Support NeoGAF

[Corporal.Hicks]

From when ps5 base has a limited memory bandwidth compared to XSX? Furthermore such drops not seems tied to the bandwith otherwise the fps slowdowns would be more "armonic" and graduate. Looking a cpu/gpu broken balance in I/O data.
But in any case game should run better on ps5 pro compared series X, there isn't excuse about that. UE5 at 60 fps of base ps5 emulated on Pro always runs better compared series X.
Anyway MGS and Mafia are the last games to judge such stuff. My wild guess they have just switched the code to the Pro hardware barely caring to refine any performance as many have the bad habit to do.

Based on what I read The Xbox Series X really has a bandwidth advantage compared to base PS5. 560 GB/s on the XSX can be used fully by the GPU because memory was split between GPU and CPU. The PS5 has a bandwidth of 448 GB/s. This is already 112 GB/s lower than the Xbox Series X, and on top of that the bandwidth is shared with the CPU, so PS5 GPU never can use full 448 GB/s. The RX 6700 has exactly the same number of shader cores as PS5 (2304), yet only need 320 GB/s, so I'm guessing 448 GB/s bandwidth on the PS5 was more than enough anyway even if some of that bandwidth was used by the CPU.

 

[Karim]

Based on what I read The Xbox Series X really has a bandwidth advantage compared to base PS5. 560 GB/s on the XSX can be used fully by the GPU because memory was split between GPU and CPU. The PS5 has a bandwidth of 448 GB/s. This is 112 GB/s lower than the Xbox Series X, and on top of that the bandwidth is shared with the CPU.

PS5 has lower bandwidth because had 40% of less CUs and it was designed around it. The problem of the ps5 it's the variables usage of cpu/gpu for the variable frequency. If you don't pay attention enough about it you can have more performance issues imo. Doesn't happens often but it happens if the developer doesn't take it in the count.

 

[Mr Moose]

Based on what I read The Xbox Series X really has a bandwidth advantage compared to base PS5. 560 GB/s on the XSX can be used fully by the GPU because memory was split between GPU and CPU. The PS5 has a bandwidth of 448 GB/s. This is 112 GB/s lower than the Xbox Series X, and on top of that the bandwidth is shared with the CPU.

for 10GB*

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

for 10GB*

It's irrelevant because developers also need to allocate resources to the CPU, and I doubt any XSX developer needed to allocate more than 10 GB to the GPU alone. Microsoft's decision to split the memory was very clever, as it was cheaper and meant that the CPU wouldn't take up precious bandwidth from the GPU.

I always laugh when people think that PS5 has 12.5GB VRAM. The idea that you could allocate all of that just to the GPU is insane. I played many XSX/PS5 ports and based on what I saw the average current gen console game use even below 8GB VRAM (if I tried to match console settings), with some examples that can reach up to 10GB (The Last of Us and Forspoken). The Last of Us was patched and ultimately ran fine on my 8 GB VRAM though.

 

[Mr Moose]

Microsoft's decision to split the memory was very clever, as it was cheaper and meant that the CPU wouldn't take up precious bandwidth from the GPU.

Worked well for the GTX 970.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Worked well for the GTX 970.

 

[Thief1987]

UE5 sends all console users back to sub 1080 and 30 fps. (2025->2006).

Well, not just UE5, and not just console users either

 

[Bojji]

From when ps5 base has a limited memory bandwidth compared to XSX? Furthermore such drops not seems tied to the bandwith otherwise the fps slowdowns would be more "armonic" and graduate. Looking a cpu/gpu broken balance in I/O data.
But in any case game should run better on ps5 pro compared series X, there isn't excuse about that. UE5 at 60 fps of base ps5 emulated on Pro always runs better compared series X.
Anyway MGS and Mafia are the last games to judge such stuff. My wild guess they have just switched the code to the Pro hardware barely caring to refine any performance as many have the bad habit to do.

More memory BW for the same resolution targets. PS5 Pro has a bit higher memory BW compared to SX but usually has higher resolution targets in games (and ML calculations in the mix).

