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[OsirisBlack]

Yeah, for me The Howling (1981) is still unsurpassed in the genre, and it's kinda depressing the 80's werewolf flicks still top everything that's been done since. I think the last vampire flick, that managed to make the creatures somewhat fearsome, was 30 Days of Night, and it's because they were more bestial than the usual gothic kind. If the game features vampires, I hope they'll portray them in a similar manner, instead of the Underworld style.

The Howling is still my absolute favorite werewolf movie of all time we have similar taste I also loved 30 days of night. I would suggest Afflicted for a very interesting take on modern day vampires. There is one scene that I will not spoil for you that is pretty scary and has amazing creature design. I feel like that is the direction RAD would head in if they were to put them in this game and it is awesome. It undoes some of the damage done by the sparkly emo modern vampire that is shoved down our throats at every turn.

 

[Melchiah]

The Howling is still my absolute favorite werewolf movie of all time we have similar taste I also loved 30 days of night. I would suggest Afflicted for a very interesting take on modern day vampires. There is one scene that I will not spoil for you that is pretty scary and has amazing creature design. I feel like that is the direction RAD would head in if they were to put them in this game and it is awesome. It undoes some of the damage done by the sparkly emo modern vampire that is shoved down our throats at every turn.

An American Werewolf in London and Dog Soldiers are also good werewolf films. The one thing that ruins many modern films is the use of CGI, which is why I wish they'd stick with practical effects like the good old ones.

I'll have to check out Afflicted. Thanks for the tip.

 

[chrishackwood]

I like the direction they are taking with the creature design. Just hope it leads to dynamic encounters that don't play out the same way twice. I want to battle these things in cavanous rooms like libraries, or wool factory's that get destroyed as you progress through the battle, like being on the recieving end of a batman attack stricking suddenly out of the darkness.

For me the scaryness comes from the human aspect of the monster, that you realise this thing still has a bit of humanity left but it's been consumed by primal forces (think Jeff Goldblum in The Fly).

 

[SmokedMeat]

Personally my favorite werewolf flick is American Werewolf in London. Great movie, and I agree that CGI is usually a bad thing.

I also really dug the look of the werewolves in Dog Soldiers. Another decent one was I believe Bad Moon or Blood Moon. The one based on the book from the family dog's perspective.

Also surprised no mentions of Ginger Snaps as that's a pretty popular werewolf flick among fans.

 

[Melchiah]

Personally my favorite werewolf flick is American Werewolf in London. Great movie, and I agree that CGI is usually a bad thing.

I also really dug the look of the werewolves in Dog Soldiers. Another decent one was I believe Bad Moon or Blood Moon. The one based on the book from the family dog's perspective.

Also surprised no mentions of Ginger Snaps as that's a pretty popular werewolf flick among fans.

Ginger Snaps is pretty good as well, but I wouldn't personally rank it up there with the three others I mentioned. I think I've seen Bad Moon years ago, but I don't remember much of it. The Stephen King adaptation Silver Bullet isn't bad either.

 

[Jaradakar]

Are we really going to bring the N words into this for comparison? Really?

Fine. What terminology friends in social circle use for each other is none of of my concern. I have general issue with the word 'nigger' for the same reason Richard Pryor went sour on the word: it's a term used to describe wretchedness. If two friends want to call each other nigger, then that's one thing. That does not make it an acceptable term to be used in general conversation, and I would take HUGE issue with any game that presented their fantasy non-human enemies as 'Niggers', though that would be more overtly racist than unfortunate implication as with half-breed.

Half-breed still has useage as a racist term, as shown by the fact that people still get offended when others use it. Same for the term half-caste (which had a very famous poem written about it). Implying that people are only half-human in some way is insulting, and the word has a long and ignoble history. It may not be put out in propaganda leaflets like it was in the days of the KKK, but it's still an insulting term to this day. RAD would have been better off at least bearing that context in mind.



http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Half-breed

The term is used in-universe by people working for Voldemort, and Dolores Umbridge, all of whom are presented as villains. It's clearly implied as a racially motivated insult, just like the real life term.

So it's okay for Harry Potter, but not other fictional works?

 

[Carnby]

What does a werewolf look like?

