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[Roland_Gunner]

Let's be honest- no one is watching this debate that doesn't know the outcome already

Nate Silver pointed out that Sunday is the night with the most viewers of the week and Sunday at 9:00 is the single most watched hour. If this debate doesn't draw ratings its because people aren't excited about the Democratic race.

 

[disastermouse]

The problem has never been Bernie, it's been his supporters who have taken his campaign as a socio-political panacea. It's easy to just get behind the "it" presidential candidate every 8 years and complain that your opponents have single handedly stifled the revolution; it's much harder to actually do the work necessary to change society at a local and state level.

It has nothing to do with getting behind the 'it' candidates. For what it's worth, I always vote in the midterms and whenever I relocate, one of the first things I do is change my voter registration. I take it seriously.

As for why I won't vote Hillary this year, the difference between Clinton and Sanders is just too great. Sanders reminds me of the sort of candidate the left should have had for a long time, and Hillary doesn't compare well. She and Obama seemed much closer in the types of politicians they are and so voting for either one would have felt comparable. Voting for Clinton this year would just be too unpleasant a reminder that we could have had an actual liberal at a time when an actual liberal is needed.

It's the same reason I don't drink light beer. It's close enough to what I'd like but somehow worse than no beer.

 

[Basileus777]

It has nothing to do with getting behind the 'it' candidates. For what it's worth, I always vote in the midterms and whenever I relocate, one of the first things I do is change my voter registration. I take it seriously.

As for why I won't vote Hillary this year, the difference between Clinton and Sanders is just too great. Sanders reminds me of the sort of candidate the left should have had for a long time, and Hillary doesn't compare well. She and Obama seemed much closer in the types of politicians they are and so voting for either one would have felt comparable. Voting for Clinton this year would just be too unpleasant a reminder that we could have had an actual liberal at a time when an actual liberal is needed.

It's the same reason I don't drink light beer. It's close enough to what I'd like but somehow worse than no beer.

The livelihoods of millions of people don't ride on what beer we drink.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

I'm not seeing the connections tbh. Are you saying socialists are inherently lazy and the tea party isn't? I'd also think it would be better to compare the sctructure of the tea party first (funding/organization) before claiming Bernie supporters don't understand X about politics.

Uh no, my comments are about a conditional group.

The problem has never been Bernie, it's been his supporters who have taken his campaign as a socio-political panacea

People aren't lazy if they don't dedicate huge portions of their free time to community organizing. But self-proclaiming socialists who see support of any other democratic candidate as a moral violation, whose dedication to their revolution can be summed up with "I comment on the internet", those people can slag off.

Like I said, awesome on Seattle for electing a socialist to their City Council. But the people putting in work on those kinds of campaigns aren't naively blustering on about how Bernie is going to change everything because they know better and they do better.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Bernie's released his healthcare plan:

https://berniesanders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Medicare-for-All.pdf

 

[Iolo]

It has nothing to do with getting behind the 'it' candidates. For what it's worth, I always vote in the midterms and whenever I relocate, one of the first things I do is change my voter registration. I take it seriously.

As for why I won't vote Hillary this year, the difference between Clinton and Sanders is just too great. Sanders reminds me of the sort of candidate the left should have had for a long time, and Hillary doesn't compare well. She and Obama seemed much closer in the types of politicians they are and so voting for either one would have felt comparable. Voting for Clinton this year would just be too unpleasant a reminder that we could have had an actual liberal at a time when an actual liberal is needed.

It's the same reason I don't drink light beer. It's close enough to what I'd like but somehow worse than no beer.

America thanks you for President Trump.

 

[Coriolanus]

The livelihoods of millions of people don't ride on what beer we drink.

But they do ride on whether people feel like they could have a beer with someone.

 

[Makai]

I thought you were on Team Bernie lol. Those gifs are supposed to be used ironically.

 

[Sianos]

erasureacer, i challenge you to complete an isidewith.com quiz and for you to post all of your responses and your ending scores

perhaps you will discover something about yourself

 

[East Lake]

Uh no, my comments are about a conditional group.



People aren't lazy if they don't dedicate huge portions of their free time to community organizing. But self-proclaiming socialists who see support of any other democratic candidate as a moral violation, whose dedication to their revolution can be summed up with "I comment on the internet", those people can slag off.

Like I said, awesome on Seattle for electing a socialist to their City Council. But the people putting in work on those kinds of campaigns aren't naively blustering on about how Bernie is going to change everything because they know better and they do better.

