REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
GAF -> Pastebin -> dustbin
Kotaku Rumor: Microsoft 6 months behind in game production for X720 [Pastebin = Ban]
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
GAF -> Pastebin -> dustbin
Alx
Member
Most people don't know the difference between an OS and a UI...
GDDR3 is based on DDR2, so obvious BS pastebin.
Baconsammy
Banned
So Google and Apple are in more entertainment centers than Xbox right now? Are they feeding more TVs with entertainment than multimedia PCs running a Microsoft OS? In what regard exactly are Google and Apple "so far ahead" of Microsoft (or Sony for that matter) in the home multimedia experience?
Stripper13
Member
Joke post?
I mean don't get me wrong - I can the merit in saying that Google/Apple are doing some things better... but I'm not sure that it's sensible to say that MS cannot compete... given that they can, and are competing on several fronts.
And no - W8 is not the biggest POS ever. It's different - but it's also functional and an extremely solid Windows release if you figure out to go straight to desktop view instead of messing around with the tablet-inspired tiles. I know it was hyperbole - but even that has its limits.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Not related to the reveal,but one of Microsoft's recruiters tweeted this a week ago:
So I suppose we won't be seeing their game very soon, but even more interesting is the fact that one of the persons who retweeted that post has this in her description:
Could that be the rumored Redmond studio?
Interesting.
shinra-bansho
Member
Rockst*rs? GTAVI exclusive confirmed.
Fixed.
Miles Quaritch
Member
This is unlikely unless there's BC in the Durango, which would result in it being 'exclusive', but it's unlikely.
I do expect R* to release a GOTY edition on both next gen consoles at some point though. Seems too obvious a strategy.
jeff_rigby
Banned
There are ways around the bandwidth issues like Codecs and tiling; you only update the areas that change.
New browsers will support a form of tiling for screen acceleration where only areas that change are redrawn. If you look at browser tech it's using ideas and features found in games like Collada (Scene database) and Zlib compression which have become W3C standards.
ThisWreckage
Banned
They can try to compete, but they won't be successful. Apple wins by default due to their "Apple tax" on their products. Also, look at how Windows smart phones are faring against the iPhone.
jeff_rigby
Banned
We've been told the systems will have UMA scheme but that does not mean one memory pool. The Xbox 720 will use ARM IP for STB features and if it's like the PS4, the 8 GB of game memory will be in self refresh so there is likely a second memory pool. To support a 4K UI rather than 1080P, it's likely that the ARM IP has a 4Gb LPDDR3 memory pool. 4+8=12
Cerny (PS4) is using different terms for system memory and the RAMs (game memory) in his interview. GDDR5 "RAMS" in self refresh available for instant toggle to game mode. GDDR5 in self refresh while in OS or APP mode and it can't be used for anything, it's not connected to an active memory controller = there must be a second memory pool.
Likely includes a second GPU (ARM Mali series 600 or Power VR series 6).http://seekingalpha.com/article/1355781-the-turnaround-accelerates-for-amd?source=google_news said:
Microsoft decided to have a 1 chip solution (maybe cheaper) with ARM IP & maybe Xbox 360 CPU (for sure 2.5D or 3D assembly) hidden inside Kryptos (means hidden in Greek) while Sony decided to not support BC and split the Chip (At the GNB pulling southbridge and Trustzone IO out to be part of the second custom chip) into Thebe and a second ARM SoC with it's own memory. More expensive but higher yield and faster time to market. This might explain the PS4 Thebe being manufactured 3 months before Kryptos and AMD being more excited by the Kryptos design as it would be an all in house AMD SoC with 3 ISA families.
Overheat rumors might be Xbox 360 BC games not X86 games if the pastebin statement is correct.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Haven't developers been clamoring for a shared memory pool though?
Brad Grenz
Member
If Jeff is right, that extra 4GB of Ram wouldn't be accessible to devs so from their perspective it would still be an 8GB machine.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I thought developers were rumoured to only have access to 5gb? BS?
Stripper13
Member
You seem to be mixing up the word 'compete' with 'win'.
Microsoft is battling Apple on a few fronts, probably even more against Google - which is the definition of competing. Whether or not they'll win? Who knows? Certainly not the average GAFer - I doubt they'll get far in the Smart Phone business, but I'm not an executive in any of these companies with access to strategies, costs etc. There's still some fight left in MS I imagine.
Also - Microsoft are competing with Apple on more than just the hardware front. It doesn't take a genius to see that Apple and Google are small fries in the OS and Office Software industry. Does that mean they are not competing? No - they'll do their best against Microsoft in that area.
Compress all you want but when someone has a 50+ms connection the machine thats computing everything its still useless.