 

[RoboPlato]

Can you point out a website or two that was clearly positive? Everyone I know who had a Sony appointment at E3 wasn't too thrilled about what they played.

I have friends that went to E3 that played it, said it was great and most GAF impressions from those that played the demo were positive. Those words mean far more to me than websites' do.

 

[TitusGroan]

So it's okay for Harry Potter, but not other fictional works?

...sigh.

Harry Potter presents the term unambiguously as an insult. The Order does not.

 

[RoboPlato]

...sigh.

Harry Potter presents the term unambiguously as an insult. The Order does not.

Half-breed has been a common term in nearly everything I've read involving werewolves.

 

[Carnby]

Unfortunate choice of word to describe werewolves, but oh well... I guess it's too late for that to be changed at this point. Still, for such a heavy focus on narrative, it's strange no-one thought to maybe bring up the fact that using half-breed to describe the sub-human enemies in game could be problematic...

In a video game about werewolves, I am not offended by the use of this word, at all.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

...sigh.

Harry Potter presents the term unambiguously as an insult. The Order does not.

You think the humans call the werewolves half-breeds as a term of endearment? Maybe I missed something earlier in the thread, but I am assuming that in the world of The Order, "half-breed" is used as a label for a threatening outgroup, perhaps with the intent of dehumanizing them. Is there reason to think this is way off base?

Also, whatever it is meant to imply, it's hard for me to get upset about it because half-breed, unlike "nigger," doesn't refer to any specific group of people. Therefore, it's historical use as a term for general racial impurity doesn't strike me as off limits for use in a fictional context. In fact, it seems entirely appropriate to the fiction. These people would call werewolves half-breeds.

 

[OneLetter]

-PICTURE-

Man, I'm even wearing the same shoes today.

I'm so glad our game is making folks talk about The Howling. It's my top werewolf movie behind Teen Wolf, because I still wonder how many kids nearly killed themselves trying to emulate road surfing on an awesome van after that movie came out.

We still have more to reveal about the Lycans, since I've been getting a ton of questions after yesterday's video reveal and our E3 Sony presser video. Keep those questions coming, helps to ensure we can answer queries without spoiling too much of the story.

 

[Nafai1123]

...sigh.

Harry Potter presents the term unambiguously as an insult. The Order does not.

We don't know whether the term is used unambiguously as an insult in The Order, because we know nothing about the narrative of The Order. Considering that RAD pushed hard in the video that these half-breeds are as intelligent, if not more intelligent than humans, it could lead to some very interesting narrative opportunities that we know nothing about at this point. I would not say that using the term is unfortunate, when we know only the basics about how the term is used in the context of the game. For all we know, the character you are playing could be another form of half-breed.

 

[TitusGroan]

You think the humans call the werewolves half-breeds as a term of endearment? Maybe I missed something earlier in the thread, but I am assuming that in the world of The Order, "half-breed" is used as a label for a threatening outgroup, perhaps with the intent of dehumanizing them. Is there reason to think this is way off base?

Also, whatever it is meant to imply, it's hard for me to get upset about it because half-breed, unlike "nigger," doesn't refer to any specific group of people. Therefore, it's historical use as a term for general racial impurity doesn't strike me as off limits for use in a fictional context. In fact, it seems entirely appropriate to the fiction. These people would call werewolves half-breeds.

The fact that the developers themselves use the term is what strikes me here, as I said before. Having characters use racially charged language to suggest flawed or morally grey characterisation is one thing. Developers themselves referring to the enemies as 'half-breeds' is another, as if they intended the language to be racially charged, why would they use it themselves?

Just to make clear by way of an example: JK Rowling wrote characters who used the term half-breed to describe other characters. She herself would never use the term half-breed to describe a character. Because you can't make a criticism of using racially motivated language if you then use that language yourself.

