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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops

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O

Ogrekiller

Member
Angry Fork said:
When a fascist like Trump calls Sanders a communist, it doesn't make Sanders look bad, it legitimizes communism and rehabilitates the word in the eyes of the general public. Most people in the US aren't fascists and recognize Sanders isn't a scary evil guy. If they begin to associate left wing politics with someone like him it will be an overall positive thing. If Sanders gets the nomination I hope they do call him tons of left wing names, so those names gain a positive image again when people see it associated with a peaceful/reasonable guy like Bernie.
Click to expand...

It took Nixon to go to China.
 
Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
Roland_Gunner said:
If people are seriously suggesting that Americans won't have negative connotations towards the word communist in the near future we should probably go ahead and close this thread. As has been posted pointed here numerous times US voters are more willing to vote for Muslims or atheists than socialists, much less communists.
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I didn't necessarily say that. I meant if someone like Bernie (who doesn't display signs of traditional 20th century communism that people dislike) is associated with the word communist, people will begin to look at the word again and think about its meaning rather than immediately dismiss it.

For example people like/support the idea of free at point of use college education/healthcare. If this is called socialist by the right, then people will say, well then is socialism a good thing? because these policies seem like good ideas, and so on. This has already started happening and it's why young people (and to an extent older ones) aren't put off by the word socialist anymore. Bernie is giving the word a positive image, which is why I don't care about the right labeling him left wing stuff.

The same thing happens when you tell people Einstein and MLK were socialists. Neither of those 2 are scary evil people, so if given this information people will wonder why socialist is given such a bad rep if guys like these believe in it. This kind of thing is a gateway to opening more people to left wing ideas.
 
S

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Look I'm down with comrade Bernie's socialist vision, but I'll be damned if I can work up the enthusiasm for Old-Ass White Dude™ #45 to run the country again so soon. I say this as a white dude working my way up to being old ass.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
Angry Fork said:
I didn't necessarily say that. I meant if someone like Bernie (who doesn't display signs of traditional 20th century communism that people dislike) is associated with the word communist, people will begin to look at the word again and think about its meaning rather than immediately dismiss it.

For example people like/support the idea of free at point of use college education/healthcare. If this is called socialist by the right, then people will say, well then is socialism a good thing? because these policies seem like good ideas, and so on. This has already started happening and it's why young people (and to an extent older ones) aren't put off by the word socialist anymore. Bernie is giving the word a positive image, which is why I don't care about the right labeling him left wing stuff.
Click to expand...

He is not doing that. He will not do that in the next 9 months. It is a completely unrealistic expectations game.

We live in a country in which 40% of those who receive Medicare and Social Security do not believe they receive benefits from the government. We live in a country in which the phrase "Don't let the government get it's hands on my Medicare" is a real thing real people believe. People do not like the idea of government control over things. It's that simple. Obamacare almost exploded from teh get go because people saw it as a "government takeover of healthcare." Imagine what they'd do when it really is a government takeover of healthcare.

Young people have no idea what socialism actually is. To them, it boils down to "I get free stuff." An over simplification, but it's true. You are never goint to win the 50+ crowd over on socialism which is, by and large, synonymous with communism in their minds. My mom, 68, took a look at that article about Sanders and immediately had an intensively negative reaction. She knows the difference between the two systems, but is still put off by the idea. It's an ideological battle that Bernie Sanders is ill equipped to win.


Speaking of my mother, anyone else have female family members who are really excited about Hillary? My mom's pretty laid back when it comes to politics, but she's super into it this year. She gets pissed when the media starts attacking Hillary. I've never seen this from her before. (I mean, she'd cuss out Romney and Palin like everyday, but never before so energized by being able to vote for someone instead of against someone.) She was talking politics to my sister today. It's interesting to see.
 