Is it even possible for a external ARM CPU to provide all the interrupts to for example, start a process and properly page memory on a x86 CPU. Because I'm pretty sure a lot of those are internal and have to be done on the CPU meaning you cannot get around running at least some OS code on the x86 cores.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yeah but it complicates the OS and for many, they can't imagine such a HSA system so they dismiss the idea of two GPUs, two memory pools and three ISA families in the same chip.
The UVD in AMD GPUs is actually made up of a Mips processor with it's own memory and I think a DSP. It origionally came from the Xilleon 240 a ATI 2005 design to support in one chip a complete Cable TV chipset (except RF tuner). So all AMD GPUs with UVD have had a SoC within a SoC for years depending on how you define a SoC.
Yeah, user experience will vary and you were being conservative with the 50ms. There is more than a 50ms delay with most TV displays and when you add that to the Internet delay, the game starts to be unplayable.KidBeta said:
So what do you do, eliminate local delays with controllers, local Network and TV screen so that you can afford the Internet delays; this is in many whitepapers on Cloud gaming.
The 2013 AMD APUs are the first that support third party IP (multiple ISA families) and 3/4 HSA except for Kavari (hUMA). The Thebe and Kryptos are likely using 2014 designs for the GNB from Pennar and Samara Jaguar and support full HSA; 2013 designs already have a universal open buss and Fabric memory controller that allows multiple ISA families to talk to each other. The point you bring up is valid with a separate ARM SoC, there has to be that AMD open source buss between the PS4 Second custom chip as southbridge and the GNB which contained Northbridge/Southbridge/Memory controller/GPU and IO. Southbridge and IO (Trustzone ARM IP) are moved out of GNB to the second chip.KidBeta said:
Cerny said the second custom chip is connected to the Hard Disk. Trustzone CPU must be between the Hard disk/Flash and the X86 CPU to manage a Root of Trust X86 kernel; that tells you that there is a connection between the ARM CPU and X86 memory and registers. Snapshot boot and APD require access to internal registers and memory too.
They can talk to each other but can they issue a internal interrupt, I'm pretty sure it cannot meaning theres no way around it. Paging, the page tables and a bunch of other stuffs (APIC, DMA, etc) get built internally and require instructions to run on the CPU.
Melchiah
Member
If you're going to accept the positive rumors of that particular Pastebin, you'll also have to accept the negative ones in it. No cherry picking.
Can someone post the link to the one in question.
Melchiah
Member
VI = 6
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yup, in background mode (APU off) the second chip is running an OS. Cerny said when you press the PS button control is passed to one Jaguar processor that likely is running in the second chips LPDDR3 memory managed by the ARM Trustzone.
You are missing the the idea behind HSA HARDWARE designs, everything you say is true but provided for with AMD and HSA Foundation designs. It's really hard to get your mind around this. ARM was one of the first (after AMD) to sign on with the HSA Foundation. Multiple rumors have the 32nm Xbox 360 married to ARM IP and for sure the PS4 and Xbox 720 have ARM IO and likely the 22nm PS3 has ARM IP. This is a revolution!
Hadn't read it, since pastbin is always BS.
Looked reasonable enough until it said 'GDDR3'. People always make a mistake somewhere...
I wouldn't put much stock in that rumour
12GB of GDDR3 is retarded they are adding more ram but working off DDR2 based technology :/.
I understand it I'm just doubting your interpretation of it.
Ludicrous Speed
Banned
They can just do like Nintendo. Release the console before it's ready and release a patch six months after release. As long as Xbox Live is working, Microsoft will be happy.
Unfortunately most of these solutions can be applied to local gaming too, giving it back its perceptible quality advantage. And the genres that would benefit the most from really impressive shared hardware also benefit the most from wringing every last ounce of lag out.
There's still a lot of long-term potential, but IMO most of it is in local clouds.
Who is 'accepting' the rumor? Read again.I said 'if' true. Plus where are the fake guideline that state all or none on any of the Pastry rumors.
Either way I have said it all along, iif MS pulls off BC, it's THE megaton as it will drive sales from the millions of the hardcore 360 gamers on Live and it provides a conduit to your friends list and games from the 360. Being able to still play your 360 games as you always did right from the NextBox itself will be the ton of Mega that no one thought posssible.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Another day, another paste bin. I don't believe any of them. Not the positive ones nor the negative ones.
iceatcs
Junior Member
Yeah it can be quite annoy. They are quite keep on PasteBin and Twitter, these are pretty much like a fan blog.
jeff_rigby
Banned
To question my interpretation you have to go back a step and ask why is ARM being used for STB functionality. The answer to that is AOAC, features that must be on when the TV is on which need low power modes and Trustzone security for DRM in all it's forms coming with the FCC mandate that cable companies have to provide RVU by June 2014.