Now, I don't think this is a difficult point I originally made, and it's sad that so many people have jumped at me here. My original point is that the term has history as a term of racial abuse, and it is still recognisable as such today. I am not saying that RAD are racists, but I am questioning their judgement in throwing around a term that has the history this one does. Obviously it doesn't compare to a term like 'nigger', but that's an unfair comparison. Very few words present the same moral quagmire that 'nigger' does. That doesn't mean we shouldn't question the intent or placement of other questionable terminology when used in media and entertainment. When creating enemies who share characteristics with humans, it is a good idea to avoid using the same terminology for them that has been used by racists against real minorities in the past, unless you have a very specific and subversive statement that you are trying to make through character use of said terminology. The fact the developers use the term themselves to describe the werewolves suggests to me that that is not their intent. So I wish they had either made clearer their reason for using the term they selected, or that they had thought more carefully about using such a loaded term.

Others are free to disagree, and that's fine. I am simply giving my opinion here as someone who has seen racism first hand, and doesn't like it when loaded terms are thrown around willy nilly. Rather than dragging what was originally just a small observation into yet another extended dialogue about the semantics of racism and whether terminology from the 19th century can still be racist, I would prefer if we can agree to disagree on this issue. If you have no problem with a game labelling werewolves as half-breeds, then that's fine, and I hope you enjoy the game when it comes out. I'm going to keep an eye on it and see if any clarification on this issue emerges, and hopefully that'll better explain the developers' intentions.

 

[HORRORSHØW]

Yeah buy guys "blackwater" ... "BLACKwater" black, guys, black! Like black people?!!

don't forget about the black bars.

@TitusGroan:

i understand your sentiments and concerns, but i think you're taking things out of context, particularly when we know next to nothing about the narrative design of the game. as things stand right now, the term "half-breed" is used solely to describe the half-wolf, half-man hybrids. how that can be misconstrued as something racist is reaching on your part. also, just because you are "someone who has seen racism first hand" doesn't make you an authority on the subject. maybe if you're of mixed heritage, and have experienced racism first hand with "half-breed" thrown your way as an insult, maybe then you can speak on the subject from a non-ignorant point of view. even then, arguing against the term "half- breed" in the contextual design of the game is reaching.

 

[TitusGroan]

don't forget about the black bars.

@TitusGroan:

i understand your sentiments and concerns, but i think you're taking things out of context, particularly when we know next to nothing about the narrative design of the game. as things stand right now, the term "half-breed" is used solely to describe the half-wolf, half-man hybrids. how that can be misconstrued as something racist is reaching on your part. also, just because you are "someone who has seen racism first hand" doesn't make you an authority on the subject. maybe if you're of mixed heritage, and have experienced racism first hand with "half-breed" thrown your way as an insult, maybe then you can speak on the subject from a non-ignorant point of view. even then, arguing against the term "half- breed" in the contextual design of the game is reaching.

Again... characters using the term in-game as a narrative design decision is one thing. Developers using the term themselves to describe the characters is another. I am not stretching to say that it's something racist on the part of the developers, I am pointing out that whether or not the developers intended it, it is a racist term. I don't see how this is an issue. It is clearly and demonstrably a term with real world history as a racial slur. I am not saying that the developers are racist for using it in interviews, simply that perhaps they could have given more thought or clarity on why they chose the word. If they intended the term to be racially charged in-game, then they could have shed light on that, and why they use the term in interviews.

You can say that someone is using racist terminology without saying that they are racist themselves, which is the point I tried to make from the start. The developers are using a term with racist history, a term that is now used as part of the title of this very thread. A few generations ago, 'the evolution of the half-breeds' would have meant something much darker and more uncomfortable, and though it may not be as in fashion as a term, it still has that connotation. Whatever the intentions were of the developers, it still has that connotation.

If you think that's not a point worth raising, then I guess there's nothing to discuss, as clearly we fundamentally disagree on this topic.

 

[Oppo]

And on that note, I'm bowing out. I've explained my thoughts here, there's nothing else I can possibly add to it.

.

So, there's an emphasis in this video about real time transformations "with no cheats". That sort of hints that the player characters can potentially change in game. We know for sure that there's no multi in this, right?

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

.

So, there's an emphasis in this video about real time transformations "with no cheats". That sort of hints that the player characters can potentially change in game. We know for sure that there's no multi in this, right?

'Multi' as in 'multicultural'? nah, it's too racist for that.

