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Destiny |OT37| Everything Old is New Again
- Thread starter DrDrizzay101
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Most of Polygon's Destiny articles have been shit in recent months, but this one raises a lot of good points.
http://www.polygon.com/2015/12/16/10293298/destiny-leveling-bungie-taken-king-grind
On their own the boosts seem kind of harmless at this point. But I worry their profitability could affect the design of progression as we look toward the sequel. It's one thing to design player progression in a vacuum, then after the fact add a paid shortcut once the content has been out for a long time. It's another to design said progression WITH paid shortcuts in mind. I think these current boosts represent the former, but if they're a good source of revenue, I think it could turn into the latter.
http://www.polygon.com/2015/12/16/10293298/destiny-leveling-bungie-taken-king-grind
On their own the boosts seem kind of harmless at this point. But I worry their profitability could affect the design of progression as we look toward the sequel. It's one thing to design player progression in a vacuum, then after the fact add a paid shortcut once the content has been out for a long time. It's another to design said progression WITH paid shortcuts in mind. I think these current boosts represent the former, but if they're a good source of revenue, I think it could turn into the latter.
Kor of Memory
Member
It was a "challenge" that certain raiding groups already attempted just for fun a long time ago.
IIRC if you ever detonated more than 16 bombs at once, you would cause the game to hard lock/crash.
This was before Hard Mode was out.
HundredEyeMonk
Member
I'll see if I can grab it from Axoman tonight. I appreciate it!
IDK, I leveled up to 40 by popping a red bull code, putting on my exotic CE class item, and turning in 16 bounties, and collecting 20 saved PE packages (that leveled me up to 40 and leveled more than halfway through the third row of my new subclass).
Check around 11pm est or so. He usually pops up around then
You are a .1%er. Hell so am I, but I don't even have my Nightstalker and Stormcaller skill trees filled out yet.
Kor of Memory
Member
I still think the subclass boost is supposed to be the main draw. I'm up to level 15 on my Warlock, and I haven't even put in 3 hours, and I'm trying to go about it the natural way. I'm only grabbing a couple of bounties here and there, and not playing PvP at all.
If someone really wanted to "power level" from 1-40, I bet they could do it in 4 and a half hours.
JohnOfMars
Banned
Fixed.
But character level is practically meaningless in this game. The only tangible effect is what gear you can equip.
All abilities are dictated by subclass.
Damage taken and dealt is driven primarily by light.
Being level 40 means nothing. I was level 40 at 170 light.
Destiny has sooooooo much grind. Grind your character, grind your subclass, grind your other subclass, grind your last subclass, grind gear, grind more gear, etc.
As a reminder to Bungie, I played the shit out of your Halo games and they had no XP, no gear, no drops, just "30 seconds of fun". You don't need to artificially pad out your game if it's good. And Taken King is (mostly) good!
Stop being so scared and making everything a grind, holding back player progression and gear.
100% true. Leveling up is inconsequential. Leveling the subclasses themselves however takes an incredible amount of xp.
Future PhaZe
Member
think i might buy some of those red bull codes to help level my warlock--should those I buy off ebay still be working?
Kor of Memory
Member
Hang on, we were both making the same point, but it got turned around I think.
I was saying that a level 25 boost is pointless, as it means next to nothing in the game, and saves you very little time.
The subclass boost, should be what is advertised as the main feature, as that is actually a pretty big time sink.
Also, I don't agree with you about grinds. What you call grinds in this game, are what I call playing the game.
Like, you don't grind out out 32 levels of Mario, just for a chance to fight Bowser. I never played Halo and felt like I needed to grind out the first 8 levels so I could get to the final mission faster.
Finally, Halo:Reach was basically Desitny Lite, and did have "grindy" parts to it. I know, because I did it (Made it all the way to Legend). The more you played, the more XP you got, which let you buy different armor pieces and other cosmetic flair.
JohnOfMars
Banned
Oh, I re-read your post and I see now, Kor.
I will quibble with this, though:
I didn't make any mention of content. Cosmetics and nameplates aside, you didn't have to grind out to Legend to get access to all the Armor Abilities. You don't have to play 32 levels of Mario to get a double jump. You don't have to play 8 levels to get to use rockets in Halo.
(I actually admired Halo: Reach's restraint. In an era of Call of Duty making everything based on unlocks and XP and prestiging, they kept it cosmetic, they kept it out of gamplay. Look at Halo 4 and 5 to see just how bad it can get if you're totally shameless.)
Anyway, my point is that you don't have to have gameplay unlocks to keep people coming back. Especially segmenting and making them so brutally long. I'm probably unique, but I'd be happy having all the abilities unlocked at the start. There's enough grind with just the gear.