Based on what I read The Xbox Series X really has a bandwidth advantage compared to base PS5. 560 GB/s on the XSX can be used fully by the GPU because memory was split between GPU and CPU. The PS5 has a bandwidth of 448 GB/s. This is already 112 GB/s lower than the Xbox Series X, and on top of that the bandwidth is shared with the CPU, so PS5 GPU never can use full 448 GB/s. The RX 6700 has exactly the same number of shader cores as PS5 (2304), yet only need 320 GB/s, so I'm guessing 448 GB/s bandwidth on the PS5 was more than enough anyway even if some of that bandwidth was used by the CPU.

6700 has 80MB of L3 cache, that is what helps it keep up.

PS5 has lower bandwidth because had 40% of less CUs and it was designed around it. The problem of the ps5 it's the variables usage of cpu/gpu for the variable frequency. If you don't pay attention enough about it you can have more performance issues imo. Doesn't happens often but it happens if the developer doesn't take it in the count.

This is not true at all. Memory BW have nothing to do with number of CUs.

It's all about cost, Xbox had wider bus from the beginning, Sony used cheaper 256bit and GDDR6 speed at the time didn't allow for more than 448GB/s. In PC space AMD started using L3 cache to fix low memory speed.

for 10GB*

What is left for CPU is absolutely enough. Problem only starts when you need more "Vram" than 10GB in your game.

 

[Gaiff]

Well, not just UE5, and not just console users either

Kinda disingenuous to use max settings+rt as if consoles used anything close to that.

 

[Thief1987]

Kinda disingenuous to use max settings+rt as if consoles used anything close to that.

Ok, ok, I will correct myself, it's 540p less than 60fps, at MAXIMUM settings. Feel better?

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

Worked well for the GTX 970.

The example of the GTX 970 is absurd, and I would never use it as an argument against the memory split on consoles. The remaining memory on the GTX 970 was magnitudes slower than the main memory, and GPU was forced to used it leading to stutters and performance degradation. I think Nvidia tried to solve this problem with later driver updates, but splitting the memory on the GPU will never make sense.

On console it's however a totally different story, because developers have to allocate memory resources between GPU and CPU anyway. GPU needs much higher bandwidth than the CPU and because consoles must be cheap it make sense to use faster memory for the GPU, and slower for the CPU. On XSX console GPU can use full 560GB/s bandwidth because of that split and performance isnt affected by the CPU. Dude, MS engineers arnt dump, they are clever people who knows what they are doing.

 

[mrMUR_96]

This comparison of your image is of a part where he's still; in motion, the sharpness is greater on the Pro.

I took these two images below of him in motion.

Besides that, the motion artifacts on the PS5 are garbage... lots of artifacts... for me, that's the worst part.

FSR is so aids, worst thing this generation imo. FSR 4 looks better at least, but I wished they'd just use TSR instead of FSR even if it's blurrier.

 

[Karim]

More memory BW for the same resolution targets. PS5 Pro has a bit higher memory BW compared to SX but usually has higher resolution targets in games (and ML calculations in the mix).



6700 has 80MB of L3 cache, that is what helps it keep up.



This is not true at all. Memory BW have nothing to do with number of CUs.

It's all about cost, Xbox had wider bus from the beginning, Sony used cheaper 256bit and GDDR6 speed at the time didn't allow for more than 448GB/s. In PC space AMD started using L3 cache to fix low memory speed.



What is left for CPU is absolutely enough. Problem only starts when you need more "Vram" than 10GB in your game.

Wut. How not lol. Less bandwidth you have worst CUs usage compared otherwise.

 

[Bojji]

Wut. How not lol. Less bandwidth you have worst CUs usage.

It wasn't "designed" with 448GB/s. It was just the amount available at the time. Games would benefit from higher memory bandwidth, higher resolutions and less fps drops when smoke and explosions are on screen.

 

[Karim]

It wasn't "designed" with 448GB/s. It was just the amount available at the time. Games would benefit from higher memory bandwidth, higher resolutions and less fps drops when smoke and explosions are on screen.

All the gpu use the bandwith available at the time. Of course more it's better. What you even trying to say. But with a lot more bandwiths you can bet yours balls ps5 would have pointed on more CUs or at least it's what Cerny said.