 

[HORRORSHØW]

If you think that's not a point worth raising, then I guess there's nothing to discuss, as clearly we fundamentally disagree on this topic.

again--you're missing the fundamental flaw in your reasoning--context is king. you seem to understand that, though, because you acknowledge that you don't know exactly how the developers are using that word.

i'm of the mindset that just because a word has history attached to it, it doesn't preclude its usage from our lexicon, particularly if that word or term isn't exclusively racist like "nigger" is. sure, "half-breed" has been used to describe people of mixed heritage, and its origins are derogatory; but its usage through history has had other, less harmful connotations as well.

i don't know; maybe simply calling the monsters a "hybrid" would be more politically correct. then again, there might be people up in arms over that implication, too.

 

[R_Deckard]

Man, I'm even wearing the same shoes today.

I'm so glad our game is making folks talk about The Howling. It's my top werewolf movie behind Teen Wolf, because I still wonder how many kids nearly killed themselves trying to emulate road surfing on an awesome van after that movie came out.

We still have more to reveal about the Lycans, since I've been getting a ton of questions after yesterday's video reveal and our E3 Sony presser video. Keep those questions coming, helps to ensure we can answer queries without spoiling too much of the story.

Thanks alot for making this game, as a long time fan of such great Werewolf films like The Howling, who can forget the "let me give you a piece of my mind" scene...Awesome and Rick Baker confirmed king of the Werewolf with this and American Werewolf in london, just not enough love for the Lycans and I so excited about you bringing them back.

Tell me we also get more transformation scenes like the E3 reveal, I love that and I think the design and intelligence is hella scary and bang on!

So does the game explain how this "divide" happened or is that all part of the mythology that will run throughout the series?

Again... characters using the term in-game as a narrative design decision is one thing. Developers using the term themselves to describe the characters is another. I am not stretching to say that it's something racist on the part of the developers, I am pointing out that whether or not the developers intended it, it is a racist term. I don't see how this is an issue. It is clearly and demonstrably a term with real world history as a racial slur. I am not saying that the developers are racist for using it in interviews, simply that perhaps they could have given more thought or clarity on why they chose the word. If they intended the term to be racially charged in-game, then they could have shed light on that, and why they use the term in interviews.

No its not, it is because you make it so in your VIEW. It is no more racist that saying a Foreigner which some people make take as offensive but it is simply a statement of fact based on locality.

I am perplexed as to why you are creating a big issue about a term used to describe a factual statement in a fantasy context, if you pulled apart all stories like this the Elfs and dwarfs from The Hobbit are offending many, I think you have got yourself all worked up over an issue that seems to not exist?

 

[TitusGroan]

No its not, it is because you make it so in your VIEW. It is no more racist that saying a Foreigner which some people make take as offensive but it is simply a statement of fact based on locality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-breed

I am perplexed as to why you are creating a big issue about a term used to describe a factual statement in a fantasy context, if you pulled apart all stories like this the Elfs and dwarfs from The Hobbit are offending many, I think you have got yourself all worked up over an issue that seems to not exist?

The words elf and hobbit don't have the real world connotations half-breed does.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

The fact that the developers themselves use the term is what strikes me here, as I said before. Having characters use racially charged language to suggest flawed or morally grey characterisation is one thing. Developers themselves referring to the enemies as 'half-breeds' is another, as if they intended the language to be racially charged, why would they use it themselves?

Just to make clear by way of an example: JK Rowling wrote characters who used the term half-breed to describe other characters. She herself would never use the term half-breed to describe a character. Because you can't make a criticism of using racially motivated language if you then use that language yourself.

Now, I don't think this is a difficult point I originally made, and it's sad that so many people have jumped at me here. My original point is that the term has history as a term of racial abuse, and it is still recognisable as such today. I am not saying that RAD are racists, but I am questioning their judgement in throwing around a term that has the history this one does. Obviously it doesn't compare to a term like 'nigger', but that's an unfair comparison. Very few words present the same moral quagmire that 'nigger' does. That doesn't mean we shouldn't question the intent or placement of other questionable terminology when used in media and entertainment. When creating enemies who share characteristics with humans, it is a good idea to avoid using the same terminology for them that has been used by racists against real minorities in the past, unless you have a very specific and subversive statement that you are trying to make through character use of said terminology. The fact the developers use the term themselves to describe the werewolves suggests to me that that is not their intent. So I wish they had either made clearer their reason for using the term they selected, or that they had thought more carefully about using such a loaded term.