I will quibble with this, though:
I didn't make any mention of content. Cosmetics and nameplates aside, you didn't have to grind out to Legend to get access to all the Armor Abilities. You don't have to play 32 levels of Mario to get a double jump. You don't have to play 8 levels to get to use rockets in Halo.
(I actually admired Halo: Reach's restraint. In an era of Call of Duty making everything based on unlocks and XP and prestiging, they kept it cosmetic, they kept it out of gamplay. Look at Halo 4 and 5 to see just how bad it can get if you're totally shameless.)
Anyway, my point is that you don't have to have gameplay unlocks to keep people coming back. Especially segmenting and making them so brutally long. I'm probably unique, but I'd be happy having all the abilities unlocked at the start. There's enough grind with just the gear.
Nice thank you for the quick answer.
I like there being a progression and getting new skills and abilities over time, but I do think it's currently padded WAY too much.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
That's the thing, it doesn't matter what you did to max out your character in the past-It's whether the boosts will be taken into consideration in the future. Let's say right now they're iterating on the progression system for Destiny 2. And they see that the boosts are doing fairly well above expectations.
Suddenly their thought process is-"Well, we should put a bit more into what it takes to level. You know, make people want to get these boosts!" And suddenly the progression is affected. "oh but you don't have to buy the boost. You can still level up normally! It takes a bit longer, sure you can buy a boost but it's just a shortcut, it's not REAL pay 2 win!'.
It's a VERY REAL thing that can happen. They've probably talked about it. I mean, look at the progression system for The Taken King. It's a huge fucking step back from House of Wolves. There is no question about that. Having RNG reliant on RNG is a 2-factor system that only exists to increase the grind of the end game, with no intention to make it enjoyable at that. I do not get excited that I got a 315 ghost shell to replace my 314 ghost shell. I do not get excited that a 302 hand cannon dropped when I already have a 304 scout rifle.
It's a system made to increase the amount of grind-thus the amount of playtime-thus increase the likelihood that you spend on their microtransactions, 'Because why not I already play the game alot'.
It's a definite slipperly slope. The emote MT's lead to the halloween masks being sold, which led to the MTs of the SRL which were more egregious; being able to buy gear. Sure you can say, 'Well they never would have released those things otherwise!' You don't know that.
Either way, being a few months into MT happy Destiny, I'd rather pay a subscription fee like wow, and have all the content they have earnable in game(Emotes, masks, what have you) with more frequent updates thanks to being a sub(Like WoW, 3 major patches a release that add new raids+pvp maps+events+areas to explore+quests) instead of this MT mess.
It was so much easier to win SRL races before I became moderately good and the skill based MM started to put me with better players.
I swear the people I match with now seem to intentionally smash into me from behind just to knock me out of the lead. Or side boost into me to knock me off the path to the boost pad. Ideally you just get in front of them and never look back, but they are good too so that's not so easy for me. I'm not that good. The thing I really hate is when I'm in the lead or have a turn or a curve lined up perfectly and another player just slams into my tail end from behind and knocks me completely out of contention. And on top of that they have a bigger speed gate to navigate through. lol Bungle.
I swear the people I match with now seem to intentionally smash into me from behind just to knock me out of the lead. Or side boost into me to knock me off the path to the boost pad. Ideally you just get in front of them and never look back, but they are good too so that's not so easy for me. I'm not that good. The thing I really hate is when I'm in the lead or have a turn or a curve lined up perfectly and another player just slams into my tail end from behind and knocks me completely out of contention. And on top of that they have a bigger speed gate to navigate through. lol Bungle.
Kor of Memory
Member
Sorry, it's nothing with your specific points or post. I've just grown weary of the way "the grind" is getting tossed around lately.
It's like people have lost sight of where the actual game is. Sure my examples were terrible, but it wouldn't be hard to come up with others (basically any game that has a sort of progression system for the character such as Metroid, Banjo, etc...)
I just think back to Halo 3, where I was given exactly 1 XP for every game I won (sometimes 2 on weekends), and that was fine. It didn't mean anything, because I was just playing the game to play the game and have fun with it. People seem to scratch their heads when I mention that I just play crucible to have fun, and that's it.
Anyway, don't mind me. I'm just being a sensy today.
Hi Breezy!
Did you read the article? I am only asking because the article specifically uses WoW as an example of a game that sells a $60 boost to max level for one character.
Also notice that bungie significantly reduced the grind from 1-25 and made that much easier than it was when we did it the first time.
The thing is this is all hypothetical and if Destiny 2 comes out and it has nasty P2W type of leveling systems that I don't like then I may not buy it. For now I am happy with my TTK purchase and play time.