H

Holmes

Member
adam387 said:
Speaking of my mother, anyone else have female family members who are really excited about Hillary? My mom's pretty laid back when it comes to politics, but she's super into it this year. She gets pissed when the media starts attacking Hillary. I've never seen this from her before. (I mean, she'd cuss out Romney and Palin like everyday, but never before so energized by being able to vote for someone instead of against someone.) She was talking politics to my sister today. It's interesting to see.
Click to expand...
My sister-in-law hates Hillary and supports Sanders. But she's a, um... one of those girls that constantly fights with other girls and is catty. I don't think she likes the idea of a woman in a position of authority being the President.
 
Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
adam387 said:
He is not doing that. He will not do that in the next 9 months. It is a completely unrealistic expectations game.

We live in a country in which 40% of those who receive Medicare and Social Security do not believe they receive benefits from the government. We live in a country in which the phrase "Don't let the government get it's hands on my Medicare" is a real thing real people believe. People do not like the idea of government control over things. It's that simple. Obamacare almost exploded from teh get go because people saw it as a "government takeover of healthcare." Imagine what they'd do when it really is a government takeover of healthcare.

Young people have no idea what socialism actually is. To them, it boils down to "I get free stuff." An over simplification, but it's true. You are never goint to win the 50+ crowd over on socialism which is, by and large, synonymous with communism in their minds. My mom, 68, took a look at that article about Sanders and immediately had an intensively negative reaction. She knows the difference between the two systems, but is still put off by the idea. It's an ideological battle that Bernie Sanders is ill equipped to win.
Click to expand...

I think this is a much too cynical assessment of the population, at least populations in larger cities which contain more people and are more progressive. If this was really the case Sanders wouldn't be popular at all.

Right wing people, libertarians etc. already have their mind made up on this, I'm not talking about them, they should be defeated rather than persuaded. I mean the rest of the population which is socially liberal and beginning to flirt with left wing economic views. I don't believe they have an interest in Trump's shit talking. Bernie has started to give people a positive view of things the right calls evil/scary etc. so I'm fine with them continuing to do that.

I feel like liberals severely overestimate Trump's appeal and act like he has a real chance to win. He appeals to the christian taliban and some pockets of randoms who don't know what he's actually about. Whoever becomes the GOP nominee will lose by a wide margin to either Hilary or Sanders, doesn't matter which. They haven't learned their lesson with Romney and have doubled down on the things which caused him to lose. All that shit can win congress but not president.
 
R

Roland_Gunner

Member
Angry Fork said:
I didn't necessarily say that. I meant if someone like Bernie is associated with the word communist, people will begin to look at the word again and think about its meaning rather than immediately dismiss it.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but saying the Sanders "legitimizes communism and rehabilitates the word in the eyes of the general public" sure makes it sound like that's what you're saying.

Angry Fork said:
The same thing happens when you tell people Einstein and MLK were socialists. Neither of those 2 are scary evil people, so if given this information people will wonder why socialist is given such a bad rep if guys like these believe in it. This kind of thing is a gateway to opening more people to left wing ideas.
Click to expand...

This may work for individuals but there is no evidence that it moves the general public. In the US phrases like socialism and, especially, communism are so loaded that its better to let it go. There is no inherent value in being a socialist when you can implement the same policies as a progressive or whatever.
 
Y

Yellowtail

Member
YouGov confirms Hillarymentum.

Hillary Clinton has widened her lead in a new national poll of likely Democratic primary voters
Click to expand...

demrace.png


https://today.yougov.com/news/2016/01/17/democratic-race-pits-experience-against-honesty/
 
U

User 463088

Banned
Angry Fork said:
I think this is a much too cynical assessment of the population, at least populations in larger cities which contain more people and are more progressive. If this was really the case Sanders wouldn't be popular at all.

Right wing people, libertarians etc. already have their mind made up on this, I'm not talking about them, they should be defeated rather than persuaded. I mean the rest of the population which is socially liberal and beginning to flirt with left wing economic views. I don't believe they have an interest in Trump's shit talking. Bernie has started to give people a positive view of things the right calls evil/scary etc. so I'm fine with them continuing to do that.