EU and Energy Star standards for Game consoles require power modes and APD (Auto Power Down) which when supported give us the features: toggle between game mode and OS, all Games have to be run from the Hard disk, 16 gig Flash and more. The idea is to also provide the features like instant on that consumers have come to expect in handhelds on a game console. LPDDR3 in the second chip likely has a HTML5 browser software stack always loaded and in standby mode the LPDDR3 memory is in self refresh with a small amount of SRAM being used by a small ARM CPU to run AOAC functions.
PS4 Your arguments so far have been about the PS4 second chip right?
Standby = AOAC mode LPDDR3 in self refresh only a small CPU and SRAM memory running with timed look at CEC and WiFi-Bluetooth-LAN < 500mw
Standby mode with additional features = Camera and Mics active for wake on voice and Gesture ? new handheld IP 5X more efficient is available (Default must be 500mw standby with user menu option for additional features) Possible that noise and IR reflection change can put the console in a higher power state with default to lower state after a period of no activity (vacant room); might meet < 500mw.
Background mode = LPDDR3 and ARM SoC active <2 watts
OS and STB mode = ARM SoC active, 1 Jaguar package active with AMD GPU and memory controller inactive with GDDR5 memory in refresh mode = 3-7 watts
Game mode = everything active 40-130 watts
ARM IP is used otherwise AOAC is not possible and STB and OS modes use 10X more power and in some cases exceed the Energy star allocated power regs.
*logs into GAF*
I wonder why this thread is still going?
*enters thread*
Over SIXTY pages?! Wow. There must be some lively discussion going on here and not just people yammering on about tired, desperate nonsense from Pastebin. No Sir I...,
*reads*
Oh.
*leaves thread*
Speaking of debbie downers if you are looking to buy some you can find me in the OT Ice Hockey thread.
*sniff*
As you were.
I wonder why this thread is still going?
*enters thread*
Over SIXTY pages?! Wow. There must be some lively discussion going on here and not just people yammering on about tired, desperate nonsense from Pastebin. No Sir I...,
*reads*
Oh.
*leaves thread*
Speaking of debbie downers if you are looking to buy some you can find me in the OT Ice Hockey thread.
*sniff*
As you were.
I hope Rigby's speculation about the ARM CPU and seperate RAM pools for the OS in both consoles pans out. It would be awesome if the CPUs didn't have to deal with it since Jaguar isn't too powerful and having a full 8GB of RAM for games would be an ideal situation.
Brad Grenz
Member
There would still be a game OS running on the APU and using a portion of the main pool. The ARM chip would be running in parallel, and it couldn't effectively provide performance sensitive OS services.
Jaguar isn't powerful in terms of raw power but it's much more efficient than the PPC from the 360.
This doesn't say much, it's a CPU on a system that it will release 8 years after the 360 after all.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yeah, that's still to be determined because we don't know Sony plans (ARM CPU or GPU used etc.). EDIT: to trustzone manage 8Gb of GDDR5 wouldn't it have to be a 64 bit ARM CPU and for a 4K UI a ARM Mali series 600 or PowerVR series 6.
In any case Cerny said OS control passes to a Jaguar CPU when the APU is awake. Is that:
1) a HSAIL virtual engine?
2) necessary to implement the Sony 2 GPU patent?
3) an arbitrary decision, doesn't matter?
I don't think GDDR5 memory will be used by the Jaguar CPU for OS functions, remember in OS & APP mode GDDR5 is in self refresh (best guess based on Cerny statement with some wiggle room for error). Trustzone managed LPDDR3 in the Second Chip makes sense from a security standpoint for both the Jaguar HSAIL virtual engine and the CPU in charge of the OS. Imagine what you could do if you hacked the HSAIL engine routines.
Very fast start and the ultimate in low power would have the OS in LPDDR3 in self refresh mode during standby. Same could apply to self refreshed GDDR5 @ about 10X LPDDR3 or 50mw? Can someone confirm what 8 GB Self refresh GDDR5 would require. I'm guessing based on GDDR5 being built with DDR3 and at 0 clock it should default to DDR3 self refresh power.
May I enquire into how you plan on getting the IDT and IVT working for the x86 cores when the code they are jumping to isn't even in the address space that they exist in.
NemesisPrime
Banned
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
This thread is becoming a waste of brain cells.
Officerrob
Banned
Between this and the circle jerk going on in the Sony E3 press conference thread, these next two weeks can't move fast enough because we have hit the dry spell of next gen news/rumors
Melchiah
Member
Well, if you hope a part of the rumor is true, you might as well brace yourself for what else is mentioned in the source.
I personally think the importance of BC is overrated. I bought the 60GB PS3 for the BC, and the only PS2 game I replayed was Silent Hill 3.