Sawant credited her victory in part to Sanders, for creating “enormous momentum” for change that has helped engage young people and alienated workers in politics.

“When was the last time you heard a presidential candidate say we need a political revolution against the billionaire class?” said Sawant. “That is not Hillary Clinton. That is not Barack Obama. That is clearly somebody who is fundamentally different.

“It’s absolutely true that Bernie Sanders putting these questions on the national agenda has really created, and will continue to create, enormous momentum.

“There were so many people who said: ‘I wasn’t paying that much attention to Seattle politics but I’ve been listening to Bernie Sanders’ politics. I’ve been so excited by his call for a political revolution against the millionaire class and I’m looking around me and thinking I need to get involved at a local level.’”

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/06/socialist-kshama-sawant-seattle-bernie-sanders

 

[Makai]

It has nothing to do with getting behind the 'it' candidates. For what it's worth, I always vote in the midterms and whenever I relocate, one of the first things I do is change my voter registration. I take it seriously.

As for why I won't vote Hillary this year, the difference between Clinton and Sanders is just too great. Sanders reminds me of the sort of candidate the left should have had for a long time, and Hillary doesn't compare well. She and Obama seemed much closer in the types of politicians they are and so voting for either one would have felt comparable. Voting for Clinton this year would just be too unpleasant a reminder that we could have had an actual liberal at a time when an actual liberal is needed.

It's the same reason I don't drink light beer. It's close enough to what I'd like but somehow worse than no beer.

You're dying of thirst in a Marxist desert. A magic bartender appears and offers you a drink. You want water, but the bartender only serves beer and motor oil. You refuse to pick one, so he chooses for you.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Pro-Cruz SuperPAC just put out this ad in response to Trump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSv_PBjS3EY

 

[User 463088]

So, I just got a survey call. I didn't catch who it was for but I think it was for some group associated with Rubio.

The first question was brilliant:

"Do you support Obama's failed and weak foreign policy that has allowed ISIS to become stronger and more able to launch attacks on American soil?"

They only asked me about Rubio/Clinton and Strickland/Portman.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

It has nothing to do with getting behind the 'it' candidates. For what it's worth, I always vote in the midterms and whenever I relocate, one of the first things I do is change my voter registration. I take it seriously.

Those are the most basic actions associated with civic responsibility so excuse me if I don't find them praiseworthy or serious. I'm not trying to say people who only do this are bad, far from it, but voting in every election should not considered meritorious behavior.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Pro-Cruz SuperPAC just put out this ad in response to Trump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSv_PBjS3EY

This is bizarre? How does this counter Trump's claims of Cruz being an asshole last week?

 

[User 463088]

This is bizarre? How does this counter Trump's claims of Cruz being an asshole last week?

To be fair, how could you counter a claim of Cruz being an asshole?

 

[Brawndo Addict]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/06/socialist-kshama-sawant-seattle-bernie-sanders

She can give him props (and we can debate on how much Bernie's presence even mattered) but she did it the first time on her own and more than earned her re-election in the eyes of voters. In my opinion of course.

"Socialist politician credits Bernie Sanders after re-election in Seattle"

Sawant’s re-election was also in good part attributable to her following through on a campaign promise on which many doubted she could make good. She won her first election two years ago with a commitment to make Seattle the first major city to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, in the process going from rank outsider to defeating a Democratic incumbent.

Business, big and small, was against the increase. So was the mayor and most of the council. But after her election, Sawant kept the pressure up inside the council chamber with a vigorous and strident campaign outside it, alongside low-paid workers, unions and activists. It pushed the issue to the front of the council agenda and pressured a majority of its members to back the measure, even if the final legislation came with more caveats and a longer time frame for implementation than she wanted.

 

[East Lake]

Anyone find it weird that this thread flies into a rage over one person who won't vote for Hillary and the same people turn around and call everyone else politically uneducated?

 

[disastermouse]

The livelihoods of millions of people don't ride on what beer we drink.

I knew that would be the only thing anyone would focus on. My point is that, as a leftist, Hillary Clinton falls terribly short.

 

[disastermouse]

Those are the most basic actions associated with civic responsibility so excuse me if I don't find them praiseworthy or serious. I'm not trying to say people who only do this are bad, far from it, but voting in every election should not considered meritorious behavior.

I don't consider it meritorious, I simply meant that I'm not the voter who doesn't show up for the midterms or fail to show up for local elections. I wasn't looking for a gold star. I was active in Socialist Alternative for a while. I'm looking for a socialist party to be active in again, but pickings can be slim. I won't phone bank for Democrats.