I feel like liberals severely overestimate Trump's appeal and act like he has a real chance to win. He appeals to the christian taliban and some pockets of randoms who don't know what he's actually about. Whoever becomes the GOP nominee will lose by a wide margin to either Hilary or Sanders, doesn't matter which. They haven't learned their lesson with Romney and have doubled down on the things which caused him to lose. All that shit can win congress but not president.
Click to expand...

Larger cities are not indicative of the nation as a whole.

Here's a poll, from this year, that talks about people's perceptions of socialism.


Among Independents, Socialism is seen favorably by 22% of people and negatively by 54%. 8% of Independents think calling someone a socialist is a complement, while 36% think it is an insult. 52% of Independents have a favorable view of capitalism, the thing Bernie Sanders specifically said he wasn't on national television this year.

Only 28% of people, regardless of ideology, would be comfortable or enthusiastic about supporting a socialist for President. Not even a majority of Democrats feel comfortable or enthusiastic about it.

When running a national campaign, socialism is a problem. I'm not saying it should be. I'm not saying it ought to be. I'm saying it is. There was a time that Bernie could have tried to deal with this. He didn't. He will be beaten over the head with a giant red hammer and sickle should he get to the General.
 
Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
adam387 said:
Larger cities are not indicative of the nation as a whole.

Here's a poll, from this year, that talks about people's perceptions of socialism.


Among Independents, Socialism is seen favorably by 22% of people and negatively by 54%. 8% of Independents think calling someone a socialist is a complement, while 36% think it is an insult. 52% of Independents have a favorable view of capitalism, the thing Bernie Sanders specifically said he wasn't on national television this year.

Only 28% of people, regardless of ideology, would be comfortable or enthusiastic about supporting a socialist for President. Not even a majority of Democrats feel comfortable or enthusiastic about it.

When running a national campaign, socialism is a problem. I'm not saying it should be. I'm not saying it ought to be. I'm saying it is. There was a time that Bernie could have tried to deal with this. He didn't. He will be beaten over the head with a giant red hammer and sickle should he get to the General.
Click to expand...

I don't think it would be that big of a deal, but even if it was I'd still prefer that struggle over Hilary who is further right than Obama. Expecting Hilary to be progressive is to me a bigger leap of faith than expecting Sanders to win presidency.
 
F

FiggyCal

Banned
Angry Fork said:
I don't think it would be that big of a deal, but even if it was I'd still prefer that struggle over Hilary who is further right than Obama. Expecting Hilary to be progressive is to me a bigger leap of faith than expecting Sanders to win presidency.
Click to expand...

Right. She's gone the opposite way. She's not supporting single payer and I'm still waiting for a specific number on the minimum wage.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
Holy shit in that YouGov poll did ya'll take a look at Hillary's favorables with minorities versus Bernie'ss?

Among AA she's at 89/7.
Among Hispanics she's at 86/11.

Among AA Bernie is at 64/22
Among Hispanics Bernie is at 57/24.

She has a 57 point lead among AA and a 49 point lead among Hispanics.

The only group in the YouGov poll he wins is under 30s and it's by 10 points. The 30-44 he loses by 21, the 45-64 he loses by 22 and the over 65s he loses by 47 points. That's freaking terrible.
 
D

Daniel B·

Banned
Yeah, Bernie's age is such an issue, when the American people re-elected FDR, to a record fourth term, despite not being in the best of health (he had, of course, been battling with polio, and sadly died in 1945); Bernie looks twenty years younger, by comparison. TOP (single) video link:



The latest aggravate Iowa and New Hampshire poll results:

20160117194642605.png


20160117194804441.png


Cenk is really excited (video link) :):



The latest from Bet365:

MqzOHsl.jpg
 
U

User 463088

Banned
Angry Fork said:
I don't think it would be that big of a deal, but even if it was I'd still prefer that struggle over Hilary who is further right than Obama. Expecting Hilary to be progressive is to me a bigger leap of faith than expecting Sanders to win presidency.
Click to expand...