 

[Bojji]

All the gpu use the bandwith available at the time. Of course more it's better. What you even trying to say. But with a lot more bandwiths you can bet yours balls ps5 would have pointed on more CUs.

6900XT from the same time that PS5 launched has 80CUs and 512GB/s memory BW.

Number of CUs and memory BW is not connected directly.

 

[Karim]

6900XT from the same time that PS5 launched has 80CUs and 512GB/s memory BW.

Number of CUs and memory BW is not connected directly.

In Road of the PS5 Cerny explained he tried to fit the CUs numbers for the more efficient bandwith usage eh.

 

[Gaiff]

6900XT from the same time that PS5 launched has 80CUs and 512GB/s memory BW.

Number of CUs and memory BW is not connected directly.

In Road of the PS5 Cerny explained he tried to fit the CUs numbers with the bandwith usage eh.

You two aren't even talking about the same thing. On the one hand, Karim is saying that engineering tries to scale up bandwidth with the number of CUs so that a high compute GPU isn't bandwidth-starved and that's correct. On the other hand, Bojji is saying that more CUs doesn't equal more bandwidth (cuz bandwidth is memory config and clocks), and that's also correct.

 

[SlimySnake]

In Road of the PS5 Cerny explained he tried to fit the CUs numbers with the bandwith usage eh.

OK, so lets take him at his word.

PS5 - 36 CUs and 448 GBps.
PS5 Pro - 60 CUs and 576 GBps.

66% increase in CUs.
28% increase in Bandwidth.

Are we really surprised that the pro isnt maxing out its tflops?

Bottomline is that RDNA2 was designed around infinity cache and the PS5, XSX and Pro simply dont have it.

 

[Karim]

OK, so lets take him at his word.

PS5 - 36 CUs and 448 GBps.
PS5 Pro - 60 CUs and 576 GBps.

66% increase in CUs.
28% increase in Bandwidth.

Are we really surprised that the pro isnt maxing out its tflops?

My guess, PS5 PRO has more CUs for the PSSR. And also they not want invest more money in higher bandwith. Opinable choice that's for sure.

 

[Bojji]

In Road of the PS5 Cerny explained he tried to fit the CUs numbers with the bandwith usage eh.

In Pro video he says that limited memory bandwidth was the biggest issue for ML. Both consoles are memory BW starved.

It's all about cost.

That CU=memory BW falls apart when looking at recent nvidia GPUs, 4080S vs. 5080:

Almost the same specs but memory bandwidth is much higher on 5080.

6900xt with 80CUs vs. 7900XT with 84:

 

[Karim]

In Pro video he says that limited memory bandwidth was the biggest issue for ML. Both consoles are memory BW starved.

It's all about cost.

That CU=memory BW falls apart when looking at recent nvidia GPUs, 4080S vs. 5080:

Almost the same specs but memory bandwidth is much higher on 5080.

6900xt with 80CUs vs. 7900XT with 84:

To be fair he said in the past the memory was the big issue for ML, but not actually and he never talked about PS5 PRO. We already had this discussion lol.

 

[Bojji]

To be fair he said in the past the memory was the big issue for ML, but not actually and he never talked about PS5 PRO. We already had this discussion lol.

Read what SlimySnake posted, Pro is fucked by that low memory BW increase.

 

[Karim]

Read what SlimySnake posted, Pro is fucked by that low memory BW increase.

Ok. So you buy a console which are fucked in memory and with an horrid PSSR upscaler. And you already claimed it many times before to get it. The question is:

I give you that: I never be happy about the PS5 PRO bandwidth and I started to suspect it's more a backward reason than just save money because I don't see why sony did such choice when the cost increase is almost minimal.

 

[Bojji]

Ok. So you buy a console which are fucked in memory and with an horrid PSSR upscaler. And you already claimed it many times before to get it. The question is:

Pro is unbalanced but even with all its flaws most games are better on it than on normal PS5.

PSSR is not "horrid" outside of very few cases, it even can be very good in some games and in general much better than FSR2/3. Problem is, Sony didn't test it enough before giving to devs.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

OK, so lets take him at his word.

PS5 - 36 CUs and 448 GBps.
PS5 Pro - 60 CUs and 576 GBps.

66% increase in CUs.
28% increase in Bandwidth.