 

[Sianos]

Anyone find it weird that this thread flies into a rage over one person who won't vote for Hillary and the same people turn around and call everyone else politically uneducated?

anyone else find it weird that someone would advocate "40 more years of a conservative supreme court" and by extension a reversal of the progress lgbt people are finally seeing, a decimation of the social safety net, and further disenchantment of minority voters among other issues as opposed to a candidate that they realistically agree 90% of the way with because they can't handle incremental change and would rather gamble away the hard work of generations of people out of spite and against the wishes of the man they claim to support?

i don't think my "challenge" is unfair at all

 

[East Lake]

She can give him props (and we can debate on how much Bernie's presence even mattered) but she did it the first time on her own and more than earned her re-election in the eyes of voters. In my opinion of course.

I'm not saying he's responsible, but that you have a narrative that you're working backwards to confirm. Your conditional group isn't well defined, you haven't drawn any serious parallels to other grassroots organizations, you haven't given any explanation as to why these people are disengaged, so it's not worth taking what you say seriously.

 

[disastermouse]

To be fair, how could you counter a claim of Cruz being an asshole?

You can't. But it's interesting that Trump is the one leveling the charge.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Don't be fooled by Bernie Sanders-he's a die hard communist

Just putting this here. I know it's the NY Post, However, if you want a taste of what the GOP will throw at Bernie should he get the nomination, here's a nice look at what would be coming.

This isn't even well done. Wait until Trump or one of the bajillion SuperPACs get a hold of it. If the GOP was scared to run against him, we'd see this shit all over the air right now.

That's just a small taste.....

 

[Makai]

Chris Matthews thinks his home state Pennsylvania will be a swing state because Reagan Democrats are foaming at the mouth to vote Trump.

 

[Four_Chamber]

It is impossible -- the persecution complex runs deep within them. Thats why Sanders should win the nomination, though. I think he can deflect a lot of voters from Trump. The fervor he (Trump) creates with his base is extremely scary and Dems should be worried about turnout with a tepid, intellectual candidate like Clinton.

Deflect voters from Trump? Seriously? I've seen years of political comments on GAF recently but this may be the most ludicrous. How somebody can go from pulling for a guy that wants to build a wall across the US-Mexico border and ban Muslim immigration (among other things) to go to Bernie is absolutely crazy.

This fantasy world that some Bernie supporters here are in is hilarious. I'm sure this is what the GOP feels like with the online presence of Ron Paul in the past except some of the hyperbole here may be worse.

 

[disastermouse]

anyone else find it weird that someone would advocate "40 more years of a conservative supreme court" and by extension a reversal of the progress lgbt people are finally seeing, a decimation of the social safety net, and further disenchantment of minority voters among other issues as opposed to a candidate that they realistically agree 90% of the way with because they can't handle incremental change and would rather gamble away the hard work of generations of people out of spite and against the wishes of the man they claim to support?

i don't think my "challenge" is unfair at all

If you're talking about me, I don't agree with 90% of Hillary's views. Heck, I don't agree with more than 50-60% of what Bernie advocates. I just believe that Bernie actually believes those things that align with my political views - at least enough that I'd be willing to throw my vote away on a Democrat candidate of he's the nominee.

 

[watershed]

She can give him props (and we can debate on how much Bernie's presence even mattered) but she did it the first time on her own and more than earned her re-election in the eyes of voters. In my opinion of course.

Some great stuff going on in Seattle. Undeniably this is what real change looks like. A lot of work, a lot of working against established political powers, and some compromise along the way.

 

[Basileus777]

I knew that would be the only thing anyone would focus on. My point is that, as a leftist, Hillary Clinton falls terribly short.

As a leftist in this electoral system given the immense potential for harm a Republican victory in 2016 would create, voting for Jill Steins because Hillary isn't left enough for you is just an act of selfishness. You're choosing self-satisfaction over people's livelihoods.

 

[disastermouse]

That's just a small taste.....

Oohh, scary! I don't think it's very effective, for what it's worth.

 

[watershed]

Oohh, scary! I don't think it's very effective, for what it's worth.

