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[ErasureAcer]

Is Bernie raising taxes for middle class Americans with healthcare if he's saving the average taxpayer money? (Besides all the other benefits of a single payer plan). How low can these attacks go? Donated another $50 to the Bern today and got out and door knocked.

So sick of Hillary's attack dogs on TV. They're all slimy as hell.

 

[And_Gignac]

So... he's flip flopping.

Yes! He pretty much is. He has flip flopped another couple of times during his career. Thats what politicians do.

But as long as his core-message remains intact, the flip flopping is fine. I doubt gun rights form an important part of his values.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Is Bernie raising taxes for middle class Americans with healthcare if he's saving the average taxpayer money? (Besides all the other benefits of a single payer plan). How low can these attacks go? Donated another $50 to the Bern today and got out and door knocked.

So sick of Hillary's attack dogs on TV. They're all slimy as hell.

Great idea. Telling middle class suburban voters their taxes will be higher and they'll have to wait in like with the poors.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I don't know why Bernie doesn't phrase it as you'll be using some of the money you're already paying for health insurance toward taxes that cover medicare for all.

I don't really think that would help.
At the end of the day "my health insurance is mine though, why would I want to pay for other people?"

 

[User 463088]

Is Bernie raising taxes for middle class Americans with healthcare if he's saving the average taxpayer money? (Besides all the other benefits of a single payer plan). How low can these attacks go? Donated another $50 to the Bern today and got out and door knocked.
.

Yes, he absolutely is still raising people's taxes. What you're saying makes sense, however, it's too difficult for the average American voter to follow. It's like asking someone do you support me raising the price of milk if I decrease the price of bread by an even greater amount. They're still going to say no.

The way to single payer is through the ACA via a public option that allows people to opt in. Then, you can transition away from selling health insurance and move people towards the public option. It's not sexy. It's not perfect. But it could work.

Also, if anything that's been said about Bernie so far you consider "low" I shudder to think what you'd feel if Bernie made it to the General.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Is Bernie raising taxes for middle class Americans with healthcare if he's saving the average taxpayer money? (Besides all the other benefits of a single payer plan). How low can these attacks go? Donated another $50 to the Bern today and got out and door knocked.

So sick of Hillary's attack dogs on TV. They're all slimy as hell.

People generally stop listening around

Bernie raising taxes for middle class Americans

and that's all they remember.

 

[Tesseract]

So... he's flip flopping.

it's called learning

I still don't buy the Iowa polls showing Bernie closing. I think Hillary's coalition will put her through the top. I think that's the key. She struggled in 2008 because Obama spent months, even maybe years building a network coalition infrastructure that propelled him through the stratosphere. Building infrastructure takes lot of time. It may be too late for Bernie. He might win IA and NH but SEC is death. You absolutely need the infrastructure in place. Sadly, Killer Mike would prove too little too late.

that's a personal problem

can't stop the bern, people are wise to hillary's corporate masters

 

[Holmes]

it's called learning



that's a personal problem

can't stop the bern, people are wise to hillary's corporate masters

It's unfortunate that it took countless gun massacres for Bernie to learn the dangers of guns but I'm sure Hillary will be happy to have him as an ally in her fight for comprehensive gun reforms.

 

[Aurongel]

I've been saying for months - the republican donar base will be contributing to Hilary if Cruz wins the nomination. He is utterly, without question, the most loathed person in republican leadership circles. It's hard to overstate how much they dislike him, but 'wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire' is a good place to start.

There have been stories leaking from the senate, house and republican backers for two years now about how repellant Cruz is. People who are happy to sit down and eat with some of the most outright bigoted people in the USA hate him. He's honestly that bad a person.

Any links for this? I honestly want to know what their reasoning against him is.

 

[danm999]

Seems like a flip flop yeah.

 

[Tesseract]

It's unfortunate that it took countless gun massacres for Bernie to learn the dangers of guns but I'm sure Hillary will be happy to have him as an ally in her fight for comprehensive gun reforms.

that's the kind of balderdash i'd expect from her campaign manager

 

[Chichikov]

Guns are such non-issue.
Like, I'm not saying gun violence is not an important issue, but the differences between Clinton and Sanders are inconsequential.
Anything remotely serious will have to come from congress, and even ignoring the fact that this is highly unlikely, does anyone seriously think that Bernie would veto a gun control bill?

 

[A Human Becoming]

The way to single payer is through the ACA via a public option that allows people to opt in. Then, you can transition away from selling health insurance and move people towards the public option. It's not sexy. It's not perfect. But it could work.

If not for fucking Lieberman we would have had it!