Been at it since 2:30 pm est? Got Oryx yet?
Kor of Memory
Member
I think fewer and fewer people are playing SRL now.
It's the same thing we were worried about when Trials came back with new matchmaking rules.
Losers are going to constantly be paired against winners. Losers will eventually give up entirely. Spectrum shifts, and now the slightly better than losers players are the new losers. Eventually they realize they're always bottom tier, and they give up entirely. Cycle repeats until only the best of the best are left.
One of the reasons this should only ever be a week long event, and definitely not permanent.
HMCM Oryx Damn #2.
Team Triple First Try.
Ended up with my Hunter getting a perfect 320 Helmet. Smooth as ice.
That calls for some 90s.
Always blew my mind that Toni Braxton is 5'1. For some reason I always thought she was way taller.
New DS4 to boot. Feels remarkably solid compared to all the others so far -_- We'll see how long it lasts.
Team Triple First Try.
Ended up with my Hunter getting a perfect 320 Helmet. Smooth as ice.
That calls for some 90s.
Always blew my mind that Toni Braxton is 5'1. For some reason I always thought she was way taller.
New DS4 to boot. Feels remarkably solid compared to all the others so far -_- We'll see how long it lasts.
Deku save US!
Nah our 3rd run ;P. Just joking want to help?
Ok, I'll help now. Be right there.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
That's also the thing-It takes much longer to level in WoW. Much, much longer. Like if it takes you a week to level in Destiny to max, in WoW it'd take you a month.
A boost makes sense for that game. For Destiny, it really doesn't. Yeah, you're right, it's easy to level right now in TTK. Beyond easy. But to say that the effect of how the boosts sell won't affect the future progression is well... a bit fallible seeing the slope Bungie has slid down already.
JohnOfMars
Banned
Haha. Sorry for pressing so hard. I think we're again making the same point and talking past each other.
I too want to get to the fact that the game is fun and that's the reason to play. Lengthy progression systems with lots of parts try to get hooks into people to play until they fill up the next bar, instead of playing the game itself.
Maybe they needed that in Vanilla when the content was light and the gameplay unrefined. But they don't need that now. The game's great.
Me too.
This is the worst time to use WoW as a comparison, not only because it also offers similar microtransactions and similar boosts, but also because the latest expansion touts two major patches when there really was only one.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Eh, Blizzards always had an issue regarding the time they take for patches. And since the end of Cata, it really hasn't been the same(Despite how bad Catas Raids are regarded, it was ALOT of raids and content.)
Still though, the amount of content WoW has would make any game blush.
Basically what I'm saying in regards to a patch, is if Destiny could go through a WoW 'Vanilla, Burning Legion, Wrath of the Lich King' phase, that would be magnificient.
That's part of the reason I feel that the price is, honestly, kind of offensive and predatory.
And I totally agree with your second paragraph. In fact, I'd go further and say it's literally impossible for Bungie not to design the game with microtransactions and (now) boost sales in mind. I think we're seeing that already with the content released. I'll keep an open mind but I'm just as pessimistic as I was when this new track was announced.
Darknyss09
Member
2 out of 3 oryx challenges done. Just need to finish the last one tonight hopefully.
I got lucky on the last run and got a 320 helmet and 320 arms.
I got lucky on the last run and got a 320 helmet and 320 arms.
He doesn't even need to understand Destiny. He just comes off as a dick in every single blog entry he makes. I stopped reading updates because he comes off as "because fuck you that's why" when he explains anything.
Darknyss09
Member
You have someone shooting at Oryx while the bombs go off?
igordennis
Member
Yeah deej is unfortunately just on a completely different wavelenght than us (not the "1%", the players).
Kor of Memory
Member
The main issue with Deej is he is a great representation of the average player, and his writings (and updates) are written as if they were directed at the average player.
Except the average player doesn't read the BWU. He's writing to an audience that doesn't exist, and the audience that is listening in their place feels neglected/disregarded because we're actually there to listen, but aren't being spoken to.
Edit: Does anyone know how long Deej has been around? I know he was there for the beta, but I wasn't paying attention to Destiny before that.
Edit 2: Holy shit, he's been there since November of 2011...
Yeah, though his writing has gotten better since Year 1. I would prefer if he just kept the fluff out of it.
He's always on company speak and never talks about his feelings or what he accomplished in Destiny. I'd like to be personal, even if he doesn't play as much as we do.
That's oddest fact. The ones who crave the BWU every week are definitely not the average players.
The weekly update is like 80% fluff most times.
HidingMyThunder
Member
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