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[Alur]

I think AH nerf would be fair if they hadn't also just jacked up the cool down. That should at least be reverted to coincide but ayy lmao.

Rehgar is now in that medic category to some degree...except they reworked his kit to "go in and contribute" but have slowly removed all the padding he had that made that viable. Getting in the middle of shit now with feral lunge might be a very bad time.

EDIT: I think it's a dumb change personally and they could've done something different that made a little more sense IMO, but doesn't really bother me. I've played enough Rehgar to last me a while. I think it's weird that his winrate was finally down in the ballpark of the other heroes and now they go nuclear. He'll be sub 50% after this I would imagine with all the feeding Rehgars.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yet Kharazim still can self palm, how often do you see Ancestral on rehgars though, that is already a sign of winning usually.

 

[Alur]

Yeah but Palm is definitely the harder to use ult. Removing it's self use would be just a slap in the face. I still doubt most Kharazims can even reliably land more than one palm a game. At least monk is buffed now.

I saw Rehgar AH himself a lot right after the buff because he was in so deep. But he created enough damage to justify it. Also see it fairly regularly when one will lunge to drop a totem and eat a stun and therefore get gibbed. It was definitely less self-used in the healbot days, but you still utilize it often enough for it to hurt badly.

This change is just begging Rehgar's to take their buffed Q and utility talents and really hang back now and will remove what bit of excitement was left in the kit. Will have to be way more timid with aggressive play and totem usage. As I said, putting the CD back to what it was before the last nerfs would've at least made it less brutal for the rest of your team, but RIP that dream for a few weeks at least. He was already falling off. Now he's got a Wile E Coyote acme safe strapped to his back.

Edit: Bloodlust double support comp might be the real dream now brian?

 

[protonium]

.

 

[Ketch]

I think Rehgar ancestral's himself quite often.... and it was kind of OK anyway? Like, that's a really weird change. He is kind of supposed to be in the shit, or at least like 1v1 some people you know... He's a shaman, a core class from wow, and he played quite a bit like one... dropping totems, lightning shield, fighting shit, healing yourself... that's all part of it.

It's not like he was a good melee hero, he's just a decent scrapper. People would try to 1v1 him, and he can put up a fight, then drop ancestral (his heroic... on a LONG ass cooldown) and probably win a 1v1 in a lot of cases... but it was never an optimal use of the heroic.

I would have rather seen them make it interruptable.


is that the entire patch notes?

I continue to be disappionted that they continue to tweak heroes that are essentially fine while ignoring many others.

 

[Alur]

So who plays Starcraft and can tell me why I should be hyped about Dehaka? Other than the data mines he's the first hero I have literally never heard of/know nothing about.

 

[Ketch]

he's lame.

he's like the male version of zagara. b-tier zerg leader invented for SC2

but maybe he'll rip off tiny, and tiny is a cool dota hero.

 

[Syf]

So who plays Starcraft and can tell me why I should be hyped about Dehaka? Other than the data mines he's the first hero I have literally never heard of/know nothing about.

well in the campaign he's able to drag enemies or allies to him, jump up cliffs, self heal, and create spawns. but to make him really interesting I'd like to see them do something with the primal zerg ability to absorb essence from the things they kill and evolve based on that

 

[Alur]

well in the campaign he's able to drag enemies or allies to him, jump up cliffs, self heal, and create spawns. but to make him really interesting I'd like to see them do something with the primal zerg ability to absorb essence from the things they kill and evolve based on that

Thanks

but maybe he'll rip off tiny, and tiny is a cool dota hero.

Wow, dat "Toss" skill and "Craggy Exterior" look interesting. A reflect ability would actually be pretty awesome IMO. I could dig it if they went this route.

 

[Ketch]

damn those are some massive nerfs to Xul.

lol @ business model.

edit:

tiny is cool because he starts as a cute little pebble man, but by the end of the game he's giant mountain monster that swings trees at people and is like impossible to kill.

dahaka would be cool if he started as like a little zergling but by the end of the game was like an abathur monstrosity on steroids.

 

[Syf]

unhinge him from the team level
he levels from kills
first true carry in hots confirmed, literally zero things wrong with this plan

 

[Milly79]

Finally did it.

Spoiler

i self casted AH on myself once

Spoiler

inb4 ketch shitpost

 

[Ketch]

inb4 ketch shitpost

you're 13 times better then me.

 

[Milly79]

I was 224-203. 2630 MMR before the last win. Definitely bottom of the barrel, but happy I could finally get it.

 

[Alur]

Finally did it.

Does this mean you are finally going pro?

 

[Ketch]

I dont know what my MMR is, but i'm currently like 150 - 120. When I hit rank 10 I started losing 90 points for losing and only gaining like 60 points for winning, and then I lost three ranks.

I should abuse xul some more before he gets nerfed.