 

[Tesseract]

I've been saying for months - the republican donar base will be contributing to Hilary if Cruz wins the nomination. He is utterly, without question, the most loathed person in republican leadership circles. It's hard to overstate how much they dislike him, but 'wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire' is a good place to start.

There have been stories leaking from the senate, house and republican backers for two years now about how repellant Cruz is. People who are happy to sit down and eat with some of the most outright bigoted people in the USA hate him. He's honestly that bad a person.

polls put bernie over hillary v. cruz, so they should donate to bernie

not that he needs their money

 

[User 406]

the differences between Clinton and Sanders are inconsequential.

Yeah, but that 2008 record for vicious intraparty bickering over two candidates who are extremely close in policy won't break itself.

 

[User 463088]

If not for fucking Lieberman we would have had it!

Agreed. Dude was an asshole of the major order. Ugh.

 

[disastermouse]

Raising the minimum wage would be huge. This is something that will affect every low-income citizen in the country. A public option for Obamacare would also be major as well, but I can't see that passing without the Democrats having a sixty seat majority in the Senate.

It won't happen because Hillary. The worst thing that could ever happen for her would be getting a majority in the house and senate. She wouldn't have any excuse to stay center-right. She'd be on the spot for Wall Street and banking reform (which she won't do). She needs that Republican majority to stay so she can just throw up her arms and say, "I can't get anything done because...Republicans."

 

[Iolo]

??????????????

this is so dumb

This is for the recent ballistic missile program violations. The White House almost imposed these sanctions a week or two ago and then suddenly pulled back (possibly because of the ongoing prisoner negotiations and imminent drop of nuclear sanctions). So this is not surprising.

 

[disastermouse]

I eagerly await the Bernsplaining on this one.

You know, other than he was 100% totally and unequivocally wrong in his initial support of the Bill. Because we all know that can never be the case.

What, the gun bill? Yeah, probably a shitty vote. I'm pro-gun, so I don't really care. I'll likely never own one, but I don't care that others do.

I mean...I grew up on 75 acres with hunting and whatnot. Deer season is a religious holiday where I grew up.

 

[disastermouse]

But in an ideologically pure, consistently liberal way , of course.

Gun control isn't a classically liberal issue. Hell, Christian fundamentalism isn't a classically conservative issue.

 

[Holmes]

I forget who was asking if any candidate was getting involved in African-American communities in places like barbershops and hair salons like Obama was in 2008 but...

https://mobile.twitter.com/FormasForever/status/688383790553649153

US Black Chambers also endorsed her.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Seems like a flip flop yeah.

its a flip flop but since the b-word or c-word Hillary is held to a higher standard than the great savior bernie its okay for him to do it.

 

[danm999]

its a flip flop but since the b-word or c-word Hillary is held to a higher standard than the great savior bernie its okay for him to do it.

It really doesn't bother me so long as they're moving in a direction I agree with. Just like Obama on marriage equality.

 

[disastermouse]

its a flip flop but since the b-word or c-word Hillary is held to a higher standard than the great savior bernie its okay for him to do it.

Punctuation?

I think Bernie is coming up against mass shootings and urban violence that just weren't part of the context for his original stance on guns. I don't know if the integrity thing can be pinned on keeping a position when it becomes incorrect or needs examination. Do you think Bernie's only motivation is political? Could be.

But a lot of people feel most of Hillary's stances are purely political and pragmatic. I don't even know if she's a Democrat because she believes those positions or because she and Bill are already power players in the party.

 

[Iolo]

I forget who was asking if any candidate was getting involved in African-American communities in places like barbershops and hair salons like Obama was in 2008 but...

https://mobile.twitter.com/FormasForever/status/688383790553649153

US Black Chambers also endorsed her.

Interesting, thanks. Also that second url is impressively long.

 

[NeoXChaos]

New NBC polls out tomorrow.

 

[danm999]

I think Bernie is coming up against mass shootings and urban violence that just weren't part of the context for his original stance on guns. I don't know if the integrity thing can be pinned on keeping a position when it becomes incorrect or needs examination. Do you think Bernie's only motivation is political? Could be.

To me the idea he publicly shifted a few weeks before the first Democratic primaries because of political exigencies is far more explicable than someone with decades of Congressional experience only just realized the need for gun control measures in 2016.

Again, I don't have a problem with it, but I think that's what happened.

 

[A Human Becoming]

If I remember correctly in the latest FAQ we received it pointed to the Sandy Hook shooting changing his gun stance.

 

[User1608]

It really doesn't bother me so long as they're moving in a direction I agree with. Just like Obama on marriage equality.

Same here.

 

[Angry Fork]

Not being that big on gun control (at least in the traditional democrat sense) isn't a "pragmatic" thing. Gun control in America = more harassment laws for black and brown people. It never affects the christian taliban in this country. Gun control should be paired with taking away guns from police who are much more dangerous than random individuals. Bernie already supports all of the common sense shit Obama wants to do.

