PoliGAF 2016 |OT5| Archdemon Hillary Clinton vs. Lice Traffic Jam

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excelsiorlef said:
Man Sanders would have some interesting issues in the GE, turns out he only pays is Senate interns 12$ (which is actually pretty cool a lot of interns don't get paid period) but it's still a funny image of a guy calling for 15$ an hour not paying that. Find it also kinda ironic that he pays why Clinton has generally been calling for.

He'd have to explain it, but he'd still have to explain out loud and repeatedly why if he's for 15$ an hour he doesn't live by it.
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The $15/hr is not instantaneous. The interns are being paid what the starting wage would be under his policy, which is $12/hr.
 
brainchild said:
The $15/hr is not instantaneous. The interns are being paid what the starting wage would be under his policy, which is $12/hr.
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Yes but it is only non instantaneous because a huge leap like that would be too hard for the economy to take not because 15$ isn't what it actually should be right now.

But you're right of course. I just want to make it clear I'm not arguing he;s doing anything wrong, just merely that in a GE when all bet are off, his platform and behaviour puts a lot of things on the table that normally wouldn't be with a candidate that doesn't present themselves the way Sanders does.
 
excelsiorlef said:
Yes but it is only non instantaneous because a huge leap like that would be too hard for the economy to take not because 15$ isn't what it actually should be right now.
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My point is that they are getting paid the same amount that minimum wage workers would be getting paid in the first year increase on the minimum wage under his policy.

I don't see how that's remotely hypocritical.
 
brainchild said:
My point is that they are getting paid the same amount that minimum wage workers would be getting paid in the first year increase on the minimum wage under his policy.

I don't see how that's remotely hypocritical.
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But like I said that's because the economy couldn't handle that many people getting that huge of a raise, not because people won't need 15$ an hour until 2020.

Living by example and all that jazz.

And see my edit above just for further idea of what I'm exploring here.

I'll fully admit I'm suffering from insomnia right now and just exploring a thought experiment. Like I said Sanders pays his interns, not many people do so big ups for him on that one.
 
hawk2025 said:
https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/726894495946657794



I feel like Bernie's talking to me :(

You also don't need a PhD to predict that a $15 minimum wage will do fuck-all for standards of living if we don't buy products produced elsewhere at $5/hr.

Bernie's economics knowledge is close to zero.
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Wasn't obamacare supposed to be singlepayer? And he got less than he wanted.

Same shit with bernie's 15 min wage and Trump's dumb wall. They would get less than they asked but still better than nothing and they would be happy with it.
 
excelsiorlef said:
But like I said that's because the economy couldn't handle that many people getting that huge of a raise, not because people won't need 15$ an hour until 2020.

Living by example and all that jazz.

And see my edit above just for further idea of what I'm exploring here.

I'll fully admit I'm suffering from insomnia right now and just exploring a thought experiment. Like I said Sanders pays his interns, not many people do so big ups for him on that one.
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I fully understand why the rollout would be incremental, but I don't see why Bernie should pay interns more than what they would actually be paid under his policy just because the economic burden isn't the same. They are interns after all.

Now, if they were regular employees, your point of observation would carry more weight, as he should be paying them more than the minimum if he believes that a living wage starts at $15/hr.
 
CCS said:
Are you serious?

From the most recent year we have numbers:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31140919
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I think so.
Listen I'm Jewish, I'm in the UK usually 2-3 times a year and I have a ton of Jewish friends there, I don't really get the sense that it's a huge problem there. Even that report (and I'm not over familiar with the CST, but organizations like this in the US tend to overreport the shit out of those things, that's how they get their money) I don't know man, racism sucks and you must have zero tolerance at such things, but it's mostly shouting racial slurs, writing offensive graffiti and throwing eggs at cars. There are handful (literally, never more than 5 a year this century) of actual violent attacks against jews a year, it's terrible, but I really don't think being a Jew in the UK is terribly dangerous nor do I think anti-semitism is a huge concern for Jewish people living there (FWIW it's definitely not a concern to me when I'm visiting or to my friends who live there).

But that's besides the point really, we were talking about Ken Livingstone, still not sure how he or even Naz Shah (if we're going to inception that shit) are anti-semites.
Again, I'm not super familiar with everything they said, I'm pretty much going by the link you provided me from The Guardian, so feel free to educate me on the issue.
 