 

[Alur]

I know that feel, Ketch. My highest HL winrate is on my main account (59% winrate in HL) but it has the lowest MMR and took forever to get r1. Well beyond 200 games. Then I have that other account that is literally like 55-52 and it's hit r1 twice with bonus points still intact. #makessense

 

[Milly79]

Does this mean you are finally going pro?

Apparently it's all the rage to pick up shit-tier MMR players for EU pro teams.

Looks like I still have a shot.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Apparently it's all the rage to pick up shit-tier MMR players for EU pro teams.

Looks like I still have a shot.

I know you're just being funny but the difference between regions is staggering in this

1. Danatan
2. Shad
3. AlexTheProG
4. Cris
5. scHwimpi
6. Redx
7. SportBilly
8. LiquidCris
9. ethernal
10. Wubby
11. Breez
12. RzuF
13. Remmerballer
14. Crozzby
15. Nurok
16. Mene
17. Zarmony
18. Atheroangel
19. JayPL
20. BadBenny

First player not a pro

1. Wiz
2. Zeys
3. Mirr
4. Prismaticism
5. DoyouknowWG
6. InnovaUrano
7. McIntyre

First player that is a pro afaik and the list continues rather sparsely.

 

[Milly79]

Wiz is technically a pro.

And I'm not really sure what that matters. Plenty of the US players have spoken out against hero league and how it's not worth the troubles atm.

 

[Alur]

I know you're just being funny but the difference between regions is staggering in this

That's not actual MMR though. That's MMR gained in the month. The highest MMR players on hotdoggies in NA are by and large pro players AFAIK. They just don't play casually anymore.

Hell, I've even seen a few NA players play on EU just to get better games.

 

[Maledict]

Wiz is technically a pro.

And I'm not really sure what that matters. Plenty of the US players have spoken out against hero league and how it's not worth the troubles atm.

I think at this point it's a self defeating problem for NA.

If you watch any EU pro streamer, you see them being matched up against other pro's every match, so the matches generally seem okay. But In NA so few pro players play hero league there just aren't enough of them around to make decent games at the top level.

(Also EU has a larger player base as well)

 

[Alur]

The actual top MMR based on the only visible list we have. Again, Blizz's is a month long gain, not overall. Most of these players above don't even play HL anymore or only smurf or what have you.

EDIT: Beaten by Maledict. But yeah, I doubt we'll see any kind of influx til Grandmaster comes out...and even then it'll have to be up to "their standard" whatever that is. In general NA players bitch and complain about the casual aspect of the game quite a bit and nitpick it to death despite never playing it.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Wiz is technically a pro.

And I'm not really sure what that matters. Plenty of the US players have spoken out against hero league and how it's not worth the troubles atm.

That's not actual MMR though. That's MMR gained in the month. The highest MMR players on hotdoggies in NA are by and large pro players AFAIK. They just don't play casually anymore.

Hell, I've even seen a few NA players play on EU just to get better games.

How does that work? Cause these people have been on the list every month thereby the MMR gained should actually be fairly low.

By not lifting the quality of HL themselves they are hurting their region develop/discover more talent. Like didn't even a Korean team pick up their shotcaller from a HL match.

 

[Alur]

How does that work? Cause these people have been on the list every month thereby the MMR gained should actually be fairly low.

See post above. I'm sure internally due to decay or something that may be what the list looks like for Blizzard overall, we don't really know. The initial perception that Blizz gave was that it was monthly gains to get to the top of the ladder though. All we do know is dudes like iDream and Fan climbed to the top of hotdogs and hero.gg and then they just quit.

By not lifting the quality of HL themselves they are hurting their region develop/discover more talent. Like didn't even a Korean team pick up their shotcaller from a HL match.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. And like Maledict said it's a self fulfilling prophecy. It's just a difference in culture, I think. Part of why see more EU teams and also more EU teams who are actually decent. Here it's all about the money and the winning and players just aren't interested in working their way into it or building up, etc. THH talked about this several times last year.

No HL presence hurts their recruitment. Also hurts their perception of the game and how the real players perceive it and them, IMO. And you could argue that the lack of non-scrim play hurts their strategy and may lead to that stagnation you guys and others have talked about in NA. No one is ever on their own or with a friend trying new shit. They just read the patch notes, make a decision, and go with it in scrims and most teams just follow the leader.

 

[Maledict]

Um, the top 200 list from Blizzard is just MMR ranking.

catch the top 200 players for hero and team league....

The following players, representing europe and ranked by MMR, are numbered below for your viewing pleasure

Not sure why folks would think it was a list of highest MMR gained? That would make it fairly impossible for people to remain at the top of the list all the time like they are.

EDIT: there is no MMR decay currently in the game as well BTW, confirmed by Blizzard.

 

[Alur]

Um, the top 200 list from Blizzard is just MMR ranking.