Are we really surprised that the pro isnt maxing out its tflops?

Bottomline is that RDNA2 was designed around infinity cache and the PS5, XSX and Pro simply dont have it.

I would like to know how much PS5 GPU benefited from the increased bandwidth compared to RX 6700 which has the same number of cores, but only 320 GB/s. I'm guessing not much, since the PS5 memory bandwidth (448 GB/s) was shared, and Cerny probably used an additional 128 GB/s just to offset that.

 

[adamsapple]

Pro is unbalanced but even with all its flaws most games are better on it than on normal PS5.

PSSR is not "horrid" outside of very few cases, it even can be very good in some games and in general much better than FSR2/3. Problem is, Sony didn't test it enough before giving to devs.

PSSR not playing well with UE5 games and their modern features is a big sticking point.

UE5 is ubiquitous, Sony should have done more work on making sure it works with the most prolific engine in the market.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

Worked well for the GTX 970.

I had a GTX 970 and was less in-tune with hardware back then. I just looked up what you were referring to with this, and now I finally understand why my games were stuttering so bad lol

 

[Zuzu]

Another MajorBen video where he compares the image quality of the base PS5 to the Pro. He thinks that the image quality on the Pro is still better than even the base PS5 running in the 30fps quality mode. One issue though is that his comparisons only take place in the jungle but PSSR is having issues with interior environments. But still, if Pro often has better image quality than the quality mode on base then that's good:

 

[Karim]

PSSR not playing well with UE5 games and their modern features is a big sticking point.

UE5 is ubiquitous, Sony should have done more work on making sure it works with the most prolific engine in the market.

Not only PSSR to be fair.

 

[MisterXDTV]

The real question is how a game that is horribly optimized on every platform on the planet became a discussion about the PS5 Pro hardware....

The answer: clickbaiting video by DF

They got exactly what they wanted

 

[Bojji]

The real question is how a game that is horribly optimized on every platform on the planet became a discussion about the PS5 Pro hardware....

The answer: clickbaiting video by DF

They got exactly what they wanted

Game performs worse on 16TF console than on 10TF console.

This is on developers and Sony (they allow or disallow games to be released) and shouldn't happen.

 

[Negotiator101]

PSSR not playing well with UE5 games and their modern features is a big sticking point.

UE5 is ubiquitous, Sony should have done more work on making sure it works with the most prolific engine in the market.

What's it like on HB2?

 

[Zathalus]

The real question is how a game that is horribly optimized on every platform on the planet became a discussion about the PS5 Pro hardware....

The answer: clickbaiting video by DF

They got exactly what they wanted

Should they not report the facts then? What about all the times they praise the Pro or PS5 (and they have done that many times).

This idea they go after the PS5 or Sony has no bearing on reality. Mark Cerny watches their videos for goodness sake.

 

[adamsapple]

What's it like on HB2?

Nothing noteworthy one way or the other. That game is so heavily post-processed that any/many up-scaling artifacts are covered by it.

 

[roque-swarm]

I would like to know how much PS5 GPU benefited from the increased bandwidth compared to RX 6700 which has the same number of cores, but only 320 GB/s. I'm guessing not much, since the PS5 memory bandwidth (448 GB/s) was shared, and Cerny used an additional 128 GB/s just to offset that.

Gotta remember that RDNA 2 GPUs have infinity cache that makes up the lack of memory bandwidth, consoles don't

 

[Gaiff]

The real question is how a game that is horribly optimized on every platform on the planet became a discussion about the PS5 Pro hardware....

The answer: clickbaiting video by DF

They got exactly what they wanted

Because the real story is the game performing worse on the better console. Was DF supposed to lie or not report the performance on the Pro so you wouldn't get your feelings hurt?

 

[FUBARx89]

How does Sony intend to keep selling the Pro with such poor / garbage support ? Have they got a plan, or will they just let the console die ?

They probably don't care. The die hard Sony fan acts like it's all fine and will keep buying.

It's a shame that whatever outstanding upscaling technique Guerilla Games uses for Horizon is probably locked to the Decima engine.