With general election voters? It has the potential to bury him. Consider that Hillary has been under attack from republicans before she even declared her candidacy and is still winning in all head-to-head match ups while the GOP hasn't even touched Bernie because they really want to see him beat Hillary (but assume he won't). Honestly, a Bernie Sanders candidacy in the general election is going to get a much different reaction than he has in the democratic primary.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Deflect voters from Trump? Seriously? I've seen years of political comments on GAF recently but this may be the most ludicrous. How somebody can go from pulling for a guy that wants to build a wall across the US-Mexico border and ban Muslim immigration (among other things) to go to Bernie is absolutely crazy.

This fantasy world that some Bernie supporters here are in is hilarious. I'm sure this is what the GOP feels like with the online presence of Ron Paul in the past except some of the hyperbole here may be worse.

Tea Party left?

 

[Sianos]

If you're talking about me, I don't agree with 90% of Hillary's views. Heck, I don't agree with more than 50-60% of what Bernie advocates. I just believe that Bernie actually believes those things that align with my political views - at least enough that I'd be willing to throw my vote away on a Democrat candidate of he's the nominee.

nah i'm literally quoting erasureacer from the thread in off-topic - he actually said that about preferring "40 more years of a conservative supreme court" to hillary - with me filling in for him what a conservative supreme court would do

i absolutely respect voting for bernie in the primary and will vote for him if he wins the nomination - his views are closer to mine than hillary's at that, i just fear what the republican propoganda machine will do to him - but what i do not respect is this betrayal by supposed lgbt/black/muslim "allies" that if they cannot get everything they want immediately then they will back trump

 

[JesseEwiak]

Some great stuff going on in Seattle. Undeniably this is what real change looks like. A lot of work, a lot of working against established political powers, and some compromise along the way.

Also, a slighttttttttlyyyyyy different demographic than the greater United States. As somebody who lives here, even the most conservative member of the Seattle City Council would be a flaming liberal in most parts of the country.

 

[User 463088]

Jeff Weaver is a fucking dumbass.

Regardless of who he supports. He's just an idiot.

 

[East Lake]

anyone else find it weird that someone would advocate "40 more years of a conservative supreme court" and by extension a reversal of the progress lgbt people are finally seeing, a decimation of the social safety net, and further disenchantment of minority voters among other issues as opposed to a candidate that they realistically agree 90% of the way with because they can't handle incremental change and would rather gamble away the hard work of generations of people out of spite and against the wishes of the man they claim to support?

i don't think my "challenge" is unfair at all

*None of which will happen over one vote.

 

[disastermouse]

As a leftist in this electoral system given the immense potential for harm a Republican victory in 2016 would create, voting for Jill Steins because Hillary isn't left enough for you is just an act of selfishness. You're choosing self-satisfaction over people's livelihoods.

Yes. I think you've just discovered what politics is. You vote for the candidate that aligns most closely with your interests. Doing otherwise is silly. Even a voice of dissent is better than no voice at all.

I don't owe you anything and I certainly don't owe your favorite candidate anything. You're the person responsible for advocating for your candidate and your interests - that's certainly not my job. From my point of view, neither you nor your candidate have been particularly compelling.

 

[watershed]

Also, a slighttttttttlyyyyyy different demographic than the greater United States. As somebody who lives here, even the most conservative member of the Seattle City Council would be a flaming liberal in most parts of the country.

Of course. I'm not denying that. I'm from Seattle myself. But Sawant had to overcome a ton of opposition, as did the entire 15 movement, in order to make this law. It's a major liberal accomplishment from outside the democratic establishment.

 

[Muzy72]

Being a Hillary supporter in college is hard. Everyone trying to shame me into voting Sanders in the primary. :S

 

[GnawtyDog]

Oohh, scary! I don't think it's very effective, for what it's worth.

It all depends on who sees it. Not your opinion or mine.

 

[disastermouse]

With general election voters? It has the potential to bury him. Consider that Hillary has been under attack from republicans before she even declared her candidacy and is still winning in all head-to-head match ups while the GOP hasn't even touched Bernie because they really want to see him beat Hillary (but assume he won't). Honestly, a Bernie Sanders candidacy in the general election is going to get a much different reaction than he has in the democratic primary.

No doubt - I just don't think this is a year where attacking a leftist is going to be very effective. If you're a committed Republican, nothing in those ads will be new. If you're an independent, you've still been exposed to the 'oh-mah-gerd-Obama's-a-Kenyan-socialist' crazy machine for years and years. It's losing its effectiveness.