Not sure why folks would think it was a list of highest MMR gained? That would make it fairly impossible for people to remain at the top of the list all the time like they are.

EDIT: there is no MMR decay currently in the game as well BTW, confirmed by Blizzard.

It's the top 200 for that month. As Familie said, it's mostly the same people with a few who shoot up rapidly (like McIntyre did, or chu has, etc). Like how Srey has dropped completely off of it since joining Tempo Storm.

There's no real way to explain him not being there (after being number 1 for a while) without it weighting heavily based on the month. There's pretty much no way 200 people have passed him in total MMR in that time frame when his MMR has also not regressed. Do you see what I'm saying? He may just simply not play the 50 games, I guess. But then that explains why most of the people we don't see aren't on there and the list would pretty much be populated with pros if that gameplay requirement wasn't in place.

Maybe MMR decay is the wrong term.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You have to play 50 games to be eligible for the list.

 

[Alur]

Yes. I had forgotten about the 50 games so that makes more sense. And if the 50 games were not required, we would see a list with a bunch of pros on it. They simply don't play.

 

[Maledict]

It's the top 200 for that month. As Familie said, it's mostly the same people with a few who shoot up rapidly (like McIntyre did, or chu has, etc). Like how Srey has dropped completely off of it since joining Tempo Storm.

There's no real way to explain him not being there (after being number 1 for a while) without it weighting heavily based on the month. There's pretty much no way 200 people have passed him in total MMR in that time frame when his MMR has also not regressed. Do you see what I'm saying? He may just simply not play the 50 games, I guess. But then that explains why most of the people we don't see aren't on there and the list would pretty much be populated with pros if that gameplay requirement wasn't in place.

Maybe MMR decay is the wrong term.

It's the top 200 players who have played 50 games that month. That's why people drop off. There's nothing anywhere from Blizzard that indicates this is based on MMR gained.

NA pros don't even play the 50 games, so they don't get onto the list. There's nothing complicated about it. It's also why players like Cris in Europe are in the top 3 every month even though their MMR gained will be ridiculously small at this point with his number of games.

EDIT: BAH, I was running a bath and took too long to post...

 

[Alur]

BAH, I was running a bath and took too long to post...

This is the most English phrase I have heard in some time. <3

I would give you some of mine but they are mostly nonsensical.

 

[Sothis Krieg]

Why they can"t let Nova die in a corner and works on balance for other heroes...

 

[Ketch]

There's been a lot more pros vs pros or other high level streamers in HL games that i've watched on Mac, Fan, and Erho's streams in NA.

Like, you can actually recognize a lot of the players because they keep popping up in the games, and the matches in generally seem to be a lot more even lately.

Bliz has made some changes to matchmaking and it is showing, at least for the very high level players. (See that article that was posted a couple pages back about why it doesn't change much for pretty much everybody else).

Now all we need is for the NA pros to actually play and it will get even better.

 

[brian!]

Mainly cultural, partially the amount of skilled players, being ~3500 in eu means something different than na. Na league of legends has the same issue vs. Eu league of legends

Also pro vs. pro doesnt mean much in na w/ the skill disparity, but that gap is lessening i guess

 

[Alur]

Did you guys read this reddit poster's thoughts that it's actually Terokk, not Dehaka?

I would be down for that.

Also pro vs. pro doesnt mean much in na w/ the skill disparity, but that gap is lessening i guess

I don't find there to be a huge level of individual skill disparity among the vast majority of the pros, though. I think pro v pro does mean a lot in HL because of that. Like, I don't find michaeludall to be vastly inferior to say, Kaeyoh. Kaeyoh is probably the better player, but in a HL game the difference is negligible when he doesn't have his team around him. Like when you compare Tempo Storm and C9, Arthelon being a smidge better than Goku or whoever, and Dunk being better than Zixz and so on and so forth adds up in a 5v5 environment, but that smidge doesn't matter as much when you have two sides in HL that are thrown together randomly. If you popped udall on Tempo Storm for Kaeyoh I don't think they'd be any better or worse. There's very few players who move the needle that much on their own.

Zuna and Fan are the most obvious two who really took their team's to a new level when joining in NA. The rest, for the most part, have just been rearranging deck chairs.

 

[Ketch]

okay. well i'm pretty disappointed that that's a wow hero and not a dinosaur hunter.


also, it used to be that matchmaking would put people like mac/fan/erho on teams of like rank 5+ players which is when it was really shitty and pretty much made all the high level players quit.

 

[Milly79]

They need to git gud then

If I were that high I'd be carrying all the scrubs

 

[Alur]

Yep.

Right now if they'd all just play again they'd find things are fine, but only some of them came back. In a way you can't blame them...on the other hand, it's annoying hearing them bitch about it still when they still haven't came back to try it.