Chichikov said:
I think so.
Listen I'm Jewish, I'm in the UK usually 2-3 times a year and I have a ton of Jewish friends there, I don't really get the sense that it's a huge problem there. Even that report (and I'm not over familiar with the CST, but organizations like this in the US tend to overreport the shit out of those things, that's how they get their money) I don't know man, racism sucks and you must have zero tolerance at such things, but it's mostly shouting racial slurs, writing offensive graffiti and throwing eggs at cars. There are handful (literally, never more than 5 a year this century) of actual violent attacks against jews a year, it's terrible, but I really don't think being a Jew in the UK is terribly dangerous nor do I think anti-semitism is a huge concern for Jewish people living there (FWIW it's definitely not a concern to me when I'm visiting or to my friends who live there).

But that's besides the point really, we were talking about Ken Livingstone, still not sure how he or even Naz Shah (if we're going to inception that shit) are anti-semites.
Again, I'm not super familiar with everything they said, I'm pretty much going by the link you provided me from The Guardian, so feel free to educate me on the issue.
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I guess a lot of it comes from the fact that just reading between the lines, I feel like a lot of the left in the UK use anti-Zionism to cover anti-Semitism. There's not a whole lot of evidence I can point to, but it's just the tone that a lot of conversations I've had or witnessed seem to have.
 
CCS said:
I guess a lot of it comes from the fact that just reading between the lines, I feel like a lot of the left in the UK use anti-Zionism to cover anti-Semitism. There's not a whole lot of evidence I can point to, but it's just the tone that a lot of conversations I've had or witnessed seem to have.
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And I think there is much more evidence to the opposite - that people try to paint any (or at least many) criticism of Israel as anti-semitism, I even provided some in this thread. From everything I read here, it seem this is another case.

I can change my mind on this point if some evidence is presented to me, not sure I can do it without it.

If we're talking anecdotal evidence here, I have talked to many left wing British people, some of them what would be called far left and I have never noticed anything of that sort (and I don't hide the fact that I'm Jewish).
 
I would say that in the ranks of the organized left, particularly trade unions, the Palestinian plight seems to take up far more time and attention than it should do. My local unison branch, like most, campaigns on it regularly. It doesn't do the same for international conflicts, and it always seemed odd that subscriptions for Uk workers would be spent campaigning and lobbying on Gaza and Palestine. Nothing similar was done when Russia invaded the Ukraine, or the Arab Spring conflicts, etc etc,
 
Chichikov said:
And I think there is much more evidence to the opposite - that people try to paint any (or at least many) criticism of Israel as anti-semitism, I even provided some in this thread. From everything I read here, it seem this is another case.

I can change my mind on this point if some evidence is presented to me, not sure I can do it without it.

If we're talking anecdotal evidence here, I have talked to many left wing British people, some of them what would be called far left and I have never noticed anything of that sort (and I don't hide the fact that I'm Jewish).
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I suppose my view is coloured by the fact that the Labour society at my university has been in the press for some fairly blatant anti-semitism that many hid behind anti-Zionism (http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...sity-antisemitism-jewish-progressive-politics)

EDIT: Further, it is worth pointing out that part of the reason I am unwilling to give Livingstone the benefit of the doubt is that him and Corbyn have a history of being less than perfect when it comes to anti-Semitism. For example, Corbyn took tea on the parliamentary terrace with Raed Salah, who he described as “a very honoured citizen”. Salah was found guilty in court of spreading the blood libel against Jews.
 
CCS said:
I suppose my view is coloured by the fact that the Labour society at my university has been in the press for some fairly blatant anti-semitism that many hid behind anti-Zionism (http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...sity-antisemitism-jewish-progressive-politics)
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I think going from some uni-kids spout some hateful and racist bullshit in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to Ken Livingstone is an anti-semite is a bit of a leap.
I don't know man, there are racist people out there for sure, some of them are in the labour party for sure, but I'm really not sure I'm seeing a whole lot of convincing evidence that labour has an anti-semitism problem (outside this PR issue which is real of course).
And I certainly can't think of a single policy that Labour passed or advocated that could be considered remotely anti-semitic.

Like, how do you think it would manifest itself if they were ever put into power?
Sure, they might be less pro-Israel, they're almost certainly will be less lenient with the settlements and the occupation of the West Bank, but I think if you believe these are wrong positions to take you should argue that point on its merit, not because you think some people advocate that due to racism, especially when you have very little evidence to support that.
 
Trump: 'We can't continue to allow China to rape our country'

Donald Trump ratcheted up his language toward China on Sunday, remarking at one point in a rally that the country is committing "rape" against the United States when it comes to the trade imbalance between the two nations.