 

[TGO]

I saw a YouTuber bitching about this and they was pretty much saying "how are we getting performance issues this far into the generation, it should be 60fps locked minimum"
I'm sorry but this isn't reality, games performance improves within the second to third year when games ain't even pushing the hardware.
anything after that can be anything from stable or not depending on the graphical push.
A highly polished product built for the hardware or a game struggling on the hardware that is going beyond what the system can do, especially at 60fps or higher.
Optimisation isn't there for 60fps, it's there to ensure it runs the best the system can do.
Now this ain't a rant about MGS3D, just people that say stupid shit like mentioned above.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Because the real story is the game performing worse on the better console. Was DF supposed to lie or not report the performance on the Pro so you wouldn't get your feelings hurt?

The just should have done their job: compare ALL versions of the game at the same time

But of course they will never do that

 

[Esppiral]

The game looks superb

 

[yogaflame]

Yes there is some technical issues with MGS delta which might be fix by a few patch but will this issues remove the fun in the game?

I remember they said that Silent Hill 2 remake was technically very bad especially on Ps5. But after playing the game on base Ps5 , I really enjoyed the game, and even on quality mode 30 fps it was stable, beautiful and playable.

 

[Gaiff]

The just should have done their job: compare ALL versions of the game at the same time

But of course they will never do that

They only had access to the PS5 version, dingus. John and Richard saw the Xbox version at Gamescom and said it exhibits similar issues to the PS5 one.

DF reports the Pro has performance issues worse than the base PS5, and you mofos are crying about it as if they were lying. Then you accuse them of clickbait when the Pro's problems aren't even highlighted in the title nor the thumbnail. You have to watch the video, so how is it clickbait?

Always the same PS warriors bitching and moaning. You guys are god damn insufferable.

 

[Gamer79]

Worked well for the GTX 970.

Great card man. My son had that card for years and gifted it to me about 8 years later when I first started getting into PC gaming.

 

[roosnam1980]

 

[Karim]

Game performs worse on 16TF console than on 10TF console.

This is on developers and Sony (they allow or disallow games to be released) and shouldn't happen.

They can disallow games to be released for such issue, come on. Developers spend invest money on it and they risk to lose their support, use your brain. Anyway I think it will improve, horrid practic but hardly a game remains forever with worse perfomance compared base ps5.

 

[Karim]

I would like to know how much PS5 GPU benefited from the increased bandwidth compared to RX 6700 which has the same number of cores, but only 320 GB/s. I'm guessing not much, since the PS5 memory bandwidth (448 GB/s) was shared, and Cerny probably used an additional 128 GB/s just to offset that.

You are the first who tries to point out that the ps5 base is bandwith starving lol. You can search some reliable developers quote on the net if you don't believe me.

 

[adamsapple]

They only had access to the PS5 version, dingus. John and Richard saw the Xbox version at Gamescom and said it exhibits similar issues to the PS5 one.

DF reports the Pro has performance issues worse than the base PS5, and you mofos are crying about it as if they were lying. Then you accuse them or clickbait when the Pro's problems aren't even highlighted in the title nor the thumbnail. You have to watch the video, so how is it clickbait?

Always the same PS warriors bitching and moaning. You guys are god damn insufferable.

The dude thinks that DF covering PC and Xbox at the same time would have made the Pro not run the game worse than the base PS5 most of the time

(or realistically it's just grasping for straws trying to find any holes in DF's coverage to try and discredit them)

 

[SlimySnake]

I saw a YouTuber bitching about this and they was pretty much saying "how are we getting performance issues this far into the generation, it should be 60fps locked minimum"
I'm sorry but this isn't reality, games performance improves within the second to third year when games ain't even pushing the hardware.
anything after that can be anything from stable or not depending on the graphical push.
A highly polished product built for the hardware or a game struggling on the hardware that is going beyond what the system can do, especially at 60fps or higher.
Optimisation isn't there for 60fps, it's there to ensure it runs the best the system can do.
Now this ain't a rant about MGS3D, just people that say stupid shit like mentioned above.

They dont want devs pushing the graphics or systems anymore. They want the same last gen game they got during the cross gen period in year 5, year 6 and until next gen starts and they can run two generation old games at 120 fps.

they hate video games.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Gaiff telling other people that are insufferable must be the top post of the year...