 

[Sianos]

*None of which will happen over one vote.

i'm going to take this as tacit agreement, since you haven't exactly refuted anything i've said

i'm not going to lose sleep over erasureacer's vote, but i'd also like for liberals as a collective to get their shit together so we can actually win midterms and start making some progress piece by piece instead of demanding a deus ex machina and sulking when it doesn't happen to the detriment of those in need - hillary supporters refusing to support bernie if he was the nominee would be just as foolish in my eyes

perhaps i am more affected than people like erasureacer because the people i care about have more to lose - i'm not afforded the luxury of being unaffected by the end result

and i am morbidly curious about what his results would be and what an impact that would have on him

 

[RustyNails]

Yes. I think you've just discovered what politics is. You vote for the candidate that aligns most closely with your interests. Doing otherwise is silly. Even a voice of dissent is better than no voice at all.

No, that's not voting for a candidate in United States ever meant. That's how you end up as green party.

I don't owe you anything and I certainly don't owe your favorite candidate anything. You're the person responsible for advocating for your candidate and your interests - that's certainly not my job. From my point of view, neither you nor your candidate have been particularly compelling.

In other words, you're selfish.

 

[disastermouse]

It all depends on who sees it. Not your opinion or mine.

Sure. I just don't think Red baiting is effective anymore.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

Pro-Cruz SuperPAC just put out this ad in response to Trump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSv_PBjS3EY

What is this shit? That's the best they can do? Carson needs to go after him and say his tax plan does not promote judeo-Christian values.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

If you're talking about me, I don't agree with 90% of Hillary's views. Heck, I don't agree with more than 50-60% of what Bernie advocates. I just believe that Bernie actually believes those things that align with my political views - at least enough that I'd be willing to throw my vote away on a Democrat candidate of he's the nominee.

They're referencing Erasure, something to that effect about the SC was said in the OT poll thread.

I don't consider it meritorious, I simply meant that I'm not the voter who doesn't show up for the midterms or fail to show up for local elections. I wasn't looking for a gold star. I was active in Socialist Alternative for a while. I'm looking for a socialist party to be active in again, but pickings can be slim. I won't phone bank for Democrats.

I'm honestly not trying to malign you, I consider not voting quite different from voting for your opposition out of spite (although I might disagree about differences in strategic efficacy between the two given our first past the post system, the intentions are quite different). I also don't think you're the type of person who sees a Bernie victory as a magic threshold for change (although I haven't been following this thread or your posts very closely as of late).

 

[GnawtyDog]

No, that's not voting for a candidate in United States ever meant. That's how you end up as green party.

In other words, you're selfish.

Not really. He's exercising his right as he sees fit. He's just not being rational. It's actually a worse label.

Unless his rationale is "things must get worse before they get better type of rationale"....which is still irrational but you know, different perspectives and all that.

 

[User1608]

Honestly if you're a so called progressive/liberal but are willing to throw the rest of us under the bus because you didn't get your way, then well, whatever. I mean, maybe I shouldn't say jack considering I can't even participate in the electoral process, but damn. Admittedly I am pretty fucking vulnerable/screwed in the event a Republican, in the vein of Cruz/Trump win the Presidency, so I have a lot to lose, and I'll damn sure voice my concerns and opinion. At least my siblings are cool with whoever wins. But you know what, vote however you want. If you truly believe in your principles, then don't forfeit them. I have faith good will come over time to everybody.

EDIT: I like this article on Trump supporters, it explains why Sanders / Trump have weird overlaps on supporters

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/donald-trump-2016-authoritarian-213533

Wow, kind of chilling after reading it. May cooler heads and demographics outside his targeted audience show up in huge numbers to prevent a Trump Presidency.

 

[Aaron Strife]

*None of which will happen over one vote.

538 more Gore voters in 2000 in Florida would have stopped the Bush presidency.

But it's just one vote right.

 

[disastermouse]

No, that's not voting for a candidate in United States ever meant. That's how you end up as green party.

In other words, you're selfish.

What's the point of voting if you're not expressing your actual views? Is it selfish because I'm not voting in favor of your preferences? It's not my job as a citizen or a voter to represent your views.

What's also odd is this argument is paired with the argument that it's actually in my best interests to vote for the Democrat candidate 'no matter what' because it'll best advance my interests. You appeal to my self interest but repudiate it when it doesn't align with yours. Who's selfish here? I think it's selfish to tell someone they need to vote for your candidate even though that candidate is woefully inadequate in advancing my interests - all of my interests, moral, financial, and civic. I'm not 'taking one for the team' because I'm not on your team anymore. Your team sucks.