Others are free to disagree, and that's fine. I am simply giving my opinion here as someone who has seen racism first hand, and doesn't like it when loaded terms are thrown around willy nilly. Rather than dragging what was originally just a small observation into yet another extended dialogue about the semantics of racism and whether terminology from the 19th century can still be racist, I would prefer if we can agree to disagree on this issue. If you have no problem with a game labelling werewolves as half-breeds, then that's fine, and I hope you enjoy the game when it comes out. I'm going to keep an eye on it and see if any clarification on this issue emerges, and hopefully that'll better explain the developers' intentions.

Okay, I have a much better grasp of your perspective now.

I still don't personally find even the developer's use of the term problematic, however. While the word does have racist connotations and history, it has also been used extensively in fantasy writing (I'm sort of assuming here, I haven't read all fantasy writing, obviously). So the word now has two histories, and it's use doesn't necessarily have to be related back to that racist lineage.

I also maintain that its generality as a racist term makes it far less problematic, however its used, than a specific term for a specific group. For me it's the difference between being offended by something that brings up the mere idea of racism vs. a direct racist attack on an individual or group.

 

[The Tofunator]

So is anybody else thinking there's going to be more to the half-breeds than just being enemies? The way the developers describe maintaining human attributes with the transformation, and what I've read about their history, seems to indicate that there will be some kind of sympathetic angle to them.

In the game's history, around the seventh or eighth centuries a small number of humans took on bestial traits. The majority of humans feared these half breeds and war broke out.

At the very least, I can't imagine every last half-breed having the same aggressive and supremacist mentality we've seen from the only half-breed we saw in the footage.

 

[DireStr8s]

The werewolf in Thriller is my favorite design.

 

[kyser73]

Hey Titus - why don't you tweet RAD about it, and see what they say?

 

[FloweryMarston]

sounds great!

 

[Loakum]

The werewolf in Thriller is my favorite design.

It was aight.

 

[OsirisBlack]

Man, I'm even wearing the same shoes today.

I'm so glad our game is making folks talk about The Howling. It's my top werewolf movie behind Teen Wolf, because I still wonder how many kids nearly killed themselves trying to emulate road surfing on an awesome van after that movie came out.

We still have more to reveal about the Lycans, since I've been getting a ton of questions after yesterday's video reveal and our E3 Sony presser video. Keep those questions coming, helps to ensure we can answer queries without spoiling too much of the story.

Thank you all very much for making this game I cannot wait to play it. Also any word on who is doing the musical score? The music from the newest trailer gave me chills absolutely beautiful.

I love how the Lycans retain their intelligence as I feel that makes them much more human and more terrifying. I am also really curious as to Mr.Weerasuriya's comment "that particular species of half breeds" has really piqued my curiosity.

Hopefully you all keep that a secret until the game ships Kudos on what looks to be an amazing game.

 

[spwolf]

Again... characters using the term in-game as a narrative design decision is one thing. Developers using the term themselves to describe the characters is another. I am not stretching to say that it's something racist on the part of the developers, I am pointing out that whether or not the developers intended it, it is a racist term. I don't see how this is an issue. It is clearly and demonstrably a term with real world history as a racial slur. I am not saying that the developers are racist for using it in interviews, simply that perhaps they could have given more thought or clarity on why they chose the word. If they intended the term to be racially charged in-game, then they could have shed light on that, and why they use the term in interviews.

You can say that someone is using racist terminology without saying that they are racist themselves, which is the point I tried to make from the start. The developers are using a term with racist history, a term that is now used as part of the title of this very thread. A few generations ago, 'the evolution of the half-breeds' would have meant something much darker and more uncomfortable, and though it may not be as in fashion as a term, it still has that connotation. Whatever the intentions were of the developers, it still has that connotation.