Hilary people in here starting to get mad as fuck. You guys don't have to worry too much she still has tons of shit in her favor. Hoping Bernie overcomes the odds but it's nowhere near sure yet, still have a lot of time to go, supporting him till the end. Hopefully Hilary continues the weird attacks and hawkish shit as it only helps the Sandernistas.

 

[danm999]

I actually wonder if the concept of a flip flop as an attack has totally lost its teeth compared to 2004 anyway.

I mean look at Trump. That guy has been on most sides of several huge issues and nobody gives a shit. He managed to say the US had to take Syrian refugees in mid last year, then quickly pivoted to banning Muslims altogether and nobody in the GOP gave much of a shit.

 

[Makai]

I actually wonder if the concept of a flip flop as an attack has totally lost its teeth compared to 2004 anyway.

I mean look at Trump. That guy has been on most sides of several huge issues and nobody gives a shit. He managed to say the US had to take Syrian refugees in mid last year, then quickly pivoted to banning Muslims altogether and nobody in the GOP gave much of a shit.

Carson was flip flopping in every interview back when he was in second place.

 

[disastermouse]

Carson was flip flopping in every interview back when he was in second place.

Yeah, but it damaged him.

 

[danm999]

I think the only flip flops that harmed Carson were those that involved hammers and his mother.

Also the race shifted to foreign policy around the Paris attacks and Carson was woefully unequipped to deal with any of that (even more than domestic stuff and that's saying something).

 

[Poodlestrike]

I think the only flip flops that harmed Carson were those that involved hammers and his mother.

Also the race shifted to foreign policy around the Paris attacks and Carson was woefully unequipped to deal with any of that (even more than domestic stuff and that's saying something).

What really killed him was that he was unprepared to present himself as either experienced or learning. His whole thing was built on the appearance of folksy wisdom, and when that wisdom dried up people went "oh right this guy's just sleepy."

 

[A Human Becoming]

Carson peaked early November, which is when his fly rap came out. Coincidence? I think not.

No, it was probably a number of factors including just a natural cycle in the primaries. Herman Cain peaked around the same time in 2011.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

I think voters view both Hillary and Sanders as pro-gun control. Trying to paint one or the other as being harder on gun control is trench warfare in my opinion.

 

[B-Dubs]

Carson peaked early November, which is when his fly rap came out. Coincidence? I think not.

No, it was probably a number of factors including just a natural cycle in the primaries. Herman Cain peaked around the same time in 2011.

Hermain Cain died more to his stupidity being revealed, what with the uz-beki-beki-bekistan shit all his other crap.

There's only so long an utter moron can stay in the lead, Carson lasted a lot longer than I thought he would and that might be due to the fact he's generally a quiet dude.

I think voters view both Hillary and Sanders as pro-gun control. Trying to paint one or the other as being harder on gun control is trench warfare in my opinion.

It's the sort of thing that would work in a Dem primary though. They agree on basically everything domestically, so if they're going to fight it out it's going to be a fight over inches.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I actually wonder if the concept of a flip flop as an attack has totally lost its teeth compared to 2004 anyway.

I mean look at Trump. That guy has been on most sides of several huge issues and nobody gives a shit. He managed to say the US had to take Syrian refugees in mid last year, then quickly pivoted to banning Muslims altogether and nobody in the GOP gave much of a shit.

I think it depends. The original position is sometimes taken as unforgivable now matter what they say now (see: Rubio swearing up and down that he hates immigrants and still getting no traction thanks to the Gang of Eight bill). On the other hand, Chris Christie has flip-flopped on almost every position he's ever had and has faced little criticism over it and his favorability ratings have improved a massive amount.

 

[Makai]

Yeah, but it damaged him.

Not at all. He rose in the polls. "I definitely attacked my mother with a hammer" etc did him in.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I wish we could isolate the degree to which the "The Pyramids were built by Joseph to store grain" belief impacted Carson's poll numbers.

 

[B-Dubs]

Not at all. He rose in the polls. "I definitely attacked my mother with a hammer" etc did him in.

I get why he lies about doing horrible shit, but I still don't understand why it's a thing people do. Like, do they not think god is a cool enough dude so they try and pump him up to make him better? I dunno, it's just a general trend I never properly understood.

 

[Makai]

I get why he lies about doing horrible shit, but I still don't understand why it's a thing people do. Like, do they not think god is a cool enough dude so they try and pump him up to make him better? I dunno, it's just a general trend I never properly understood.

There was the thread about the guy who admitted he lied to sound more interesting.