"Don't forget. We're like the piggybank that's being robbed. We have the cards. We have a lot of power with China," Trump told an audience in Fort Wayne, Indiana. "When China doesn't want to fix the problem in North Korea, we say, 'Sorry, folks, you gotta fix the problem.' Because we can't continue to allow China to rape our country. And that's what they're doing. It's the greatest theft in the history of the world."
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Chichikov said:
I think going from some uni-kids spout some hateful and racist bullshit in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to Ken Livingstone is an anti-semite is a bit of a leap.
I don't know man, there are racist people out there for sure, some of them are in the labour party for sure, but I'm really not sure I'm seeing a whole lot of convincing evidence that labour has an anti-semitism problem (outside this PR issue which is real of course).
And I certainly can't think of a single policy that Labour passed or advocated that could be considered remotely anti-semitic.

Like, how do you think it would manifest itself if they were ever put into power?
Sure, they might be less pro-Israel, they're almost certainly will be less lenient with the settlements and the occupation of the West Bank, but I think if you believe these are wrong positions to take you should argue that point on its merit, not because you think some people advocate that due to racism, especially when you have very little evidence to support that.
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Labour's current leader, while I don't believe him to be an anti-semite himself, has a long history of associating with anti-semitic people and organisations. See this article for an incomplete list: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...labour-leadership-foreign-policy-antisemitism
 
I dont even know much about carly, is she big enough to include in my game design?

Eh, I guess I could throw her in one of the ted things (maybe a small part) but not sure if it will mean much close to launch if a lot of people don't like her or if trump is the nom
 
johnsmith said:
I actually have no problem with the media trying to make it s dead heat. Need to motivate Dems to go out and vote against him for the down ticket races. Bill Maher flipped out on Friday when Rob Reiner said the GE race is already over.
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Did Maher call Rob Reiner a meathead? All In The Family fans want to know.

Goodstyle said:
euHfi7.gif
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Nicely edited. It looks like a really awkward dap performed after 5 minutes of practice.
 
even when their hands are up high they are still flicking them around like they are 2 year olds where the girl doesnt want to hold hands at all

it just makes no sense
 
Trump doesn't have the awareness to call the trade deficit with China the greatest theft in human history then pivot without irony to pretending to care about Native Americans does he.
 
Nazgul_Hunter said:
He's defending that on CNN by bringing up Hillarys "off the reservation" remarks saying how nasty that thing is to say to *men*. He also said that he won't even get into how offended "the Indians" are about it.
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Oh this is gonna be a long road to November.

Of course what Trump is ignoring is that she apologized. He doubled down.
 
This is why I have a hard time believing people who say Trump will pivot. He should be starting to pivot now, and comments like that will not help at all.
 
PPP Ohio:

Clinton 45
Trump 42

Clinton 44
Cruz 35

Clinton 41
Kasich 43

Cruz is viewed favorably by 21% of Ohians and unfavorably by 62%. I'm half upset that we'll likely never know what those numbers would be like coming out of a Cleveland razed to the ground.
 
balladofwindfishes said:
Those Clinton v Trump numbers are concerning

I would have expected it to be a larger gap
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It is a polling group that has Sanders at 52% unfavorable and Clinton at 57% unfavorable, so they likely caught moderately anti-Dem group.

cartoon_soldier said:
Incoming r/politics and r/s4p posts in 3..2...1
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Funny thing is that Sanders v. Trump was statistically identical to Hillary v. Trump as was Sanders v. Cruz in comparison to Hillary v. Cruz. Sanders v. Kasich however was 37/47 while Hillary v. Kasich was 41/43.

So there is no advantage to Sanders against the two far right ideologues despite zero real negative campaigning against him, but a measurable advantage for Hillary over Sanders at pulling away the more moderate conservatives.

Ohio will be close largely because Sanders has been poisoning the well on trade policies neither he nor his audience even remotely understand. He and Trump have effectively been tag teaming a false narrative of American workers being sold out by their government and we'll see the repercussions of that regardless of who the Dem candidate is in November as many white "moderates" go for the isolationist message that also panders to their inherent racism. That is the whole problem with Sanders v. Trump, other than just how easy it is to tear down Sanders as a Fidel Castro worshiping communist. He is playing for the white working class vote via an anti-trade, anti-establishment message. The white working class is receptive to that message but they like it even better when you mix a little ethnic superiority in with it a la Trump.
 
Actually, who cares about Ohio with these numbers coming out of Florida:

Clinton 49
Trump 36

Clinton 48
Trump 39

Factoring in all potential voters, the AIF poll found just 33 percent of those surveyed view Trump favorably, while 62 percent view him unfavorably, for a net favorability of -29 percent. Cruz is in even worse shape, with a net favorability of -30 percent, with 28 percent holding a favorable view and 58 percent an unfavorable impression.