 

[Ketch]

They need to git gud then

If I were that high I'd be carrying all the scrubs

they did a lot of the times.

but, it's pretty un fun to play with randoms who you just assume are way worse then you, imagine how unfun it would be when it's confirmed that they're actually way worse then you.

Spoiler

like playing with milly

 

[Alur]

but, it's pretty un fun to play with randoms who you just assume are way worse then you, imagine how unfun it would be when it's confirmed that they're actually way worse then you.

Sounds like HOTS to me.

Spoiler

like playing with keyes

Rest in pepperoni

 

[Syf]

hmm https://twitter.com/bkbgrnrjefek/status/709493239900807169

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Well he only signed with VP for Katowice.

 

[Alur]

Let's hope bkb finds a real home. Probably my favorite player personality wise beyond the yung baker man.

 

[brian!]

Rehgar ult change is kind of weird like it seems really counterintuitive and really confusing for a large portion of the playerbase but maybe im not giving them enough credit.

They slapped xul real hard too

@pro v pro in na, it's part of the reason that sel isnt sustainable, high mmr ppl keep being allowed through but just dont understand how to play the game and this was the case for certain teams too (some are now former pros too). It's closer now than ever now and i dont count tempo in there, but it's also partially ppl being way above other ppl and really just not wanting to put in all the effort just for "this type of game"; in eu they're more likely to suffer through it and are probably in general more vocal about ppl being bad

 

[Alur]

Xul got that slap we expected to see for Li-Ming the first time.

Honestly don't know where it leaves him. His winrate (to me) was so nebulous and based on so many different aspects that I cannot even comment. Some games it felt like I won because I was a soaking/pushing machine, others because I eviscerated in team fights. He truly was good at everything.

I really hope he is still decent because I want to see how Mortal Wound fucks up pro play.

 

[Ketch]

Xul got that slap we expected to see for Li-Ming the first time.

Honestly don't know where it leaves him. His winrate (to me) was so nebulous and based on so many different aspects that I cannot even comment. Some games it felt like I won because I was a soaking/pushing machine, others because I eviscerated in team fights. He truly was good at everything.

I really hope he is still decent because I want to see how Mortal Wound fucks up pro play.

I dont think there's anyway he wont be relavent.

also, falstad is fucking rediculous now.

like it's stupid.

 

[brian!]

I think he'll still be around but i personally still have a hard time placing him in teams, like i dunno what he's good at besides everything and if that doesnt become thr case i dunno where he's at

I dont like mortal wound personally because it feelz bad and i dunno if itd be exciting to watch either (vs. something more visual like b0ne spear)

 

[Ketch]

I think he can be picked in the zagara spot, or against double tank or tank/bruiser comps.


actually he probably just fits in a ban spot when the other team gets zagara

 

[Alur]

@pro v pro in na, it's part of the reason that sel isnt sustainable, high mmr ppl keep being allowed through but just dont understand how to play the game and this was the case for certain teams too (some are now former pros too). It's closer now than ever now and i dont count tempo in there, but it's also partially ppl being way above other ppl and really just not wanting to put in all the effort just for "this type of game"; in eu they're more likely to suffer through it and are probably in general more vocal about ppl being bad

I think you're inflating people's perceived worth in their own skill over others. I truly don't think there are more than a handful of players who are "way above" anyone at that level in NA. Most of them are quite interchangeable.

What happens in SEL every time is what we see happen every day in HOTS and other mobas for the rest of us. Someone makes one mistake, or someone sees their MMR or rank, and then they get on tilt about it and it's all that person's fault regardless of how things actually play out.

In the case of the pros in SEL and HL, they are so used to five players all pulling each other's weight and rowing in the same direction that it tilts the fuck out of a lot of them when people don't immediately follow their lead or read their intentions. I don't find that to be a particular skill gap at all. That's just simple arrogance. They expect the game to play out in SEL and HL like it does on the pro level and as we can all attest, that's just not how it works. Even when 90% or more of the players in the game are pros.

IMO the issues they run into SEL are just a high level version of what everyone else experiences. It's just foreign to them that people can play that way so they get salty and quit playing HL, or quit playing SEL over issues they could easily resolve if they adjusted their own play too, and then here we are.

This is part of what has made the McIntyre experiment with BRFC/Naventic so interesting. He adapts his play style when he plays HL or SEL and will talk about it on stream and it's helped him expand his role and be more useful to his new pro team. If you ever watch Fan, he will even comment about when he would normally do something, but does something else simply because it fits who/what he's playing with in HL. Then on the flipside, if you watch Dread, he literally can't wrap his head around some stuff players do because he's still trying to apply all that rigidity and structure from Tempo Storm to a chaotic game mode that doesn't involve 5 players knowing each other's strengths and tendencies.

 

[Syf]

zoia done with thh lol