If you think that's not a point worth raising, then I guess there's nothing to discuss, as clearly we fundamentally disagree on this topic.

what exactly would they have to clarify about why they used word half-breed for describing a creature thats half human and half werewolf?

and why would be calling a werewolf a half-breed be offensive for people of american-indian/white origin? It is a werewolf, self explanatory and not something anyone would indentify with. Not to mention that every fiction book uses that term as well.

i dont see how anyone will feel threatened about calling half-breed between men and wolf a half-breed, but at the same time, i dont think it is appropriate when you feel comfortable throwing "n" word around the forums. Thats way more offensive that worrying about a term used 300 years ago.

 

[El-Pistolero]

The werewolvs in Dog Soldiers are some of the best I have seen in cinema, and the whole movie is a blast from start to finish. An American Werewolf in London has the best transformation scene of the genre though, by a mile (Thank Rick Baker).

 

[Creaking]

It was aight.

The eyes and whiskers just make me think kitty cat. Ears certainly help that effect too.

 

[benny_a]

I already thought The Order was racist for using black bars, but I've thought a little bit more about it and the aspect ratio that is employed reminds me of how asian people are stereotyped in modern media where the eyes have greater emphasis on the horizontal lines vs. the emphasis on vertical separation between the eyes when drawing western characters.

I mean one instance of being racist could be just because they are not sensitive to these issues, but they doubled down and thought 16:9 in regular 1080p TVs wasn't racist enough, so we gotta racist that shit up even further is proof positive that they are being deliberate.

 

[kyser73]

I already thought The Order was racist for using black bars, but I've thought a little bit more about it and the aspect ratio that is employed reminds me of how asian people are stereotyped in modern media where the eyes have greater emphasis on the horizontal lines vs. the emphasis on vertical separation between the eyes when drawing western characters.

I mean one instance of being racist could be just because they are not sensitive to these issues, but they doubled down and thought 16:9 in regular 1080p TVs wasn't racist enough, so we gotta racist that shit up even further is proof positive that they are being deliberate.

By choosing lycans, who are wolves, who eat goats, they're being racist against goats too.

 

[Zetta]

I already thought The Order was racist for using black bars, but I've thought a little bit more about it and the aspect ratio that is employed reminds me of how asian people are stereotyped in modern media where the eyes have greater emphasis on the horizontal lines vs. the emphasis on vertical separation between the eyes when drawing western characters.

I mean one instance of being racist could be just because they are not sensitive to these issues, but they doubled down and thought 16:9 in regular 1080p TVs wasn't racist enough, so we gotta racist that shit up even further is proof positive that they are being deliberate.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

ITT: People grasping at straws to hate on this game.

OT: It looks fantastic and I'm gonna buy it.

 

[Neuromancer]

Can you point out a website or two that was clearly positive? Everyone I know who had a Sony appointment at E3 wasn't too thrilled about what they played.

Jeff Cannata at 5x5 loved it, he thought it was also the most impressive next gen game he's seen.

Somehow I'm not surprised you didn't like it though.

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

It's ridiculous really, there weren't any blackbars in London 1886 because it was too racist.

 

[grimlock442]

Agree with the poster above about The Howling and 30 Days of Night. I personally can't wait to play this cinematic, widescreen, dripping with old London, horror action game.

The Order is going to be huge huge huge.

 

[viveks86]

The next time anyone uses any of these words, regardless of context, I will be offended. Remove them from your diction right now. You have been warned.

Ape
Apple
Banana
Brownie
Charlie
Chug
Coconut
Crow
Frog
Paddy
Shine
Skinny
Skip
Spook
Teapot

Oh, and it goes without saying, the color black is permanently banned from usage. We shall hereby call it RGB(0,0,0)

 

[TheKingOfPain]

Discriminating racists is racist.

 

[Sioen]

What happened to this thread lol

 

[jpd1408]

I'm loving the concept of this game. But I'm hoping this game has more lore in it then wear wolves such as vampires etc. it would be awesome for us to think we are playing a wear wolf game and then bam swamp monsters appear. 3 acts bad wear wolf, hungry vampire, maybe aliens?

Yes I know I'm out there but I want this game to become a franchise

 

[Nafai1123]

What happened to this thread lol

Are you implying this thread is inferior to other threads!?

 

[Acquiescence]

What happened to this thread lol

This is standard protocol for an Order thread. The game's got 99 problems, and Gaf will list all of them.

 

[Loudninja]

Hey guys whats...

I am so confused.