10x as woke as Shawn Layden. They're in Bellvue for crying out loud.
Layden isn't/wasn't the problem. Post Feminist Frequency/2016 + coastal state/urban politics is at the core of this. Layden probably became super-progressive because of the studios underneath him, not the other way around.
Cakeboxer
Member
I can ony speak for myself, but my issue is that the actress is too political and extreme. I would only hire people that are neutral/reserved on social media. With an actress like that i would be concerned that her next post after "I'm the new ghost" could be something like "LOL, bit off that guy's nose in the bar yesterday".
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
and you made a comment about being a 4 year old so.............yeaaaaa
I don't think anything is wrong with Shawn's comment.
Don't like it, don't buy it.
Why cry over this? Its a moot point.
You are free to buy what ever you want and you don't need to buy this game.
I don't see this as something to get this upset over someone telling you this, fuck is he suppose to say? Don't like it, buy it anyway so DeepSpace don't cry a deep cry or something?
fallingdove
Member
Not the Ubisoft/EA approach. We know nothing about the protagonist other than it’s a woman and Shawn Layden hasn’t worked at Sony in years.Ah yes, the Ubisoft and EA approach.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
I would never even got that far lol
I'd hire the best person for the job.
The reality is, anyone who gets this fucking triggered by this to not buy a game, isn't even a normal person in the first place. How the fuck are you hiring 2000 plus people to roll out a AAA game to vet all of em to make sure no one upset someone? lol They will find something else to get triggered by, measure chins, measure eye lashes, she walked a certain way that is agenda, her face is facing a direction, that means agenda too and all sorts of stupid shit.
This is why I support artist not changing shit.
If someone wants to get hurt by a game based on this, they will cry and get triggered over anything, thus can't be helped.
Make your game in peace, if someone doesn't like it, they don't need to buy it. You cannot cater to everyone and I'd argue if you look hard enough, you'll find some damn person hired by a company that this mob will be crying over existing or something, it can't be helped.
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Quantum253
Gold Member
I'm familiar with Bellevue. They may be woke, but generally, outside comments albeit from previous leadership are usually responded to as their opinion not ours. I wouldn't be surprised if SP releases a statement tomorrow or Monday.
Or they might do what Ubisoft is doing and ignore all comments and double-down
DeepSpace5D
Member
Sigh…I said I am at least 4 years old. What does at least mean? At minimum, meaning 4 or greater. I didn’t say I am 4 years old. It’s a silly response to someone that went straight to personal insults asking if I’m born yesterday for what reason exactly? Because I said that in my opinion Shawn’s response was antagonistic towards consumers.
And he does seem more extreme to me than he was before when he was at Sony. I stand by both of those opinions. You and him are free to disagree. But how does that make me born yesterday. Personal insults get responded to with the same lack of substance as they are thrown at me, and rightfully so.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
I mean...you understood his point yet still provided a odd answer that made the joke even funnier lol So...your response didn't really help.
I'm not sure how "extremes" is telling someone to buy a game if they like it or don't buy it if the don't.
You exaggerating this and stretching hard for some whole victimhood thing. If you do not like what they are making, you are free to not buy it. That isn't some wild CRAZY idea or something. The entitlement is strong man, they don't need to cater to shit, if someone dislikes what they are making, tons of games to buy and if someone likes what they are making, they are free to buy it.
I don't see that as an idea to be crying over man..
Cyberpunkd
Member
That’s exactly what it was. A top executive should know better.
Cakeboxer
Member
So would i, IF the person can't potentially harm my business with weird social media posts. Also have you seen here sword training and how unfit she looks? I highly doubt she is the best person for the job.
I can live with that. Some people get triggered by straight white male protagonists, some by female, some by homosexual, some by non whites and i by hiring weirdos and giving them attention.
Nope. There are many things i don't like, but not many that make me don't buy a game if i like the game itself.
David Ricardo
Member
If customers don´t like a product that´s coming next year, the company has two options:
1- Keep the product unchanged and assume the losses of those customers
2- Try to appease the customers by changing the product or explaining how they might be wrong in their perception of what the product is going to be
What Shawn Layden has done here is rule out the latter option, giving customers the impression that they are never going to be heard and their only way of communicating their dissatisfaction is not buying the product.
To me that´s showing very little empathy for sony and their workers, being so careless with his words when he could cost the company millions of dollars and cost many devs losing their jobs if the game bombs
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Moonjt9
No Silksong? = Delivering the pain.
The whole “don’t like it? Don’t buy it,” mantra is so disingenuous. It doesn’t get to the root of people’s complaints, and instead just dismisses them outright.
A lot of the immediate reaction was definitely, “oh no, another woman.” At a surface, yeah, that sounds ridiculous and should be dismissed like the mantra says. However, these kinds of reactions need to be actually understood at a deeper level. Why are people saying that? Reasonable people, the mass consumers you would address as an exec of a company, are not going to shit on a game simply because of a woman protagonist.