 

[B-Dubs]

There was the thread about the guy who admitted he lied to sound more interesting.

This is a different thing, you see it a lot among born-again Christians. They talk up the shit they've done in the past, throwing it into random conversations, just so they can talk about how awesome god is. Like they're his hype men or something. I get the why and the thinking behind it, the whole thing just makes 0 sense to me.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

It's the sort of thing that would work in a Dem primary though. They agree on basically everything domestically, so if they're going to fight it out it's going to be a fight over inches.

To make that battle worthwhile you have to convince voters that you're not only more dedicated to the issue, but also that your opponent is inadequately dedicated to it. You can make the case that Hillary is further left than Sanders on gun control, but can you make the case that Sanders is unsatisfactory on the issue? I'm not sure. I think most people who prefer Bernie's platform would find his gun control stance to be "good enough" even if they like Clinton's more. If Hillary wants to chip away at Bernie with this, she has to make the case that he's "not good enough" on the issue.

 

[RastaMentality]

Would people be interested in a compendium of important downballot races and where to spend their $ if they want to give?

Yes. I did just donate to the DSCC though.

 

[B-Dubs]

To make that battle worthwhile you have to convince voters that you're not only more dedicated to the issue, but also that your opponent is inadequately dedicated to it. You can make the case that Hillary is further left than Sanders on gun control, but can you make the case that Sanders is unsatisfactory on the issue? I'm not sure. I think most people who prefer Bernie's platform would find his gun control stance to be "good enough" even if they like Clinton's more. If Hillary wants to chip away at Bernie with this, she has to make the case that he's "not good enough" on the issue.

It's something that can be done, given Bernie's congressional record. There's been two majorly important gun votes in the last 25 years, stuff with real importance, the Brady Bill and immunity for gun manufacturers. If she can hammer home how important those votes were it could potentially do real damage given Bernie's record (he was on the wrong side of both). His team obviously sees this, hence his reversal on the latter.

 

[User 463088]

To make that battle worthwhile you have to convince voters that you're not only more dedicated to the issue, but also that your opponent is inadequately dedicated to it. You can make the case that Hillary is further left than Sanders on gun control, but can you make the case that Sanders is unsatisfactory on the issue? I'm not sure. I think most people who prefer Bernie's platform would find his gun control stance to be "good enough" even if they like Clinton's more. If Hillary wants to chip away at Bernie with this, she has to make the case that he's "not good enough" on the issue.

The problem is, his current stance doesn't always gel with what he's actually done on the issue. He voted against the Brady Bill five times. He voted to protect gun manufacturers. He voted to allow guns on Amtrak. He is not as strong as Hillary or O'Malley on this issue. For me, though, my biggest issue with his stance is this is the one issue he calls for pragmatism and for us not to "shout" about it. Just this one. Everything else, we go balls to the wall, pie in the sky...but just not this one. He may say it's political reality, but nearly everything he's proposing lacks the same basis in reality that gun reform would. Those are all fine....just not on guns.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

It's something that can be done, given Bernie's congressional record. There's been two majorly important gun votes in the last 25 years, stuff with real importance, the Brady Bill and immunity for gun manufacturers. If she can hammer home how important those votes were it could potentially do real damage given Bernie's record (he was on the wrong side of both). His team obviously sees this, hence his reversal on the latter.

I agree, but it's a tightrope walk for Clinton given that it then invites Sanders to examine the issues where voters may find Hillary inadequately liberal, and going tit for tat with Sanders on that front is pretty dicey. I think if she wants to stick him where it counts, you have to cast doubts on his electability and scare people on the prospect of a president Trump. If Hillary insists on playing offense, I think that's her best line of attack.

 

[B-Dubs]

I agree, but it's a tightrope walk for Clinton given that it then invites Sanders to examine the issues where voters may find Hillary inadequately liberal, and going tit for tat with Sanders on that front is pretty dicey. I think if she wants to stick him where it counts, you have to cast doubts on his electability and scare people on the prospect of a president Trump. If Hillary insists on playing offense, I think that's her best line of attack.

The problem is, his current stance doesn't always gel with what he's actually done on the issue. He voted against the Brady Bill five times. He voted to protect gun manufacturers. He voted to allow guns on Amtrak. He is not as strong as Hillary or O'Malley on this issue. For me, though, my biggest issue with his stance is this is the one issue he calls for pragmatism and for us not to "shout" about it. Just this one. Everything else, we go balls to the wall, pie in the sky...but just not this one. He may say it's political reality, but nearly everything he's proposing lacks the same basis in reality that gun reform would. Those are all fine....just not on guns.

Adam's got the line of attack she should take should she choose to do so. It'd basically hit at the core of why people like him.