Compared to the Republican candidates, Clinton’s -6 favorability index (46-52 percent) looks enviable. Rubio’s net favorability is 0, with 46 approving and disapproving of him.

“What’s amazing here is how much hate there is in the electorate. I’ve never seen this,” Tyson said. “It’s not like Hillary Clinton is strong, it’s that the Republican candidates are so weak.”
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Trump's favorables among Hispanics: 10/87. "No that's not a typo".

Even better: another poll out of Miami shows that Trump could force a long term political realignment of Cuban voters away from the GOP.
 
Yellowtail said:
PPP Ohio:

Clinton 45
Trump 42

Clinton 44
Cruz 35

Clinton 41
Kasich 43

Cruz is viewed favorably by 21% of Ohians and unfavorably by 62%. I'm half upset that we'll likely never know what those numbers would be like coming out of a Cleveland razed to the ground.
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LOL at Cruz. I knew he'd be like Walker--the more screentime he gets, the lower his numbers drop.
 
Yellowtail said:
Actually, who cares about Ohio with these numbers coming out of Florida:

Clinton 49
Trump 36

Clinton 48
Trump 39


Trump's favorables among Hispanics: 10/87. "No that's not a typo".

Even better: another poll out of Miami shows that Trump could force a long term political realignment of Cuban voters away from the GOP.
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What's interesting about this pollster is that they represent conservative business interests and tend to overestimate Republicans.
 
Those numbers make sense. Hillary should win comfortably, but the states which are close will not necessarily be those you'd expect if you project a uniform swing. States like Ohio which are heavily white working class will be better for Trump than his national numbers suggest, but heavily minority states will be worse.
 
Yellowtail said:
PPP Ohio:

Clinton 45
Trump 42

Clinton 44
Cruz 35

Clinton 41
Kasich 43

Cruz is viewed favorably by 21% of Ohians and unfavorably by 62%. I'm half upset that we'll likely never know what those numbers would be like coming out of a Cleveland razed to the ground.
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You know your state is messed up when Kasich and Trump are only one point away from each other. WTF
 
That Cruz handshake gif makes me want to vomit

HylianHistorian said:
Anybody else feel disturbed by Cruz? Like Christ he's a creep and legitimate sociopath. His platform is of open hatred pretty much and as ItWasMeantToBe has said, barely anybody in the media covers that. Ugh.
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He's easily worse than Trump and that shouldn't be possible
 
Maledict said:
I would say that in the ranks of the organized left, particularly trade unions, the Palestinian plight seems to take up far more time and attention than it should do. My local unison branch, like most, campaigns on it regularly. It doesn't do the same for international conflicts, and it always seemed odd that subscriptions for Uk workers would be spent campaigning and lobbying on Gaza and Palestine. Nothing similar was done when Russia invaded the Ukraine, or the Arab Spring conflicts, etc etc,
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I mean, Palestine is the only ongoing, very slow genocide that's explicitly aided and abetted by the West. Sure, there are some genocides we don't talk about, but that's the only one we're generally in favor of. I don't really think there's anything comparable.
 
Going back to the Paul Ryan lunch thing-- I remember that coming up when it was first released.

Also, I think he has a point (but the wrong solutions) regarding dignity, that the left doesn't generally understand it. Dignity is something that poor white people have been losing greatly over the last few decades (thanks to the sort of policies that Ryan and Co have set up) but demonizing welfare recipients is the sort of cheap shot that even the working poor whites can get on board with. Somebody working part-time retail at a gas station can say "at least I'm not on welfare" and for the people who fall below the line, as most welfare recipients are only on temporarily, can get on board with the hate of people who are on benefits for longer and the "culture of dependence." Ryan offers no solutions of course-- this article was meant to stoke the fires of those poor white people against those programs. It's a very tidy dog whistle.

If we could really get more infrastructure spending going, preferably the type with long-term benefits, we really could put a bigger dent in poverty in a way that doesn't feed this kind of "at least I'm better than *them*" mentality.
 
pigeon said:
I mean, Palestine is the only ongoing, very slow genocide that's explicitly aided and abetted by the West. Sure, there are some genocides we don't talk about, but that's the only one we're generally in favor of. I don't really think there's anything comparable.
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As much as some of Sanders rhetoric annoys me, he was legit when talking about middle east: Israel's disproportionate bombardment of Gaza in 2014 (psst guys, this is how you fuel terrorism) and our involvement in operation AJAX in the overthrowing of Mossadegh. I love it that these things have been given a platform instead of being swept under the rug for decades.
 
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