Okay, that's fine you don't think that it's a big deal. I've provided evidence that shows that it would be, in fact, a big deal. I'm not saying you're wrong, but for you to be correct a 74-year old self described Socialist is going to have to change 60 years of thinking on a political ideology within the next 9 months. While winning over people of color, women, and everyone else who doesn't feel the Bern.

However, I have to take issue with the bolded. This is wrong. This is not supported by evidence. The ACU gives a ranking to candidates based on how liberal they are based on their votes. A lower number means you're more liberal. Bernie is ranted at a 6.2. Hillary is ranked at an 8. Obama was at a 10. (The lower the number the more liberal.)

From 538:

Clinton was one of the most liberal members during her time in the Senate. According to an analysis of roll call votes by Voteview, Clinton’s record was more liberal than 70 percent of Democrats in her final term in the Senate. She was more liberal than 85 percent of all members. Her 2008 rival in the Democratic presidential primary, Barack Obama, was nearby with a record more liberal than 82 percent of all members — he was not more liberal than Clinton.

Clinton also has a history of very liberal public statements. Clinton rates as a “hard core liberal” per the OnTheIssues.org scale. She is as liberal as Elizabeth Warren and barely more moderate than Bernie Sanders. And while Obama is also a “hard core liberal,” Clinton again was rated as more liberal than Obama.
Click to expand...

Hillary has always been to the left of Obama. Period.
 
F

FiggyCal

Banned
adam387 said:
Okay, that's fine you don't think that it's a big deal. I've provided evidence that shows that it would be, in fact, a big deal. I'm not saying you're wrong, but for you to be correct a 74-year old self described Socialist is going to have to change 60 years of thinking on a political ideology within the next 9 months. While winning over people of color, women, and everyone else who doesn't feel the Bern.

However, I have to take issue with the bolded. This is wrong. This is not supported by evidence. The ACU gives a ranking to candidates based on how liberal they are based on their votes. A lower number means you're more liberal. Bernie is ranted at a 6.2. Hillary is ranked at an 8. Obama was at a 10. (The lower the number the more liberal.)

From 538:



Hillary has always been to the left of Obama. Period.
Click to expand...

If the opponent is Trump, then I think I'll take Sanders over Clinton.
 
U

User 406

Banned
Poodlestrike said:
I live in OH, though I'm a transplant so not really OhioGAF.
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I think it is cruel and wrong to treat us like unnatural freaks just because we moved to Ohio. Sure, Ohio has a deep seated tradition of people getting the fuck out of the state, sometimes to go as far as outer space, but just because we are oriented the opposite way doesn't make us sick or evil. We are human beings who deserve the same kind of dignity and respect that Marylin Manson gets.
 
F

FiggyCal

Banned
I honestly think Donald Trump has a good shot at winning the presidency now :(

Its actually making me a little sad. Why couldn't Jeb Bush be the one leading the republicans?
 
F

FiggyCal

Banned
teiresias said:
Hey, in the OT there's yet another "I'd rather Trump than Hillary" Bernie-stan. You guys really need to reign these guys in if you want your guy taken seriously as running for leading the Democratic party.
Click to expand...

? Seems like Hillary supporters are the ones that are slacking. There goes a perfectly good vote for a saner candidate because you felt like you were too good to explain why he shouldn't vote for Trump. He went right for Trump too; doesn't that tell you something about the leading candidate for the dems?
 