Put some effort into understanding the consumers’ reactions. People loved Jin from the first game. Naturally people would want to play as him in a sequel. People are already extremely wary of agendas in video games, and then you see that the actress is giga woke. All of these different feelings get boiled down into an instant simplified reaction of “oh god another girl boss.”
Instead of dismissing the players with “don’t buy it,” why not explain the choice to not have Jin as a main character ? Why not explain that we should trust them to deliver another great story and character like we enjoyed in the first game?
There is WAY too much knee-jerk reaction without consideration for nuance going on in media companies and consumers. The people in charge of communicating need to do a better job at actually communicating and understanding instead of just belittling and dismissing.
A lot of the immediate reaction was definitely, “oh no, another woman.” At a surface, yeah, that sounds ridiculous and should be dismissed like the mantra says. However, these kinds of reactions need to be actually understood at a deeper level. Why are people saying that? Reasonable people, the mass consumers you would address as an exec of a company, are not going to shit on a game simply because of a woman protagonist.
Put some effort into understanding the consumers’ reactions. People loved Jin from the first game. Naturally people would want to play as him in a sequel. People are already extremely wary of agendas in video games, and then you see that the actress is giga woke. All of these different feelings get boiled down into an instant simplified reaction of “oh god another girl boss.”
Instead of dismissing the players with “don’t buy it,” why not explain the choice to not have Jin as a main character ? Why not explain that we should trust them to deliver another great story and character like we enjoyed in the first game?
There is WAY too much knee-jerk reaction without consideration for nuance going on in media companies and consumers. The people in charge of communicating need to do a better job at actually communicating and understanding instead of just belittling and dismissing.
Women make up around 50% of the population. Nobody needs to sit you down to explain why they’ve chosen to go with a female protagonist.
The majority of games still have male leads, so I’m not sure where the logic is to claim ‘social re-engineering’.
‘A lot of gamers suspect…’ is not justification enough. Many of these people are impressionable, gullible clowns.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
nahhh lol Generation too soft and entitled as hell.
Supporting an idea that a consumer is free to buy else where is not this uncommon thing. A lot of you merely think someone needs to bend over backwards, crying to their knees and eat shit any time someone is sobbing over some shit, if they trust their product, trust the market, they will have no issue telling you to just buy somewhere else if that suits your needs.
It means they are offering transparency, showing trust behind their brand and showing support to their developers (something that will literally bring them more developers in the future) As in someone will read this and be happy that he defended the artist choice behind their game and wish to be a part of that when they make something, that they won't just be sent to the fucking wolves and thrown under the bus to appease folks.
So a lot here want the whole karen concept of "OMG, he said DON'T BUY IF YOU NO LIKEZ OOOOOH HEAVENS"
If you fucking walk into a McDonalds and you ask for a pizza and they tell you no, they tell you they don't sell this, they tell you if you do not like what they have, you are free to go to a Pizza place, fuck is McDonalds suppose to do? Fire the employee cause they can't cater to some dumb Karen demand?
They trust they will sell enough Big Macs that Karen will be just fine eating a Pizza.
So if some of you think you can hold a company hostage with tears and Karen shit, that only can go so far within the realm of feasibility of a change that makes sense for all parties.
Good lol
If what they are saying to change a character based on the silliness that I've read, they are free to buy else where. Last thing this company needs to making those choices based on death threats to voice actors.
DeepSpace5D
Member
You are being very presumptuous here my guy. My opinion of Shawn is not based solely on his comment regarding Ghost of Yotei, and I never said it was. The only opinion that I have regarding that is just as I said before. I think it is antagonistic towards consumers and never results in a positive outcome when you tell potential customers, “Don’t like it? Don’t buy it!” For the record, I actually agree with what he is saying, but I also think there is a certain way to speak to potential customers. Especially someone in his position.
I bet you that Sony would prefer he shut the fuck up if they had a say in things, which obviously they don’t.
As far as my opinion of him personally, his Twitter history is there for all to see and I am not going any further than that but if you would like to continue this outside of the thread we can. But you are not going to change my opinion of him I can promise you that.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
lol that doesn't even make any sense.
You telling me if he told you to buy it even if you didn't like it, you would?
David Ricardo
Member
There are plenty of girlboss games and movies crashing and making entertainment companies lose hundreds of millions. If gamers complain about your girlboss game that´s coming next year, I would at least try to understand what they are worried about and make sure there is a demand for the product I´m making
thief183
Member
I'm referring to what happened with Concord (if I'm not wrong) when ppl didn't buy and someone came out and said it was our fault if the game died.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
lol not when Horizon out here moving 25 million units.
I just don't buy that gender ALONE is why any game is failing or something.
So unless you can actually legitimately prove that that reason solely is why some game failed, it merely sounds like something folks are claiming vs proving. Even looking at NeoGaf, even in the poll asking how hype anyone is for Ghost, the vast majority don't even care about what the anti-woke are saying, why would the majority that are not even deep into any of this care?
thief183
Member
I agree with you, but the products we see today are probably in the works for the last 2/3 years it is too late to change naw they are still running the 2/3 years ago trend. I think we will se a change in direction in another 2/3 years.
genesisblock
Member
Ok, so you agree with his statement.
E3 2015. The legendary showcase.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
I mean sure, but it still sounds odd cause it not like you buying every game he says to buy for this to ever make sense.
Agreed.
I think if any major change will happen, it won't really be reflected now
DeepSpace5D
Member
Oh super legendary. Do you think Hermen wouldn’t have greenlit those games also though? Wasn’t E3 2015 when Horizon: Zero Dawn was revealed for the first time? That was Hermen’s studio.
genesisblock
Member
Doesn't matter. He didn't do anything equivalent this gen when he became the CEO. Him leading the studio of Horizon has no bearing on his leadership of managing the worldwide studios to which he clearly fumbled. Greenlighting Concord will remain a stain in his career.
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DeepSpace5D
Member
Has it been confirmed that Hermen was the one who greenlit Concord?
midnightAI
Banned
Not only did hardly anyone complain many thought these were the best characters in the game, maybe Sucker Punch saw that feedback and decided maybe it should be a female warrior next (maybe loads wanted a Yuna DLC, I know I did and as I mentioned, I half expected Ghost of Tsushima 2 to be her)
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
The issue is that complaining at this point makes you look like a culture warrior. And most people -certainly those with a public profile- understand that commenting on the complaint is going to draw them into the firing line.
Layden's comment is carefully neutral for that reason.
I'd also add that there's absolutely no way they are going to switch the creative at this stage when so much work has already been done, its just not going to happen on a game like this! Its not like the protagonist in a game like this can be simply swapped out!
Layden's comment is carefully neutral for that reason.
I'd also add that there's absolutely no way they are going to switch the creative at this stage when so much work has already been done, its just not going to happen on a game like this! Its not like the protagonist in a game like this can be simply swapped out!
Most of their playerbase don't give a fuck. It's the loud weirdos who can't stand playing as a woman they're talking to.
kyussman
Member
Two big Samurai games on the way,number of protags three : 2 women
1 black man
0 Japanese men
Yea,certainly no agenda in place here,no ideology working behind the scenes here guys,nothing to see stop being such a bunch of sissies,lol.They can stick their ideologically driven bullshit up their arses.
1 black man
0 Japanese men
Yea,certainly no agenda in place here,no ideology working behind the scenes here guys,nothing to see stop being such a bunch of sissies,lol.They can stick their ideologically driven bullshit up their arses.
Stu_Hart
Banned
Antagonistic towards consumer? He hasn't been working with sony for years. How does this affect a consumer? He is just as much of a random person as me and you. When layden was running playstation, he acknowledged sony's past arrogance and tried his best to be more welcoming to both devs and consumers. I have seen his twitter post, and just because he has some flag in his profile that you don't like, occasionally makes comment on politics that is left-leaning, doesn't mean he is a bad person. I have never seen any egregious content. This is the problem with people taking sides with no in-betweens (you).
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Tiago Rodrigues
Member
So...it doesn't matter to you that the woman in question is japanese? lmao what a joke.
Imagine in 2024 controlling a woman in a game being considered "having an agenda"
DeepSpace5D
Member
I’m well aware he doesn’t work for Sony anymore. What exactly is unclear to you in my comment? He is still a prominent figure in the gaming industry.
If I have to reiterate it again, the “don’t like it, don’t buy it” is just not the right way to go about speaking to gamers. I think it can be worded much better and saying it in that way is antagonistic. It’s pretty much daring people not to pick it up, or at least that’s how I think many will take it.
And like I said previously I’m not going into it further with the Twitter stuff. There is a no politics rule here as far as I’m aware. It’s my opinion at the end of the day and I’m glad he’s gone from Sony.
kyussman
Member
I guess we see the world through very different lenses.....that's fine.
lifa-cobex
Member
Do these folk not do any market research?
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Stu_Hart
Banned
Oh how the goal post shifts. After getting exposed, it's not consumers but gamers now, huh?
He is now a random person, understood?
DeepSpace5D
Member
Gamers, consumers. I’m talking about the same thing. Do gamers not buy games?
How is that moving the goalpost?
He is a random person? I don’t even know wtf you are talking about anymore. No he is a well known person in the gaming industry. But if in your head you need to feel like I’ve been “exposed” then have at it. This is getting a little tiring honestly.
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Stu_Hart
Banned
I can be a gamer and not a consumer.
Gamers, consumers. I’m talking about the same thing. Do gamers not buy games?
How is that moving the goalpost?
He is a random person? I don’t even know wtf you are talking about anymore. No he is a well known person in the gaming industry. But if in your head you need to feel like I’ve been “exposed” then have at it. This is getting a little tiring honestly.
DeepSpace5D
Member
…Ok you have officially lost your right to ask anyone if they were born yesterday ever again.
blue velvet
Member
Not really but I'll use that term whenever a Sony game flops or underperform.
Stu_Hart
Banned
You don't give rights to anything, you are nothing to me. I am not insulting you, just telling it like it is in case you get triggered again.
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