I

Into

Member
This is the single most stunning poll number on Donald Trump I have seen

It's hard to overstate how remarkable it is that the number of Republicans who could see themselves backing a Trump nomination rose 42 — FORTY TWO — percentage points in 10 months. It's all the more remarkable when you consider that Trump was already totally known by the GOP electorate last spring, meaning that his gains since that time are almost entirely the result of him changing peoples' minds. And it's something else entirely when you consider how Trump got here — a mixture of bravado and anger sprinkled with a dose of controversial statements and seeming gaffes that would have felled lesser candidate many times over.
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Started from the bottom now we hea'.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
FiggyCal said:
? Seems like Hillary supporters are the ones that are slacking. There goes a perfectly good vote for a saner candidate because you felt like you were too good to explain why he shouldn't vote for Trump. He went right for Trump too; doesn't that tell you something about the leading candidate for the dems?
Click to expand...

It says more about the voter in question to be honest.
 
F

FiggyCal

Banned
B-Dubs said:
It says more about the voter in question to be honest.
Click to expand...

Yeah you're right. I'm not thinking straight. But I don't think blaming Bernie is the solution to anything. Certain people do feel a legitimate grievance with the political system and we can't expect everyone to be as well informed as you (generally speaking) personally are.

120v said:
jeb would do a lot better in a general than trump
Click to expand...

Hillary would wreck him. He canot form a single sentence without sounding like joke.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
FiggyCal said:
Yeah you're right. I'm not thinking straight. But I don't think blaming Bernie is the solution to anything. Certain people do feel a legitimate grievance with the political system and we can't expect everyone to be as well informed as you (generally speaking) personally are.
Click to expand...

I can't tell the difference between serious responses and jokes any more, is that a problem?

On a serious note, I agree. Blaming Bernie isn't something we should be doing, if I have I didn't mean to do so.

Into said:
Also a new Cant Stump The Trump 11 mixtape got released, hit the streets just recently

odPk1ja.jpg


Everyone loves those, the more horns you got in your video = better.

The Star Wars shit at the end went a tad too long, but still good!
Click to expand...

I love these so much :lol
 
U

User 406

Banned
FiggyCal said:
? Seems like Hillary supporters are the ones that are slacking. There goes a perfectly good vote for a saner candidate because you felt like you were too good to explain why he shouldn't vote for Trump. He went right for Trump too; doesn't that tell you something about the leading candidate for the dems?
Click to expand...

The Bernie/Hillary slap fight threads have had tons of people, many of them PoliGAFfers, consistently refuting the preposterously hyperbolic assertions that Hillary is pure bitch corporate evil who will destroy America. Hasn't made a damn bit of difference. You can't cure stupid.
 
F

FiggyCal

Banned
Into said:
Also a new Cant Stump The Trump 11 mixtape got released, hit the streets just recently

odPk1ja.jpg


Everyone loves those, the more horns you got in your video = better.

The Star Wars shit at the end went a tad too long, but still good!
Click to expand...

I always look forward to these!

I loved the Star Wars reference. Especially when the guy who makes them inserted Donald saying "you were supposed to be my vice presidential candidate". I lost it.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Favorables among Dems and Independents that lean D:

Hillary: 82/16
Bernie: 74/19

From the YouGov poll.

It's kind of weird how there's this "Democrats lack enthusiasm for Hillary" narrative. It's not like Jeb where he is honestly hated by Republicans.
 
D

disastermouse

Banned
NeoXChaos said:
You either like her or hate. Many on the right hate Obama. That's life.
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I don't hate Hillary. Honestly, if not for Sanders I'd probably have voted for her. The juxtaposition doesn't help. I liked Dean but still voted for Kerry. In '08, I'd have voted for Clinton of she'd have beaten Obama. This year...I just can't do it.
 
D

disastermouse

Banned
teiresias said:
Hey, in the OT there's yet another "I'd rather Trump than Hillary" Bernie-stan. You guys really need to reign these guys in if you want your guy taken seriously as running for leading the Democratic party.
Click to expand...
My head wants to explode whenever I hear this (which is frighteningly often).
 
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